The Observation Deck

<<<Jim O'Bryan snip>>>>>>
Community Currency - Was laughed down when Dennis Dunn suggested it. Today that currency would be worth 4-5 times as much as when issued. That is a staggering number, especially when needing to pay teachers and city employees. The impact would have set this city free of many of the headaches we currently have. Last fall Ken again made the push for Community Currency looking for people willing to kick in $200,000 to start it off. Even then the currency held would be worth $600,000 as it was backed with silver. Not enough to avoid taxes, but enough to use for incentives with city workers.
<<<<<<end of snip>>>>>>
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Jim

I must have been on vacation when Dennis Dunn suggested it, so I was not laughing then. I AM laughing NOW. I also was laughing when I was told he was leaving government life (ended up leaving an elected position for an appointed position, I believe), but that is another topic. Anyway, I used the search function on this site and could not find anything on community currency, although it is possible that it is buried somewhere. I tried Google, too, with no luck: " Your search - 'dennis dunn' 'community currency' - did not match any documents."

Is there any kind of proposal in electronic format from Dennis Dunn or Ken (Warren?) for community currency in Lakewood? Most community currencies die, including Cuyahoga Hours, for multiple reasons (lack of acceptance, over-expansion of the money supply, burnt out volunteers, etc.). Even the ones touted to be successful are questionable. However, I think community currency or some kind of LETS (especially one that's internet-based) could potentially be a way to increase Lakewood's contribution to GDP. Lakewood is very unique in its layout and population density. I sincerely would be interested in, at the least, purchasing some Lakewood Loonies (not be be confused with the surging Canadian Loonie that is almost at par with the US Dollar) or patronizing businesses in LETS.

I have never heard of a community currency backed with silver or gold, although one may very well exist. If you (or anyone) are implying that you knew then that silver was such a good investment, I trust that you personally made a large investment into commodities. Hindsight is 20/10, especially when it comes to investments. Even Warren Buffet lost $900+ million in 2005 on currencies (see page 16) :
http://berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2005ltr.pdf

If you are recommending the city invest heavily in commodities, maybe you should apply for a position on the state workers comp investment committee of coingate, mdl-gate, and fixed income-gate fame. I hear they may have some openings.

Seriously, though, I think you and the Observer are an asset to Lakewood, even if I disagree 90% of the time with the opinions of you and most of the regulars on here. This is a great site to discuss radical ideas.

Doug

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Proud Lakewood renter on a message board full of renter haters

Might help if if you (properly) spell his name Denis.

Thank you.

Now Google shows one link: an anti-capitalist site with next to no information, but better than nothing. It says that Councilman Dunn was exploring local currency.http://ohiodemocracy.org/?q=node/98/#local_currencies

Doug

awwwww.... Doug

I am not a renter hater... really. And I sure there are many others on here who recognize your value to our community as well!!

Peace,
Ex-renter Charyn

Doug


Disagreement is healthy. Debate is good.

There are two forms of currency that I know about with my limited knowledge perhaps we can get Ken Warren, Dennis Dunn or Elizabeth Kucinich to jump in.

One is just a glorified barter system. The other that we have been kicking around is one backed with gold, silver or other precious commodity. Unfortunately with the run up of gold and silver it might be too late for that. However there has been some thought to and even more radical backing.

One of the problems as I see it is that American currency is no longer backed with anything more than a handshake. Between the Super Bill and this administration printing money when ever need it, it is hard to even know where or what it is really worth.

The last version was based on silver about 20 months ago, and that was affectionately known as Grinders. That was the closest anything in this city came to launch.

One problem is that neither a Federal Bank, nor city government can launch community currency. So it is yet another project that must be launched from a citizen based effort.

When Dennis Dunn was working on it, I remember that many were saying, "great now I need a second wallet." Not realizing that it is a great way to keep money in Lakewood, pay bonuses and incentives for government workers, and if backed by the right thing even valuable outside of Lakewood.

Thanks for joining the discussion.


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Doug:

Just got home, and I am crunched for time right now. And this is a very long story.

I attempted to gauge interest levels in various community currency models with Lakewood merchants like Jim O’Bryan, whose network is the most connected to other merchants. He's a hub.

Inquiries among individuals convinced me there insufficient trust in an unbacked (LETS) model.

I contacted a libertarian prof at American University who had written a pretty good book that included a chapter on backed currency ideas, with one issued by certain types of community banks. He stands ready to help us implement. As will Tom Grieco. There are various ideological and practical differences, flavors, if you will in the community currency movement.

Anyway, to get untrusting local merchants into a local CC groove, I suggested an experiment: issuance of a note marked at a value of $10 and redeemable in two years for one U.S. Silver Eagle.

I thought it would be easy to get 200 people with a $1000 each to begin the experiment. Dream on....

I had hoped First Federal of Lakewood could issue such a note. However, it could not due to banking restrictions related to its charter.

Of course, the idea is flawed in many ways.

First, there is very little interest among potential implementers.

Obviously, as silver goes up there would be hoarding and a reluctance to spend.

As you might suspect, the Lakewood Observer is the first community building instigation, among several elements in a Visionary Alignment, which includes community currency much later down the road.

Lakewood Public Library has organized some general resources.

http://www.lkwdpl.org/futuretools/05_Spring.htm

http://www.lkwdpl.org/city/lakewooddollars/index.html

Again, I could go on and on about some of these ideas, and the explicit limitations I have ascertained through various inquiries among local merchants. Until the critical mass of implementers is assembled, I can’t see pushing it. Such experiments are fraught with hazards, anyway.

I’d be very happy to converse with you about CC and LETS, and what you might think possible for Lakewood, maybe at bella dubby, when the Lakewood Observer crew gathers.

I am sorry you feel there is little support for renters on the deck. I think renting can make economic sense, practical sense, and sometimes one has no other choice. There’s often a tension in places between owners and renters. And I recall when I was a renter in an affluent New Jersey suburb, living at the bottom of the hill, and sometimes feeling people back off when they found out where I was living, that I lacked means to arrive in the promised land of property ownership.

The cabbage stuffed in each person's 'nap sack' of privilege creates barriers, no doubt, barriers the Lakewood Observer is attempting to overcome with a simple good neighborhood vibe.

Although I own and owe a mortgage on my home, I try not to feel too exalted in relationship to persons who rent. That said, I offer my sincere comradeship to you through the Lakewood Observer, and hope we can probe the community currency instigation in conversation sometime.

Kenneth Warren

DougHuntingdon wrote:Proud Lakewood renter on a message board full of renter haters

Oh, I missed that!

I rented in Lakewood for 25 years and will probably be a renter later on in life. I lived in some spots for one or two years, in others nearly 10.

I enjoyed living in a couple of apartment buildings and in both side-by-side and up-and-down doubles.

So, no renter hating from me!

dl meckes wrote:

DougHuntingdon wrote:Proud Lakewood renter on a message board full of renter haters

Oh, I missed that!

I rented in Lakewood for 25 years and will probably be a renter later on in life. I lived in some spots for one or two years, in others nearly 10.

I enjoyed living in a couple of apartment buildings and in both side-by-side and up-and-down doubles.

So, no renter hating from me!

Doug

I am no renter hater either. Rented for most of my life and now have rental property. I LOVE RENTERS. However I have been on the record saying that "owners" have more of a vested interest in the city on the whole, than "renters" who are somewhat transient in nature on the whole. Though I also mirror DL, and sometimes her rental. I lived on the lake, way more streets than I care to think about, and even a couple basements.

Do you feel that a fair statement about vested interest on the whole?


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Speaking philosophically, I do find your theory of property owner vested interest as somewhat limited to the realm of "real" values locked to property.

It's an easy generalization, based on material privilege, which can lead one to ignore individuals and their actual life conditions.

Even in the "city of homes" I think indivuals can invest their head, heart and soul in a city and still not own real property.

The affordable housing and quality of life we enjoy in Lakewood are marvelous and challenging to sustain.

As the poet Ezra Pound once said, Money isn't everything, but it's more than anything else.

So I hear what you are saying about the monetized vested interest.

And I know you would not let that grub stake get in the way of actual relations with renters.

Your vested interest rap just makes you sound like a fat cat with a elephantine attitude.

Keep it up and you might rouse the renting class to organize for rent control.

Cheers,

Kenneth Warren

It is funny to me that I hear people say that renters have no vested interest in the city. We are currently renting, although it is temporary. I feel that I am an involved citizen and I know of many people who are renters and are very involved. Mostly what I hear is that renters don't care about issues because they aren't paying property taxes. That argument is just ridiculous. Even though I don't write out a check I am still paying property taxes, our landlord certainly is not paying them out of his own pocket. I must also add that I have never felt like a lower class citizen on this board due to my renter status, it is mainly at public forums that I feel and hear the renter hater statements. I just hope people realize that due to the nature of Lakewood citizens not everyone here will be a property owner.

Ken

I look at it from two points. I will take into account that people like DL, Bill, myself and others were just as dedicated to the Lakewood Lifestyle as renters as we are now. After all, we went through decades of renting and then bought here and opened our businesses here.

All of this is a generalization which is hard. But as a renter I would have no problem moving from Hathaway to Gladys to Winton to Euclid. As a property owner it becomes a little tougher and with a business even more so.

Look at it like a marriage. Certainly we can live together with every aspect of marriage life. But throw in the "contract of marriage" and the prospect of just moving on takes on a whole new much tougher set of circumstance. Again it is hard to say what this does to the overall dedication to the marriage but I imagine on many it has at least some impact. Again vested interest.

But it is not a fat cat thing, and the city has as many or more fine renters as homeowners. Hopefully many of these fine renters will stay and "invest" in property, open businesses and take part.

So am I understanding that you do not believe in "general" that a homeowner and business owner has more invested in the community. Of course other huge commitments are family, schooling, work, and lifestyle.

Am I wrong.

Many people do not live in the same house over five years, yet they are somehow judged differently than a renter who might have the same longevity in an apartment or double.

Some people may own property and never engage in civic buy-in. I think there are any number of investments in the community that residents make and I think it's unfortunate to judge community buy-in by who pays the property taxes.

Some people may own property and never engage in civic buy-in. I think there are any number of investments in the community that residents make and I think it's unfortunate to judge community buy-in by who pays the property taxes.

We had neighbors like this. They did not send their son to school in Lakewood, they did not work in Lakewood, they did not shop in Lakewood, they did absolutely nothing but live in Lakewood. They didn't see anything worthwhile about our city except that their home was paid off and they didn't want to bother with moving. Now personally I think a renter who contributes to the city by being active is far more of an asset than a home owner who could care less about the city they live in. And once again renters do pay property taxes, its just included in the rent.

Danielle- this is the point I was attempting to make. Property owners are the ones who directly pay the property taxes, but renters do pay their share of the taxes through their rent.

I do not believe that how or by whom property taxes are paid is a reasonable way to judge our neighbors.

Another point would be that a number of rental properties in Lakewood are not owned by individuals that reside in Lakewood. These individuals have little or no vested interest in whether or not the schools are raking below par as long as they are getting their 700/month.

The renters in those houses/apartments, however, have a considerable amount of interest in what is happening in the community and what the plan is for the future.

Add to the mix the corporate owners and you have an even larger base of owners with little interest.

FFT
~Charyn