The Observation Deck

It will cost the City of Lakewood 250 million dollars over the next 25 years to accomodate new clean water rules, maintain water and sewer lines and replace aging infrastructure.

Would you rather share that expense with 70 other communities?

The City of Cleveland has offered to assume that responsibility in exchange for in increase in water rates that we would have to pay anyway. Should we accept that offer?

I am not a fan of regionalization. On the other hand does it make economic sense to maintain our own water department?

Bill--- Here's a couple of points to consider about Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson's proposal.

First, it applies only to water not sewer. And, apparently there will be differences as to how cities which are already in the Cleveland Water System will be treated as compared to master meter cities such as Lakewood. The best that I could figure is that the master meter cities are an afterthought in his proposal and there isn't much in it for them (us).

And, it is significant that there are several regional sewer districts as well as local sewer districts serving the area because coordination of infrastructure replacement is essential to avoid waste.

In the article Cleveland Water boasted of the money spent in Cleveland on water main replacement. Just drive down Madison Avenue from W117 to W.65 and you get an idea of what happens when you do things backwards like Cleveland Water. Madison was rebuilt less than ten years ago-- new sidewalks, curbs, and street. Then, came water main replacement several years after. As your vehicle dips into patch section after patch section used to gain access to the lines you quickly realize that this work has to be done simultaneously and coordinated.

When the Lakewood Engineer evaluates a street for repaving water and sewer conditions are critical elements of the process. He will not recommend a repaving if it's going to be torn up a short time later for water or sewer. It has to be done at the same time to save money and produce a long lasting finished job.

Cleveland Water has a very visible track record that you can see and your car can feel. They have demonstrated that they can't hack it. Lakewood will have to pay one way or another. Let's do it right and keep the quality here like we've come to demand and expect.

Stan Austin

Stan Austin wrote:Bill---
In the article Cleveland Water boasted of the money spent in Cleveland on water main replacement. Just drive down Madison Avenue from W117 to W.65 and you get an idea of what happens when you do things backwards like Cleveland Water. Madison was rebuilt less than ten years ago-- new sidewalks, curbs, and street.
Stan Austin

All good points.

I see the City of Cleveland is ripping up the newly paved section of 117th and Lake to put in a new section of sewer. No planning there.

Do you think it would be less costly for Lakewood to share the EPA mandated expenses with other cities?

Will the new water rate increases planned by Cleveland make it cheaper to provide our own water?

I don't have an opinion on this, only questions.

I have heard various arguments on why we should and should not regionalize our water department. The one thing that makes me wary is that I really don't think the City of Cleveland does anything well. I just can't imagine that any dollars we could save would be worth it. I am not an expert at all on this, I can only go by what I see going on in Cleveland. And quickly frankly I really see little to like.

As far as regionalization in general, I don't think it is a good idea if Cleveland is part of the equation. If Lakewood, Rocky River, Bay Village, Westlake, and North Olmsted banded together to regionalize a particular service (like wifi or peninsula construction), for instance, MAYBE it would make sense.

All government entities have problems, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that Cleveland is near the bottom of the efficiency totem pole, regardless of the specific service.

I am not an expert on Lakewood's water department, but I tend to agree with Danielle, also. Many suburbs are now between a rock and a hard place, being pushed around by dying, corrupt cities (Youngstown, Cleveland, Detroit, and others), when it comes to water. They can either let themselves continue to be pushed around, or they can spend an astronomical amount of money starting their own water system--a lose-lose situation.

From the city's website, I *assume* Lakewood does not buy water from Cleveland. Excuse my ignorance, but where do we get it? Rocky River (the river not the city)? "The City of Lakewood owns and operates its water distribution system, consisting of approximately; 110 miles of water mains, 3,000 main line valves, 1,600 fire hydrants, and 14,400 water meters."

Doug

Doug

Lakewood id a "Master Meter" city. We buy our water, in bulk, from Cleveland, then resell it to our residents.

As we analyze this situation, be wary. Sewer service is very different from Water service. Cleveland is talking about regionalizing Water....not sewer. Admittedly, we have a huge EPA mandated sewer improvement ahead, but this regionalization of the water system will not pass the costs of sewer renovations over to Cleveland (as I read the info).

I think I'd rather build a pumping station and filtration plant and go into the water supply business ourselves.....I think some of that infastructure is actually in place (Help me out here OB).

Jeff

Jeff, I agree with you. Either get in to the water business all the way and compete with Cleveland if we believe we can do it better and less expensively in the long run. Or get out of it all together.

I could also see doing a joint project with the West Shore communities of Rocky River and BayVillage.

Lynn Farris wrote:..

...... Either get in to the water business all the way and compete with Cleveland if we believe we can do it better and less expensively in the long run. Or get out of it all together.

That's a bold vision. We don't do bold visions.

Perhaps someone could form a committee.

What is the annual budget for next year, without major rate increases?

Budget for our Sewer system.....or water? The rate increase only applies to water..not to our sewer system and its costs. The proposed WATER system takeover would have no impact on our SEWER budget.

Jeff

Jeff and Doug

This are all very complex issues and I will try to get members of the Water Treatment plant to jump in as some are on board. One I know is laid up with a bad back.

Water we drink - Comes from Cleveland in bulk. However while other cities are taking options on Lakewood water Rights I have been told with out contract with the city, Lakewood is forbidden(costs) to do the same. This is a huge potential nightmare down the road. As water becomes the new oil. I put it imagine Kuwait not being allowed to drill for oil! Lakewood needs to secure our water rights, but it will be tricky.

Sewage Treatment - I have seen one plan where we could process sewage for the cities around us and make as much as an addition $5 million a year. It would not effect our capabilities and outside of actual sewers being run to the plant would not cost anymore money.

If we regionalized, we would loose both options to the region.

Doug I am a huge fan of cities working together to reduce costs through bulk purchasing. I can even see some benefits in dome other regional programs, like Judge Pat Carroll's intervention jail for people arrested with drug/alcohol problems or mental illness from entering the prison population directly. But in most cases Lakewood looses big in regionalism. This would be the number on reason most see Lakewood not Cleveland as the key to regionalzation. Well funded schools, libraries and city departments mean more funds for them and less of everything for us.

Lakewood is very unique, and has so many things we can capitalize on that will save us, while the region goes down. One is our density which is often quoted but rarely utilized. Lakewood should be a prime target for a group coming in and hard wiring the city with black wire. The cost because of density would be nothing compared to trying to do it in Bay, Westlake, even Parma.

I still think WiFi is better handled by businesses than governments.

Regionalism is good for the county but generally bad for Lakewood.


FWIW

I am a bit miffed at the complete refusal to even explore what options are there. Northeast Ohio has lost over 9% of its workforce in five years. Population is declining, and we in Lakewood develop a bunker mentality that we can do everything better and by ourselves. If this is so, where is the mass influx of population ? why do we have empty storefronts ?

If Lakewood really wants to move forward as a Progressive city it would be on the forefront of regionalism. Instead, the mayors of Strongsville and Pepper Pike (two upscale suburbs) have taken the lead. I've got news for you all - if Lakewood tried to merge with Rocky River we would be turned down.

At the very least, we need to explore issues of regionalization because if the region improves, Lakewood improves. Or, we can sit on the sidelines and watch the decline.

David Scott wrote:I am a bit miffed at the complete refusal to even explore what options are there. Northeast Ohio has lost over 9% of its workforce in five years. Population is declining, and we in Lakewood develop a bunker mentality that we can do everything better and by ourselves. If this is so, where is the mass influx of population ? why do we have empty storefronts ?

If Lakewood really wants to move forward as a Progressive city it would be on the forefront of regionalism. Instead, the mayors of Strongsville and Pepper Pike (two upscale suburbs) have taken the lead. I've got news for you all - if Lakewood tried to merge with Rocky River we would be turned down.

At the very least, we need to explore issues of regionalization because if the region improves, Lakewood improves. Or, we can sit on the sidelines and watch the decline.

David


Just curious...

We have one of the best police departments and fire departments in the county. How does Lakewood get better when we pay for East Cleveland's poolice and fire.

Yesterday I watched as school levey after school levey got turned down. Meanwhile Lakewood has almost never had a problem with passing a levy. How do our schools get better?

The library one of the bets in the nation. How does this get better with regionalism?

To me the answer for all of this is easy. Call your friends in Bay, NO, Shaker Heights, etc. And ask them what they think of Lakewood.

Now please tell me how regionalism, a less effective police and fire department helps to fill those store fronts again?


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Mr O’Brian

It is your opinion that Lakewood has the best police, fire, library, schools, etc. Most folks will say the same thing about their city. I’ve asked people in Shaker, Beachwood, Westlake, etc about their opinion of Lakewood. Most say it seems like a nice place with high taxes and a school system on the decline. I’ve asked people in Rocky River what they would think about Lakewood and Rocky River merging, and everyone thought it would be good for Lakewood and bad for Rocky River.

I don’t have a lot of experience with the Lakewood Police or Fire. They seem to be like most cities, competent but not exceptional. I couldn’t even tell you the name of our Police Chief so he seems to keep a low profile. Again, that is not bad. I really don’t see them doing much of anything. Similar to other cities. The library is fine for my occasional use. I’m not up there every day and I don’t utilize most of the programs. Lakewood could have the greatest library system in the world and I am still more concerned with can I check a book out of the South Euclid library with my Lakewood card.

I like living in Lakewood. It is convenient to the Shoreway and I-90. I like the old houses. But I also realize property value is stagnant. I could increase my property value by 10-15% simply by picking it up and moving it to Rocky River and another 10-15% by moving it to Westlake. And both of these areas have better retail.

The point I was making is that the consensus is the merging with Cleveland water would be a bad thing, but nobody bothered to give it a second thought. This is the attitude that is hurting the city and having a non-visionary mayor isn’t helping. I am like most residents, I want my property value to increase : I want my utilities to stabilize : I want my property taxes to be reasonable.

Lastly, we need to look at a bigger picture. What is good for the region is good for Lakewood. Lakewood will always be seen as a part of Cleveland, so why not try to make the Cleveland area into a growing, thriving, hip place to be ?

David

See my note on the stand off. Chief Malley prefers to work instead of talking. He is a good man.

I think all of the groups you mentioned are good. But that is not why I am arguing the point. The fact is they are well funded. It is the money we will loose. Take a ride around town and or around the county, Lakewood, for all of our problems is light years ahead of many suburbs. When compared to almost every city out there Lakewood would loose. So if Lakewood comes up on the short side of more than half of the cities out there, then we lose in Regionalism. When we lose against 85% of the cities, then the loss become devastating to Lakewood.

How does one "test" the waters of regionalism?

It is a very slippery slope, that will cost a fortune to reverse. There is the problem in a nutshell

Like I said bulk buying is obvious, from there services and police! Terrible. A simple look is Health and Human Services. Do we really want to give up our restaurant inspectors for Cleveland's?! Regionalism is like marriage. If you go into half way it will fail, and if you go in full the divorce will break you and send you home to sleep on Mom's couch.

In an area where there is a bunch of regional "towns" maybe the best selling point is we are different. I have seen a very simple plan for Lakewood. It was design to underline out unique situation. It make Lakewood very strong no matter what happens in Northeast Ohio. Finally I have no reason to believe we cannot join the regional train down the road.



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