The Observation Deck

I haven't heard about the proposed smoking ban that gets trotted out every so often. With all the discussion around bars and "punch palaces" out there I wonder what the Observers think about a ban. As a non-smoker, my only concern is a loss of business but are there that many smokers any more that would flock to smokier pastures? Or are there more barflies out there that would love to bar hop more often but can't because they have a hard enough time keeping cancer at bay just inhaling Cleveland area air let alone fend off Malboros and Camels?

Has there been evidence in other areas that have enacted such bans that attendance at bars goes down significantly? And by significantly I mean makes the bar have to close its doors?

Just curious what thoughts are on this. Is it a Privacy right (bar ownership being a private endeavor) or is it a Public Good concern? Is it better for the local economy or worse?


Phil

The Lakewood smoking ban was probably the single stupidest idea I have heard in my 20 years of Lakewood politics.

It is lunacy like this that makes the Democratic party look bad. As a lifelong and devout Democrat, I fear the inevitable backlash that a statewid ban would result against our party.

Not only is it completely devoid of common sense (Hey, you can destroy your hearts and livers, but not your lungs!), but it also represents an obscene violation of property rights. At a time when our party needs to reach out to middle america, blue-state coastal lunacy like this only alienates voters.

At the Lakewood level, this was clearly a horrible, horrible idea. People would move to bars in other towns, leaving us with more empty storefronts. Anyone that tries to tell you a ban wouldn't hurt local bars is insulting your intelligence.

A smoking ban would push drinkers out into the parking lots and sidewalks even more than they are, further aggravating neighborhood problems.

The fact that our local Lakewood Republican was on board with this idiocy is mystifying.

I find it interesting that smokers and smoking have become to liberals what gays and homosexulity are to conservatives. These must be tough times for gay smokers....apparently everyone hates them.

Mike is 100% correct.

Big difference between us doing it and the state.

But just to throw some gas on the fire. I still have not seen one second hand smoke study that isn't slanted, or tainted bu the people paying for the study.

Last week I was at a presentation by a bus company that had paid for the study. Guess what the results were? Busses are not just healthy, and America's cure for everything possibly including the Big C. the city would be even better if we gave them money to promote themselves. Who would of ever thought. I me the green people said they were nasty polluters that should be put out to pasture. To help I could of given them money!


FWIW

Mike, you bring up some interesting points. Some make sense, others are wanting for proof.

People would move to bars in other towns, leaving us with more empty storefronts. Anyone that tries to tell you a ban wouldn't hurt local bars is insulting your intelligence.

Do we have any evidence of this from other areas? What is insulting to intelligence to think that this could have the reverse effect? Sure, SMOKING people might move to bars in other towns but at this point I think non-smokers far outnumber smokers (5:1 when last I looked). One could argue that to have smoking in bars hurts local bars and to think otherwise is to insult one's intelligence!

I looked on the CDC site and found this quote on a study done in El Paso, Texas, bars and the possible effects of a smoking ban:

No decline in total restaurant or bar revenues occurred in El Paso, Texas, after the city's smoking ban was implemented on January 2, 2002. These findings are consistent with the results of studies in other municipalities that determined smoke-free indoor air ordinances had no effect on restaurant revenues (2,5--8 ). Despite claims that these laws especially might reduce alcoholic beverage revenues (2), the mixed-beverage revenue analyses indicate that sales of alcoholic beverages were not affected by the El Paso smoking ban.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5307a2.htm

This seems to fly in the face of the "business will suffer." This doesn't mean that it can't happen but it certainly points to the fact that it isn't automatically going to spell doom. Except to smokers.

A smoking ban would push drinkers out into the parking lots and sidewalks even more than they are, further aggravating neighborhood problems.

To fix this a bit, it would push smokers into parking lots. They won't be drinkers because to drink in the parking lot would be illegal. They can drink or smoke but not both (unless at home). I think the problems in neighborhoods is not parking lots as much as it is the lack of parking that forces people to park far away from the bar down side-streets. This won't change anything. Smokers smoke. They probably already smoke when they leave the bar, on their walk back to their cars and in their cars. Why would this change?

I find it interesting that smokers and smoking have become to liberals what gays and homosexulity are to conservatives. These must be tough times for gay smokers....apparently everyone hates them.

That last bit is pretty funny! But this is pretty different stuff, not to take this into the area of homosexuality. We could argue the choice thing (you choose to smoke but you don't choose to be attracted to people of the same gender, for example), smoking will more than likely kill you (it did my father) and increases the chances of those dying around you (thanks, Dad!) whereas being gay has no known side effect on anyone other than enraging Republicans. But still...gay smokers can't get a break!

Not only is it completely devoid of common sense (Hey, you can destroy your hearts and livers, but not your lungs!), but it also represents an obscene violation of property rights.

This has two points in it. I agree with the latter (it is the ONLY part of the ban that I have problems with right now) but the former argument doesn't work for me. If smoking only damaged the smoker's lungs I would be fine with that...people should be able to kill themselves in any variety of manners...as long as others don't get hurt in the process. The fact that the smoker's habit becomes my problem whenever I walk into a bar is the problem that makes me consider the ban a good public health thing.

Personally, typical smoke in a bar doesn't bother me much. I even enjoy a cigar myself from time to time. But on the other hand, it isn't my bar to make that decision and therein lies the rub for me. But it isn't COMPLETELY a private venue. It has to conform to public inspection by the Health Department. It must work under a liquor license that is issued to it from local, public, governing bodies. Truly PRIVATE would be my basement, the beer I buy and the people I invite. With or without their cigars. This is a tough argument and discussion but far from "lunacy" or insulting to intelligence.

Hmmmm...

Looks like Phil is drinking the Rob Reiner cool aid.

Spare me the "it doesn't hurt business" crap.
If non-smoking is so popular, why the heck don't we have "non-smoking" bars?

We have many, many types of bars in the Cleveland area...sports bars, gay bars, singles bars, Irish bars, nudie bars etc. None of which are government forced.

City council never got together and said "bars must show Browns games on Sunday" or "bars must have ladies' night". These things happen because the market drives it.

If I am wrong, prove it. Buy a bar and make is smokeless. If the fringe lefties (and Demro) are right, you'll make millions.

Your parking lot comment makes no sense, and makes me wonder if you have ever set foot in a bar. The ban will make DRUNK smokers step outside to smoke. While they are there, why they will be loud, and many of them may decide to use the non-existent bathroom (i.e. fire hydrant, city garbage can, tree, whatever) while they are out there. No doubt that in many cases words may be exchanged and fists may fly. Hello neighborhood disturbance!

The gay thing was not a joke. It was a real insight on the hate that leftists harbor for tobacco and smokers. Too many coastal dems look down at smokers like they do NASCAR fans, country music, churchgoers, etc. Part of the whole "cultural elite" mentality that Hannity, Rush, O'Reilley, etc. beat the dems over the head with day after day after day after day after day after day after day. That is how Republicans continue to get elected despite their complete and utter failure at virtually everything.

If you want to spew your nonsense, fine. But please do me a favor.
Please take your stuff to the GOP. They love government intervention into personal lives (see abortion). I would love to see the GOP become the official nanny party.

You are off to a flying start here in lakewood...one republican, one supporter. Now go get the rest of them! Spread the secular evangelism of the evils of second hand smoke, tobacco executives and joe camel!

Phil Florian wrote:I haven't heard about the proposed smoking ban that gets trotted out every so often.

I was against the ban, not because I think smoking is alright because I don't, but because it was stupid economically. If tiny Lakewood passed the ban people would just go elsewhere around Lakewood and we would lose out.

Now with that being said I would definitely support a county-wide or state-wide ban. Along those lines, a large reason you're not seeing many local no smoking attempts lately is all of their effort is being put on the state-wide initiative for November.

FWIW Summit County passed a ban and I just heard on 90.3 the other day that there hasn't been much of an impact on business, and in some cases it's improved it.

With that said, they are placing it on hold since it exempted the city of Akron and are waiting to see what happens with the state initiative before deciding how to proceed. But there are several businesses that are keeping smoke-free because of the success they had.

Mike:

Is the fact that you cannot bring up any empirical data to stand behind your assertions why you choose to respond in such a rude and insulting way? Really, just because you say it louder or more abrasively doesn't make it a fact.

Here is some data from non-tobacco, non-leftist groups (yea I had to hunt a while, believe me...)

The first comprehensive study of the effect of legislation requiring smoke free restaurants on restaurant revenues found that smoke free restaurant ordinances do not harm restaurant sales. (Glantz & Smith, 1994.) This landmark study was updated by a 1997 study, which examined fifteen cities with smoke free restaurant laws and fifteen control communities without smoke free laws. The 1997 study also looked at five cities and two counties with smoke free bar laws and similar control cities and counties without such laws. (Glantz & Smith, 1997.)

The Glantz/Smith studies found that the effects of smoke free laws were similar for all types of restaurants, as defined by the kind of alcoholic beverages (if any) served on premises. (Glantz & Smith, 1994; Taylor Consulting Group, 1993.) The 1997 Glantz/Smith study found that smoke free bar laws do not affect revenues. The study relied on data for bars with full liquor licenses; it did not separately analyze the effects on freestanding bars and bars within restaurants. (Glantz & Smith, 1997.)

Oh - and sometimes revenues even increase:

Studies conducted in New York City and Boston, both popular tourist destinations, have concluded that neither city experienced a decline in sales following adoption of their early ordinances limiting smoking in restaurants. (Hyland, 1999; Bartosch and Pope, 1999.) Similarly, a study in California, which included the tourist-oriented cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles, found that restaurants, bars, hotels, and tourism were not adversely affected economically following implementation of the state's smoke free workplace and restaurant law. (California Department of Health Services, 1996.) And a study comparing hotel revenues and tourism rates before and after passage of 100% smoke free restaurant laws in three states and six cities found that such laws do not adversely affect, and may actually increase, tourism. (Glantz & Charlesworth, 1999

Sources:

Glantz, S.A., Smith, L.R.A. The effect of ordinances requiring smoke free restaurants on restaurant sales in the United States. American Journal of Public Health 84:1081-85, 1994.

Glantz, S.A., Smith, L.R.A. The effect of ordinances requiring smoke free restaurants and bars on revenues: A follow-up. American Journal of Public Health 87:1687-1693, 1997.

Glantz, S.A., Charlesworth, A., Tourism and hotel revenues before and after passage of smoke-free restaurant ordinances. Journal of the American Medical Association 281(20): 1911-1918, 1999.

GO read some studies and you will see that second hand smoke DOES affect non-smokers, and non-smoking ordinances do NOT affect business. Here are some tips for understanding the objectivity of the study:

(1)Was the study funded by a source clearly independent of the industry?
(2)Did the study objectively measure what actually happened, or was it based on subjective predictions or assessments?
(3)Was the study published in a peer reviewed journal?

Some other generally accepted principles of such economic impact studies are:

(1) Sales tax data is the most reliable measure
(2) Studies should include data for several years before enactment, and for all quarters after enactment
(3) Figures should take in to account general local economic trends as well as local restaurant trends
(4) Companies/groups with a significant financial or political stake may create 'front companies' for their studies - look at WHO is doing the study carefully.

NOTE: All of these things relate to studies about almost anything. Researchers should introduce their methodology in their papers so the information user can accurately asses the parameters used.

Wave the flag on individual property rights and I will support you all of the way. But I wont support or condone the spread of disinformation. Your anecdotal evidence sounds swell, but proves nothing.

Regards,
~Charyn

Comparing Lakewood to Boston or NYC is not valid.
It's a lot tougher for people to travel from Manhattan to New Jersey or Long Island to go drinking. It's easy for west siders to avoid lakewood.

Also, if you don't like my style, sorry. But the only thing that burns me up more than Republican nonsense is lefty nonsense that helps Republicans.

For the record, I am a professional study writer.

Answer my question:
If this is such a great idea, why is noone doing it independently?

Non-smoking restaurants/bars in t he Cleveland area:

#1 Pho Cleveland
• A&J's Grill Westlake
• Affamato Ristorante Westlake
• Agies Kitchen Strongsville
• Akira Sushi & Hibachi Solon
• Aladdin's Lakewood
• Aladdin's Eatery Cleveland Heights
• Aladdin's Eatery Independence
• Alex's Deli Cleveland
• Algebra Tea House Cleveland
• Ali Baba Restaurant Cleveland
• Angelina's Pizza Olmsted Falls
• Angelo's Pizza Lakewood
• Angelo's Pizza Cleveland
• Angie's Soul Food Cleveland
• Anthony's Italian Restaurant Cleveland
• Anthony's Pizza Pantry Brookpark
• Arabica Cleveland
• Arabica Coffee House Cleveland Heights
• Arabica Coffee House Bedford
• Arby's Cleveland
• Arthur Treacher's Fish & Chips Cleveland
• Au Bon Pain Cleveland
• Aura Global Cuisine Broadview Heights
• Battuto Ristorante Cleveland
• Bearden's Rocky River
• Beef O' Brady's East Lake
• Beef O'Brady's Strongsville
• Bennett's Resaurant Cleveland
• Big Daddy's Deli Cleveland
• Big Jim's Place Cleveland
• Bigpot Carribean & American Cuisine Cleveland
• Blue Flamingo Grille Parma
• Bob's Corvette Cafe Strongsville
• Books Baubles and Brew Loudonville
• Borderline Cafe Lakewood
• Boston Market Lakewood
• Boston Market Rocky River
• Boston Market North Olmsted
• Boston Market Mayfield Heights
• Boston Market University Heights
• Bovalino's Italian Ristorante Westlake
• Brown's Corner Restaurant Cleveland
• Buca di Beppo Strongsville
• Budapest Blonde Independence
• Cafe AH-Roma Berea
• Cafe Limbo Cleveland
• Cafe On The Rocks Cleveland
• Cafe Tandoor Cleveland Heights
• Cafe Tandoor Westlake
• Cajun Joe's Cleveland
• California Greenhouse Café Cleveland
• Carolina's Southern Cuisine Cleveland
• Chester's Cleveland
• Chili Peppers Fresh Mexican Grill Cleveland
• China 1 North Royalton
• China Dragon Restaurant Cleveland
• China House Cleveland
• China House Cleveland
• China Mountain I Cleveland
• China One Cleveland
• China Sea Express Cleveland
• China Sea Express Cleveland
• China Star Gourmet Shaker Heights
• China Town II Cleveland
• Chinese Village Lakewood
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Cleveland Heights
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Kent
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Independence
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Parma
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Lakewood
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Strongsville
• Chipotle Mexican Grill South Euclid
• Chipotle Mexican Grill Lyndhurst
• Chuck E Cheese's North Olmsted
• Cici's Pizza Shaker Heights
• Classic's Kitchen Cleveland
• Claudette's Cafe and Deli Westlake
• Clementine's Olmsted Falls
• Clifton Diner Cleveland
• Clubhouse Grill Westlake
• Co-op Cafe Cleveland
• Coffee Club Cafe Broadview Heights
• Coffee Club Cafe Broadview Heights
• Corky and Lenny's Woodmere
• D'Agnese's Italian Restaurant Seven Hills
• Dans Dogs A Hot Dog Eatery Medina
• Dave's Cosmic Subs Cleveland
• David's Deli Cleveland
• De'le cafe Cleveland
• Diamond Deli Cleveland
• Doc's Place Cleveland
• Dragon Express Cleveland
• El Taino Restaurant Cleveland
• El Tango Taquerra Lakewood
• Empress Taytu Ethiopian Restaurant Cleveland
• European Restaurant & Bakery Cleveland
• Falafel Cafe Cleveland
• Famous Dave's Cleveland
• Fat Billy's Cleveland
• Fat Cats Cleveland
• Firefly Bainbridge
• FireHouse Grille & Pub Willoughby Hills
• For Goodness Jakes Cleveland
• Francesco's Ristorante Italiano Broadview Heights
• Frank & Marty's Bar Cleveland
• Freddie's Southern Style Rib House Cleveland
• Fu Sheng Chinese Restaurant Cleveland
• Genesis Bistro Seven Hills
• Geraci's University Heights
• Gina's Place Fairview Park
• Golden Hong-Kong University Heights
• Golden Sea Parma
• Gookie's Cleveland
• Grady's Rocky River
• Grandma Bea's Strongsville
• Grandpa's Deli Cleveland
• Great Lakes Brewing Company Cleveland
• Great Wall Chinese Buffet North Olmsted
• Grilly's Cafe Cleveland
• Halite Cleveland
• Halle's Cafe Cleveland
• Ho-Wood Cleveland
• Home Family Club Parma
• Hometown Buffet Rocky River
• Honey Do Club Cleveland
• Honeys Gourmet Lakewood
• Hot Sauce Williams Cleveland
• Hot Sauce Williams Cleveland
• Hunan by the Falls Chagrin Falls
• Hunan in Garfield Garfield Heights
• Hunan One Cleveland
• IL Carrettino Strongsville
• Its It Deli Cleveland
• Izzo's Cafe Cleveland
• J. Pistone Market and Gathering Place Shaker Heights
• Jack Spratts Pizza Cleveland
• Jack's Deli and Restaurant University Heights
• Jerry's Wine Center & Tasting Room Broadview Hts
• Joe De's Pizza & Restaurant Cleveland
• Joe's Deli Rocky River 6 reviews
• Joe's Grill & Restaurant Cleveland
• Joey's Restaurant Chagrin Falls
• Johnny Mango Cleveland
• Johnny Mango Willoughby
• Juniper Grille Cleveland
• Karma on Coventry Cleveland Heights
• Kashmir Palace, Inc. North Olmsted
• Kim's Wings Cleveland
• Kimo's Sushi Shop Cleveland
• King Fong Chinese Restaurant Cleveland
• La Bodega Cleveland
• La Chateau Strongsville
• Landmark Cafe Cleveland
• Leanza's Pizza Cleveland
• Liquid Planet Cleveland
• Long House Deli Cleveland
• Lopez Bar & Grille Cleveland Heights
• Luchita's Cleveland
• Lunchbox Deli Cleveland
• MADRAS CAFE (old maharaja) Richmond Heights
• Manhatten Deli North Olmsted
• Marotta's Cleveland Heights
• Mateo's California Mexican Restaurant Akron
• Max's Deli Rocky River
• McNulty's Bier Markt Cleveland
• Mezza Mediterranean Cuisine Westlake
• Mike's Kitchen Cleveland
• Minh-Anh Cleveland
• Mom's Diner Solon
• Mom's Wok Broadview Heights
• Mozarella's American Cafe Beachwood
• Mustard Seed Market and Cafe Akron
• Nemo Grille Avon
• Nile Valley Shaker Heights
• Noggin's Raw Bar and Pub Shaker Heights
• North Coast Cafe Cleveland
• North End Wine Bar and Restaurant Hudson
• Number 1 Kitchen Cleveland
• Octane Cafe Cleveland
• OHASHI North Olmsted
• Olive Mountain Restaurant & Ernesto's Mexican Food Cleveland
• OPA! on 25th Cleveland
• Open Pit Barbecue Cleveland
• Pacific East Cleveland Heights
• Pad Thai Hudson
• Palm Spring's Cafe Berea
• Panera Bread Cleveland
• Papa Nick's Cleveland
• Park City Diner Valley View
• Pasta Lear's Brookpark
• Peking Gourmet Chinese Restaurant South Euclid
• Peking Tokyo Middleburg Heights
• Phnom Penh Restaurant Cleveland
• Pho Hoa Cleveland
• Phoenix Coffee Cleveland Heights
• Phoenix Coffee Company Lakewood
• Phoenix's Roastery Café Cleveland
• Picasso's Pizza Cleveland
• Pipers Three Broadview Heights
• Pizza Pan Cleveland
• PJ's Lucheonette Cleveland
• Que Tal? Cleveland Heights
• Quizno's Subs Cleveland
• Quiznos Sub Parma Hts.
• Red Robin Willoughby
• Red Robin North Olmsted
• Red Walter Bar B-Q Cleveland
• Rincon Criollo Cleveland
• Rocky's Pizza and Wings Cleveland
• Rosati's Frozen Custard North Olmsted
• Ruby Tuesday North Olmsted
• Rustic Restaurant Rocky River
• Sakkio Resturant Euclid
• Sakura Restaurant Cleveland
• Sammy's Grill Cleveland
• Sand's Eddie Blueline Cafe Shaker Heights
• Sans Souci Cleveland
• Santa Fe Cafe Cleveland
• Santo's Pizza Middleburg Heights
• Savor the Moment Cleveland
• Second City Cleveland
• Seekers Coffee House Middleburg Heights
• Sergio's in University Circle Cleveland
• Severance Restaurant Cleveland
• Silver Spartan Diner Cleveland
• Smokehouse Strongsville
• Smoothie Creations Parma
• Sol's Deli Shaker Heights
• Souper Market Cleveland
• Southside Cafe Independence
• Spring Garden Cleveland
• Stonehouse Grill Westlake
• Sun Luck Garden Cleveland Heights
• Sushi 86 Cleveland
• Sushi on the Square Cleveland
• Szechwan Garden Restaurant Lakewood
• Tal's Parma Heights
• Taqueria Guadalajara Cleveland
• Taste of China Shaker Heights
• TasteBuds Cleveland
• Taza Lebanese Grill Woodmere
• Tea House Noodles Express Cleveland
• Terry Bear's Pizza & More Cleveland
• Thai Kitchen Lakewood
• The Baricelli Inn Cleveland
• The Book & Bean Berea
• The Brew Kettle Strongsville
• The Cafe of the United House of Prayer Cleveland
• The Coffee Corner Broadview Heights
• The Deli Cleveland
• The Deli at Tower East Shaker Heights
• The Diner on 55th St. Cleveland
• The Green Island Bay Village
• The Grill Room Cleveland
• The Mad Greek Cleveland Heights
• The Melting Pot Lyndhurst
• The Original Pancake House Woodmere
• The Pita Palace Strongsville
• The Seafood Place Cleveland Heights
• The Simmering Pot Strongsville
• Three Birds Lakewood
• Tina's Deli & Restaurant Lakewood
• Tom Loves To Cook, Inc Cleveland
• Tomaydo Tomahhdo Cleveland
• Tommy's Cleveland Heights
• Tremont Scoops Ice Cream Cleveland
• Tutto Giorno Cleveland
• Udupi Cafe Parma Hts.
• Uncle Gug Gyro House and Deli Cleveland
• Valentino's Pizza Cleveland
• Vicinato Pizza & Pasta Lyndhurst
• Vue Restaurant & Lounge Hudson
• Water's Edge Deli & Grill Lakewood
• Whitmore's Bar-B-Que Cleveland
• Whitmore's Barbecue East Cleveland
• Whitmore's BBQ Cleveland Heights
• Wild Mango North Olmsted
• Wingstop Mentor
• Yang's Taipei Cleveland
• Yours Truly Cleveland
• Yours Truly Beachwood

Interestingly, if I recall correctly on another thread there was discussion of trying to bring more upscale lounge/restaurant type into the area... Everyone seemd to agree that it would be excellent for Lakewood;s growth and development.

Hmm... Lots of those on that list aren't there?

hmmmmmm.....

Next Question?

Wow, you are taking "insulting my intelligence" to new depths.

That is a lengthy list of restaurants, not bars.
A bar is a place where the primary purpose is to drink. Food may be offered, but is secondary to drink. For example, Sullivan's has good food, but the place is a bar. Fine restaurants that serve alcohol are not bars (such as Three Birds).
The fact that Arby's is on your list simply demonstrates that you are being deceptive.

May I suggest that you apply for a job at the White House? I hear Scott McClellan will be canned this week.

rotfl...

Trust me kiddo - I have been flamed by the best so you'll get no where with me. But you are so cute to watch!!

I clearly wrote that it was a list of restaurant/bars (see top) so your attempt to paint me as deceptive is weak. I did not analyze all of the entries, but I did look through enough of them to know that of the restaurant names that I recognized, several of them served alcohol or have alcohol as a primary source of revenue.

There have been a a number of industry experts (restaurant/hospitality industry to be exact) that have commented on the convergence of the restaurant and bar - enough that I beleive it was mentioned on another thread here as well. It is rare to find any bar that serves drink only, and they are typically the undesireable lot of 'punch palaces.'

In the interest of playing nice I do admit that my focus was on the overall hospitality industry AND I also admit that I didnt edit or review it - I simply copied and pasted it to illustrate the point that there are a LOT of businesses that ARE doing very well as voluntary non-smoking establishments.

As an aside to an an earlier point you made - I would have to double check, but I am fairly certain that the researchers I quoted above took a MUCH broader sampling of cities than NYC & Boston in order to esnure that there results would be representative of the majority of US cities.

Lastly, I have provided a number of facts to support my case and while I fully acknowledge that my limited amount of research is not fully representative of all aspects of the issues you are ranting about - you have not provided a single shred of evidence that your position might possibly be true. Exactly what intelligence is being insulted, eh?

*batting eyelashes*

Your turn!

Mike Deneen wrote:Answer my question:
If this is such a great idea, why is noone doing it independently?

Because most people, let alone business owners, are scared of change. They make money at what they do now and may be comfortable so why take any chances.

It's human nature, that's why there's no change. Simple.

On a personal note Mike, you do nothing to help your argument by continuing to go down to the level of making snide comments.

Bryan--I am surprised you would make such a comment. Local entrepreneurs don't fear change. Over the years we have seen many interesting new concepts brought to Lakewood. I think John Crino's Bella Dubby is an excellent example. Capsule is another place that comes to mind. (Unfortunately, of course, many new concepts such as Capsule don't make it) Outside of Lakewood, Dave and Busters represents a relatively new and interesting concept (Chuck E. Cheese for adults)

Bar owners are always looking for new gimmicks to increase business. It has gone way beyond 10 cent wings and ladies night. Examples include TV-themed nights (I still remember Around the Corner's 'Melrose Mondays") and monthly bar trivia contests, which Sullivan's tried last month. So why not a smokeless Sunday?

As for Chary, who seems to put a lot of faith in studies (sort of like how evangelicals quote the Bible).

But I would ask you to keep the following in mind:

Studies said trade deals like NAFTA and GATT would help the American worker
Common Sense said corporations would move their jobs overseas

Studies claimed that cutting taxes on the top one percent would benefit working people through "trickle down"
Common sense said the wealthy would hold onto as much as their money as possible and the gap between rich and poor would expand

Studies said that the new sports stadiums downtown would bring tens of thousands of full time jobs
Common sense said that any jobs created would be temporary or seasonal in nature

Studies say lots of interesting things, and can be used to push any political agenda.

In the interest of disclosure, I have no stock, ownership or interest in any tobacco firm or bar. Also, I am a happy non-smoker.

Also, please spare me the politenesw lectures. I may be a dem, but I am not Alan Combes. When I feel deceived or conned, I bite back! I have done the same to the LO republicans.

However, if I have hurt anyone's feelings, I would be happy to take everyone out to Arby's for a beer! Just kidding!

Mike while I would answer your question regarding change I'm not going to continue this conversation. Your inability to discuss without making childish personal attacks at the participants makes me loathe to continue. It's not worth my time.

Mike, do you respond so vehemently on all topics or ones close to your heart like smoking? I am just curious.

Your rebuttal of studies seems out of place, especially for someone who says they are a professional study writer (I had to think that was a joke, though).

These weren't studies of potential lost revenue due to a future ban. You pointed to feasability studies that tried to predict the effects of cutting the taxes on the rich or putting a stadium downtown. These studies that Charyn and I quoted were looking at areas that already have smoking bans in effect and they were looking at real numbers of income after the ban was there, not before. The results seem to counter your ideas and clearly point to no change or possibly even an increase in revenue.

But still, it seems the mood has gotten a bit nastier. Sorry folks are being run off by that. Maybe it will improve if some others could come on here with pro/con discussion of a smoking ban.