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Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:32 am
by Jim O'Bryan
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“Your Deck is mean spirited and not open to dialogue. “

I disagree with this statement, to start with. To call a statement that is intentionally not truthful, a lie, is not mean-spirited, it is the truth.  Statements that make people uncomfortable are necessary sometimes.  To call wording added after the fact to a document that changes the document in a way that makes the document doomed to failure “bogus,” is not mean-spirited.  It is not mean-spirited to call something the way you see it. In fact, it has to be done.  Is it disrespectful to call something a lie if it can be shown to be patently untrue? Is it vitriolic to go through point after point to prove that someone actually did lie?  Is it mean-spirited to post documents that prove that point once again?
 
There has to be a place where we can speak frankly. No one likes terrible news and often the reaction is: “That can’t be. You are lying.” Believing that someone is lying, or avoiding the news and focusing on the way the messenger speaks, is often a lot easier than examining the implications of the news itself.
 
So, the first poster shares new findings with the Deck, say the news that documents show that Cleveland Clinic had a written and approved plan to “decant” Lakewood hospital in 2010.
 
Readers of the Deck who really don't want to hear that come on and question the person who posted it, or say other things defending Cleveland Clinic’s behavior.  The original person replies and goes further into what was originally posted, now defending him or herself, and giving more information that supports what they have originally posted. Another poster comes on to say that Cleveland Clinic’s behavior is deplorable, they should have been stopped when they started moving money-making departments and staff out of Lakewood.  And someone else comes on and says that they don’t mind going to Fairview Park to get services that were once offered in Lakewood. And another person comes on, very upset, saying that Lakewood had a full-service, well-run hospital at one time, and they can see that it has actively been decimated under the watch of a group whose mission was to defend it.  They may be upset enough to say to the poster before them, “I don’t know about you, Buddy, but I think we deserve a hospital. I don’t drive and who’s going to pay to get me to Fairview Park or Avon for godsakes, you?”  So this response has been personalized. The rhetoric has ratcheted up.  This is how it is sometimes.  “I disagree with you! What you are saying makes me feel bad! You are wrong!”  This is legitimate and it has to be allowed if we are to interact with one another honestly.
 
This is dialogue among humans. This is how it gets over the back fence sometimes. People get frustrated, they get upset, they feel powerless and that no one is listening or no one cares. If you look around, we don’t have a lot of structures built into our society or our community where we can openly talk—where it’s absolutely okay to say how you actually feel. Or where it’s okay to share what you know, that you think others should know.  It’s not easy but it has to be done; this is how we take care of our community and ourselves. This is why Ken Warren described the Deck as a “mosh pit of words.”  The printed paper is more sedate. News is on the front page, and under various headings like City and Schools; opinions are on the Forum page.  I got a lot of heat for writing an article about Mayor Summers receiving an opinion from the Ohio Ethics Commission that described what an ethics violation would be.  That article was very straightforward, all it did was sum up actual letters and paperwork, there was no opinion in it.  It was not good news, but it was news, and it was important news.  
 
There are citizens who are unhappy with me for publishing that article. Many that were up in arms about it have only heard it described, they have not read it. Frequently people criticizing the Deck have not read it, but have heard it described by others who are upset about what was being said. And yes, what is being said is sometimes upsetting, especially recently.

Recently I started a thread called, “The most ignorant comment in the hospital discussion.” I did not say that anyone was ignorant, but that there were comments made that were ignorant, ie, as Websters Dictionary would say, “lacking in knowledge.” No one called anyone ignorant. Smart people say ignorant things sometimes.
 
A calm discussion makes rational discourse easier, but temperaments sometimes run high, especially when there is so much misinformation to address, and this misinformation is coming from our elected representatives: Mistruth: The medical center proposed would be a hospital. Truth: It would not in any way be a hospital, Cleveland Clinic has never made that statement, in fact, when questioned they compared the “Family Health Center” to the Stephanie Tubbs Jones Center in East Cleveland. It would be not be a hospital. It is disingenuous, or untrue, or a lie, to say otherwise.  Our City is spending our money on crisis management to “handle us.”  There is a lot to talk about here. In very tough situations like this you want people on it who cannot be fired, who will not lose their livelihood, and can talk freely.  The Deck has always been such a place.  Many Deck posters spend hours researching what they post, and then spend more time defending it.  Read it. Take a look at how issues from snow removal to the gifted program have been discussed.

The question that Ken Warren had the answer to, and the real reason politicians do not come in was, “How do we moderate?” Simply put, in Ken’s words, we don’t. We never moderate, we give everyone enough rope to hang themselves. People can say whatever they want.
 
In a community it is very important to help everyone define the topic and those involved. In the real world we are framed by our words and actions, and history exists so that we can understand the past and apply it to the future. Ken preached this everyday of his life: “Own your bias, amplify and own your thoughts.”
 
This is why I prefer to keep dialogue over important issues on the Deck, instead of other social media sites, because on the Deck, real names are used, and posts aren't deleted, so the history of the discussion can be seen and understood. 
 
Read the white paper-- (It was so important to Ken Warren that it is the last chapter in his book, “Captain Poetry’s Sucker Punch A Guide To The Homeric Punkhole, 1980-2012” and was the first chapter of the book we were writing together* on the Observer when he died. There is no such thing as unbiased journalism, though it will be interesting to read the New York Times take on the Hospital. We all have biases. You have your own bias; I have my own bias, and there is no problem with that, as long as you are willing to own it, and not delete it.  We learn from our own interactions, we learn from the history we make every day.  People change their minds on the Deck sometimes! People say, “I never saw it that way before, thank you for spending all this time with me when I have been so upset.”  And sometimes people go away feeling bad because as more information is unearthed, it turns out that they were wrong and they feel bad about it. Just like real life. Real people, real conversations.

One of the hallmarks of this project is that we realize that we all have different needs, wants and backgrounds. What I want may have no bearing on your life, or it could have a negative impact. So let’s put it out there, and try to understand it. We back no candidates, no issues, with the singular exception of supporting schools. We like smart kids, we like teachers, and believe the youth of this city is our future.

Ken’s explanation of the Deck as a place to find additional information that cannot be found in other media resources is just part of it. We put out information as it is submitted to us by our community, each person with their own issues, and allow room for those issues to be discussed from all sides. Again, I say, read it, take a real look at it. I will put facts presented, or arrived at, in this forum, to be above anyone else’s. Precisely because we do not control it, as every other media source is controlled.
 
Here is the mission statement for the entire project, including the printed newspaper and the Deck. I know you will recognize Ken’s work in this.
 
The mission of the Lakewood Observer is to attract, articulate, and amplify civic intelligence and community good will in the city of Lakewood and beyond.
 
Our goal is to help Lakewood residents and neighbors learn as much as possible about the city. In its efforts to know Lakewood par excellence, the Lakewood Observer will illuminate the many facets of culture, arts, business, education, religion, and lifestyle this diverse city has to offer.

The Lakewood Observer will capture Lakewood life in the present, imagine its promising future, and celebrate its rich urban history.
 
The Lakewood Observer shall provide a sounding board for charities, institutions, schools, children, families, events, and City Hall. We intend to open a space for long running dialogue with everyone who works, lives, or plays in the great city of Lakewood.

In this twenty-first century urban experiment, the Lakewood Observer will strive to construct for the city an open and unbiased ensemble of white papers for mapping community solutions, advancing responsible economic development and sustainability strategies, and tracking results.

Finally, the Lakewood Observer will invite the entire community to celebrate the vibrant mosaic of culture, nature, history, and personality we call Lakewood.

 
The mission statement has not changed.

What some call “hate” is more like frustration, and as I stated above, it is a necessary part of this endeavor sometimes. With regard to the hospital situation, the largest deal in Lakewood’s history, we have been constantly misled, given bogus information and lied to by people who fight every public record request, drag their feet on every document requested by residents and lawyers, and constantly call us names instead of answering our questions. I would say that everyone looking for the truth is frustrated to death. But when a City spends $1 million on spin, you have to know up front that it will be hard getting the truth out of elected officials that took an oath of office. (If you want to see the breakdown on how that million dollars was spent, it is on the Deck.).

Right now in our community there is a small group that has all the actual facts regarding the hospital situation; they are attempting to enact massive changes to the entire essence of Lakewood, behind a curtain, and it has been sprung upon citizens as “WE MUST DO THIS OR DIE” and it is simply not true. When one side has all the facts, and does not care to share them and they lie and mislead, those who feel violated get mad. Getting mad is a necessary part of the discussion sometimes.
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Thank you for continuing to view, and continuing to be hopeful, about the Deck. Take the time and wade in. Your comments will be taken seriously.

Also thank you for taking the time to have this conversation, and for how much you care about this community.

* The Observer book is still being written, Dan Slife taking over for Ken. Before his death Ken and I traded all of our emails about Lakewood and various factions to each other, and the family has given us his notebooks, papers and computers. It will get finished. It's going to be an eye opener.

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Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:36 pm
by Michael Deneen
The anti-hospital crowd has been ramping up the anti-Observer talk in recent months because they don't like having an independent news voice in town.

If these people have their way, Lakewood's healthcare will be controlled by the Cleveland Clinic, and Lakewood's local media will be controlled by NEOMG.

The Clinic and NEOMG are two corporations that have no allegiance to Lakewood. In fact, they are both fully committed to "regionalism", which would wipe out the city's identity and independence.

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:16 pm
by Corey Rossen
Michael Deneen wrote:The anti-hospital crowd has been ramping up the anti-Observer talk in recent months because they don't like having an independent news voice in town.

If these people have their way, Lakewood's healthcare will be controlled by the Cleveland Clinic, and Lakewood's local media will be controlled by NEOMG.

The Clinic and NEOMG are two corporations that have no allegiance to Lakewood. In fact, they are both fully committed to "regionalism", which would wipe out the city's identity and independence.

Interesting. Please name who "they" are so I can better understand. Also, "these people" and "anti-hospital crowd."

I don't mean to nit-pick but using actual names helps the dialogue. (Just as the Deck states.)

Thanks.
Corey

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:25 pm
by Lori Allen _
I believe that NEOMG and CCF do have an allegiance to Summers. When was the last time you read an article by Bruce Geiselman that actually gave both sides of the hospital issue or was even truthful? Although I am not sure, I have been told that Geiselman is or has been on one of Summer's countless committees. I believe he lives in Bay Village. Has anyone checked to see if Bruce is on the city pay roll? :lol: It appears that is is Summer's private press secretary. :roll:

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:29 pm
by Michael Deneen
There have been plenty of anti-observer posts around social media from numerous Build Lakewood enthusiasts.
(by definition, Build Lakewood is the anti-hospital crowd)
I've posted some of them here already....for example the "E News" thread from a few weeks ago.

One, Rick Uldricks, even went so far as to encourage people to "unfriend" people that post Observer articles on the Facebook feeds.
As I've mentioned, Rick is a City Hall employee that is also moderator of "Lakewood Citizen"...he never discloses that fact to his readers.

Jay Foran went on a rant last week with JOB, as did other members of the Summers gang. One member whined about being named here, which is why I usually avoid using specific names of folks that don't post here (unless they get REALLY obnoxious on Facebook or elsewhere, such as the "E News" thread).

Those are just two of the names of folks who wish this project didn't exist. That is also certainly true of City Hall.
They want to keep the citizens in the dark, which is evidenced by their reluctance to release documents.

If you want more names of anti-hospital anti-Observer folks, simply look at the sites like NextDoor, and the LO, BL and SLH FB pages.

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:27 pm
by Brian Essi
Corey Rossen wrote:
Michael Deneen wrote:The anti-hospital crowd has been ramping up the anti-Observer talk in recent months because they don't like having an independent news voice in town.

If these people have their way, Lakewood's healthcare will be controlled by the Cleveland Clinic, and Lakewood's local media will be controlled by NEOMG.

The Clinic and NEOMG are two corporations that have no allegiance to Lakewood. In fact, they are both fully committed to "regionalism", which would wipe out the city's identity and independence.

Interesting. Please name who "they" are so I can better understand. Also, "these people" and "anti-hospital crowd."

I don't mean to nit-pick but using actual names helps the dialogue. (Just as the Deck states.)

Thanks.
Corey


Yeah Mike,

Who are they?

Anyone that looks a little yellow and breaks out into a sweat when you mention the Deck, the Observer or Jim O'Bryan?

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:33 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Corey Rossen wrote:I don't mean to nit-pick but using actual names helps the dialogue. (Just as the Deck states.)

Thanks.
Corey



Corey

Where is that stated?

We want posters to use their real names, so they are legally accountable.

But I know of no where else it demands that.

I know of many conversations about this in the early days, about comments that start with, "You know what
I overhead it line today... But I do not know anywhere it demands a poster use anything other than their own
real name.

Just making sure we got it right.


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Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:37 pm
by Corey Rossen
Michael Deneen wrote:There have been plenty of anti-observer posts around social media from numerous Build Lakewood enthusiasts.
(by definition, Build Lakewood is the anti-hospital crowd)
I've posted some of them here already....for example the "E News" thread from a few weeks ago.

One, Rick Uldricks, even went so far as to encourage people to "unfriend" people that post Observer articles on the Facebook feeds.
As I've mentioned, Rick is a City Hall employee that is also moderator of "Lakewood Citizen"...he never discloses that fact to his readers.

Jay Foran went on a rant last week with JOB, as did other members of the Summers gang. One member whined about being named here, which is why I usually avoid using specific names of folks that don't post here (unless they get REALLY obnoxious on Facebook or elsewhere, such as the "E News" thread).

Those are just two of the names of folks who wish this project didn't exist. That is also certainly true of City Hall.
They want to keep the citizens in the dark, which is evidenced by their reluctance to release documents.

If you want more names of anti-hospital anti-Observer folks, simply look at the sites like NextDoor, and the LO, BL and SLH FB pages.

Thank you.
Corey

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:45 pm
by Corey Rossen
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Corey Rossen wrote:I don't mean to nit-pick but using actual names helps the dialogue. (Just as the Deck states.)

Thanks.
Corey



Corey

Where is that stated?

We want posters to use their real names, so they are legally accountable.

But I know of no where else it demands that.

I know of many conversations about this in the early days, about comments that start with, "You know what
I overhead it line today... But I do not know anywhere it demands a poster use anything other than their own
real name.

Just making sure we got it right.


.

You are correct, the Deck does not state it. I think I was interchanging you with the Deck. (Still haven't heard back from you on names and accusations from a previous post, but if it ignored long enough it goes away or is forgotten - just so we have it right.). Wink. Smiley face. Wink. Wink.

I do like when names are mentioned, it helps eliminate false interpretations or intentions.

My bad.
Corey

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:17 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Corey Rossen wrote:I do like when names are mentioned, it helps eliminate false interpretations or intentions.
Corey


Corey

This is the exact reason this post was put up. Someone used a direct quote from someone
to illustrate something completely different and everything erupted into a shouting match.

We were forced to wonder, why wouldn't a responsible person want to be correctly quoted?

Even with names, a direct quote, not out of context, and people were upset.

You can't please everyone.

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Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:32 am
by Corey Rossen
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Corey Rossen wrote:I do like when names are mentioned, it helps eliminate false interpretations or intentions.
Corey


Corey

This is the exact reason this post was put up. Someone used a direct quote from someone
to illustrate something completely different and everything erupted into a shouting match.

We were forced to wonder, why wouldn't a responsible person want to be correctly quoted?

Even with names, a direct quote, not out of context, and people were upset.

You can't please everyone.

.

Understood. That is why I always think it is appropriate to have posters use names when accusing, referencing or mentioning other people. It is never too much to ask posters to use names in such situations.

I appreciate Michael Deneen for responding to my request for names in his post. Hopefully it catches on.

I do not view any of the other media outlet pages that Michael mentioned (NextDoor, etc) so it is helpful to me when messages are passed back and forth.

Corey

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:56 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Corey Rossen wrote:Understood. That is why I always think it is appropriate to have posters use names when accusing, referencing or mentioning other people. It is never too much to ask posters to use names in such situations.

I appreciate Michael Deneen for responding to my request for names in his post. Hopefully it catches on.

I do not view any of the other media outlet pages that Michael mentioned (NextDoor, etc) so it is helpful to me when messages are passed back and forth.

Corey



Corey

I appreciated Mike doing that as well. Maybe it will catch on.

For me, on this topic it is slightly more complicated, as there are things in the background going on.

I am sure it will be ready to publish in late October, with names, examples, and facts.

Thanks for the compliment on the Deck, in the end we do what we can within our comfort zone
and maybe, just maybe Lakewood gets to know itself a little better.

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Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:14 am
by Corey Rossen
[/quote]

For me, on this topic it is slightly more complicated, as there are things in the background going on.

.[/quote]
This is part of the problem. Probably the biggest part. If you, or anyone, knows something and decides to pass it on - please pass it on with full description, detail...and names.

This isn't the playground where "nah, nah, nah, I know something you don't know" is acceptable. If one thinks it is acceptable, then people will again have to ask for names and details. Basically, keep that antic on the playground and not over the digital fence.

If the information is not ready for full disclosure (names, details, etc.) then it is simply just not ready to be disclosed. Keep the information under hat until it can be properly addressed...in detail.

As with the information you say is not ready until late October - it should be under hat until then- without hints, acknowledgements or accusations...or take it to a playground.

Corey

Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:46 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Corey Rossen wrote:This is part of the problem. Probably the biggest part. If you, or anyone, knows something and decides to pass it on - please pass it on with full description, detail...and names.



Corey

This is another really big problem, Everyone likes to paint the Observer in their brush.

While it is certainly understandable, it is rarely true.

So should have Mayor Summers waited until he had the name of the Warren Road rapist?
He waited ten days while the man raped two other people. Was that why he waited so long?
The next victim lived just outside of Lakewood, should the mayor have waited even longer
than the two rapes to say anything? OR Is it right to talk about it and warn people?

Again you want names, I can show you 100 people that want no names, and fake names.

The plan of action is leaving it to the individual.



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Re: Your Deck Is Mean Spirited And Not Open To Dialogue

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:11 am
by Corey Rossen
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Corey Rossen wrote:This is part of the problem. Probably the biggest part. If you, or anyone, knows something and decides to pass it on - please pass it on with full description, detail...and names.



Corey

This is another really big problem, Everyone likes to paint the Observer in their brush.

While it is certainly understandable, it is rarely true.

So should have Mayor Summers waited until he had the name of the Warren Road rapist?
He waited ten days while the man raped two other people. Was that why he waited so long?
The next victim lived just outside of Lakewood, should the mayor have waited even longer
than the two rapes to say anything? OR Is it right to talk about it and warn people?

Again you want names, I can show you 100 people that want no names, and fake names.

The plan of action is leaving it to the individual.


.

Please do not equate this to a rape case.

Legality, morality and common decency aside - what the heck are you talking about?

I am talking about posters accusing people and telling detailed stories with names attached...and you bring up rape?

To take your bait...I am not a lawyer but I'm sure something exists about releasing names of people until accused (some people actually release names of the accused). What if he released your name as the rapist? Would that have been okay with you? Can only the Mayor release names? You are the keeper of backroom names and dealings - did you know the name of a rapist and not release it?

And yes, I want names, always. (still waiting on some people to release names. wink. wink.)

Corey