The Observation Deck

It looks like the Westshore conversion has funding.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm hoping this will reduce the number of people using LKWD as a cut-through to and from work.


http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/west_shoreway_conversion_to_bo.html#cmpid=nwsltrhead

The poll works! Thanks.

I had to vote "I don't know" on this one. If the plan includes fixing the Main Avenue bridge I guess I would support it, though I wonder what effect slowing that drive down will have on traffic at rush hour.

According to last Friday's Plain Dealer (print version!) the Main Avenue bridge is one of nearly 340 in Ohio that are termed both "structurally deficient" and "fracture-critical" in bridge reports.

From PD article:
A bridge is deemed fracture critical when it doesn't have redundant protections and is at risk of collapse if a single, vital component fails. A bridge is structurally deficient when it is in need of rehabilitation or replacement because at least one major component of the span has advanced deterioration or other problems that lead inspectors to deem its condition poor or worse.

7,795 (bridges in the US) were both -- a combination of red flags that experts say indicate significant disrepair and similar risk of collapse.


http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.s ... ridge.html

I think the Main Avenue bridge should be fixed so that we're not in danger of it collapsing while we're driving over it before we worry about improving the aesthetic quality of our drive along the lake and our access to recreation.

Betsy Voinovich

Betsy Voinovich wrote:
I think the Main Avenue bridge should be fixed so that we're not in danger of it collapsing while we're driving over it before we worry about improving the aesthetic quality of our drive along the lake and our access to recreation.

Betsy Voinovich

Maybe the County could fix the bridge with the $100 million they plan to spend on a new hotel.

I support the shoreway plan. If it was up to me I'd extend the concept all along Clifton. If people are bothered by the extra five minute commute they can take I 90 or move closer to town.

I completely agree with Bill. I will miss being able to zoom into Cleveland but am fine if the upgrade helps out structurally and aesthetically.

That was my thought too. I'll sacrifice a little time - possibly - but I'm hoping that the additional time drives people onto 90.

Frankly, I'm surprised ODOT or the state gave us any money for this. I thought they only funded bad traffic ideas.

I disagree with the plan. On those few occasions when I go downtown, I always take the Shoreway.

I would theorize that this is another piece in the social engineering that is Agenda 21. Bill even made the comment for me:
"If people are bothered by the extra five minute commute they can take I 90 or move closer to town."
That's the point. Its about the people in government dictating, albeit subtlety, where we live or how we drive. This is a nudge.
10, 15, maybe 20 years down the road, people may end up being demonized for that "extra 5 minutes" that they drive their horrible gas guzzling cars. Do you hate the environment??

Roy Pitchford wrote:I disagree with the plan. On those few occasions when I go downtown, I always take the Shoreway.

I would theorize that this is another piece in the social engineering that is Agenda 21. Bill even made the comment for me:
"If people are bothered by the extra five minute commute they can take I 90 or move closer to town."
That's the point. Its about the people in government dictating, albeit subtlety, where we live or how we drive. This is a nudge.
10, 15, maybe 20 years down the road, people may end up being demonized for that "extra 5 minutes" that they drive their horrible gas guzzling cars. Do you hate the environment??

The Shoreway was a product of Progressive Big Government American History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_ ... l_Shoreway
That decades long spate of American history that subsidized, incentivized, prioritized, promoted, and devoted so much time and energy to the stuff young libertarians take for granted today.(they are worse than hippies).

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Later, Many years ago,..in the future...Colonel Sanders said, "We can't stop. we have to slow down first". Then Dark Helmet said, "Smoke 'em if you got 'em".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0

I personally don't see the point of turning it into some kind of boulevard though. Detroit, Clifton, Lake, and Madison are already...some kind of boulevards. If it is necessary, there is no need to demolish it and rebuild it at enormous expense. just lower the speed limit and put up some cross walks and traffic lights.

I disagree with your comparison, Ryan. Libertarians bathe and use deodorant.

You make it sound like libertarians oppose any and every public works project and publicly funded entity. I think you're confusing libertarians with anarchists.
Libertarians believe in a form of government which does for the people only that which they could not do as individuals or as small groups. Look at it historically:
One man, one town, not even one of the original colonies could have stood against the British Empire on its own. But together, with all the colonies contributing people, arms and funds, they were able to overcome. They provided for their common defense.

But I'm getting off topic. This is about the highway. The highway was built with (most likely) Federal funds at Federal direction because FDR thought his New Deal would help us end the Great Depression. While his supposition was incorrect (WW2 brought us out of the Great Depression, not the New Deal), I find no fault in the concept of constructing the Shoreway.

But changing the highway is going to change population trends, traffic patterns and much more and I can't help but believe there will be consequences that turn out bad for everyone except the Cleveland councilman who's district this is in.

WW2 provided the New Deal with something to do with itself. Suburbia and big box retail was not even realized in the mass-imagination. The New Deal was a practice pitch at rehearsing for WW2 organization and deployment of idle resources and bankrupt financiers who had lost it all hypothetically spotting "investors" 90 percent on stocks and bonds.. Contemporary or Recent American Patriotism is heavily invested in "Winning World War 2." Post-War Progressivism was integrated with capitalist and egalitarian idealism to make many or most Americans rich or more relaxed and luxurious. The Shoreway was an act of progressivism. In the spirit of complacency, the Shoreway should probably be maintained for the simple fact that...it is already there. with so many off-ramps of the interstates to downtown being under repair, the Shoreway should at least be held to the status quo until the off-ramps are repaired. Do you remember before the Shoreway was functional? the traffic jams on 90? the Sprawl-lands of westlake and avon barely existed, their developers and buyers not yet endorsed and subsidized and tax-decuctionizied and realized, the sewer and water-lines and on-ramps and highway-widening projects not yet built. It was only the late 70s and early 80s. This was Cold War era territory and Free Trade handn't gotten up to speed, so the vast majority of tax burden and deficits are mostly Military and Intelligency and their contractors. and even without that, 90 was way backed up. as Dark Helmet said, "Smoke 'em if you got 'em". In conclusion, there is no more irrational and ignorant being than most of the modern economic libertarian ilk.

I don't know about the Libertarians, Ryan, but the Shoreway predates 90. In fact, the completion of 90 through Lakewood and the west side in the mid-seventies alleviated traffic from the shore way to such a degree that we now have no need for such a broad road.

First, the thought that this project will result in any measurable inward migration due to increased commute times is way over-blown. If commute times where a high priority in their choice of where they live, wouldn't they all ready be closer to town?

We will see a reduction in traffic, just like we did the last time the Main Ave. bridge was closed for a couple years. First the construction will chase most drivers elsewhere, then once the construction is completed traffic will return, but only to the level that the new capacity will handle effectively. Maybe a 10 - 15% reduction.

The downtown living tread will fade just like the Flats and Warehouse entertainment zones did and will. A couple high profile crimes and the next generation of young, cool people finding their own place to live and party, it's just the latest teen heartthrob. The thought that your entire residential population will continually turnover every five years or so just isn't a realistic, sustainable model.

Bill

Bill Trentel wrote: The thought that your entire residential population will continually turnover every five years or so just isn't a realistic, sustainable model.

Bill

That sentence is a great retort to all of the reporting being done about downtown development.

People have to read the Plain Dealer between the lines to get a realistic view about what is actually happening.

When the PD was reporting on the new County Admin building they mentioned that "desolate" area of Euclid Avenue. Hundreds of millions were spent to subsidize development along Euclid and the area is still desolate?

Buried in other articles are references to the vacant Huntington Building, the vacant May Company building, the nearly vacant National City Bank Building and others. Their article about the economic benefits of Playhouse Square never mentions that Playhouse Square needs millions in operating subsidies to survive. It's nice to see new activity downtown but what is the opportunity cost of all of that taxpayer subsidized development?

Concentrating on subsidized apartments while the City continues to hemorrhage residents and jobs seems a fools errand.

I happen to support the Shoreway project but I don't think it is any kind of panacea. Unless we refocus our efforts to increasing the number of jobs downtown subsidized apartments are a bad investment. We don't have a housing shortage we have a jobs shortage.

Of course, I am annoyed, confused and perplexed with a policy that centers on preserving the central core while our leading institutions like CSU, Tri-C and the Cleveland Clinic are engaged in actions that move their facilities further and further from the central core.

A mystery in an enigma wrapped inside a riddle. I suppose the answer to the mystery is the answer to the question: Quo Bono?

A thorough investigation into the Ameritrust Building purchase and subsequent financial transactions might begin to unravel what is really happening.
Fat chance. Slim chance. It's all the same answer.

Agenda 21 is a statement of goals or ideals. It has no binding authority. it is not a mandate or a law. It has less of an impact on your life than ISO 9001 or the American Bar Association. and the Shoreway remodeling project has no formal or binding affiliation with Agenda 21.
It is great that you do not like Agenda 21, but it has nothing to do with the Shoreway remodeling project.

I-90 and the present scale of the "Shoreway" are a legacy of big progressive government.
do you remember? the progressive tax rate on income over a certain point was over 70 to 90 percent. this was the 50s and 60s and 70s.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1253 ... earch=true



Suburbia and the big highway system is a product of big government and big business
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1111 ... earch=true

Suburbia and the big highway system is a product of big government and big business.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7301 ... earch=true

Suburbia and the big highway system is a product of big government and big business.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6586 ... earch=true

of course it took low fixed housing loans for industrial workers and industrial middle management to fill up suburbia with housing and commuters at a density high enough to justify the expense and scope of the highways. back in the days of union wages. For some reason this environment veers right wing today.

While I personally think the Shoreway remodeling project is not a good idea....it has nothing to do with Agenda 21.

In conclusion, 80 percent of the stuff build after WW2 wasn't worth building, and 95 percent of the stuff built after 1980 wasn't worth building.