The Observation Deck

As long as we are restricting residents yet again, and again...

The city's Law Department is considering a lengthy list of changes.

The proposal that has presented before council on June 4 would do the following;
Limit the length of a yard sale to 2 days at a time
Restrict residents to having a sale to 2 times a year
Create hours of operation from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Only one sign less that 5 square feet will be allowed on the property a day before and the day of the sale


I think we need to share the restrictions and say NO POLITICAL SIGNS except day before
election, and day of, limited to one location. A politician can go door to door, two days an
election cycle and only Mon-Fri 6 am - 8 pm. They can have one two sided sign or two one sided signs.

I have never seen anyone abuse signs placings more than politicians.

Real Estate signs, after all they are "yard sales" can only be placed out day of showing
and cannot be larger than yard sale sign.

How about the city enforces it sign laws on Lakewood Businesses, that they have turned
a blind eye to for years. No A-Frame Signs, No repetition in signs, etc.

Yeah, take it out on the residents just one more time.

Thealexa

Please take notice, you know how you wondered how we could worry about losing our freedom in public parks while there were more important things to work on?
Like yard sale signs?

Christopher

Overworked? Or just sitting around making small busy work for themselves?

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As always, presented with melodrama.

However...

These are stupid rules, more because someone bothered to take the time to think of them than the actual rules themselves.

Like I've said before, aren't there more important things to worry about than yard sales?

Jim O'Bryan wrote:As long as we are restricting residents yet again, and again...

The city's Law Department is considering a lengthy list of changes.

The proposal that has presented before council on June 4 would do the following;
Limit the length of a yard sale to 2 days at a time
Restrict residents to having a sale to 2 times a year
Create hours of operation from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m.
Only one sign less that 5 square feet will be allowed on the property a day before and the day of the sale


I think we need to share the restrictions and say NO POLITICAL SIGNS except day before
election, and day of, limited to one location. A politician can go door to door, two days an
election cycle and only Mon-Fri 6 am - 8 pm. They can have one two sided sign or two one sided signs.

I have never seen anyone abuse signs placings more than politicians.

Real Estate signs, after all they are "yard sales" can only be placed out day of showing
and cannot be larger than yard sale sign.

How about the city enforces it sign laws on Lakewood Businesses, that they have turned
a blind eye to for years. No A-Frame Signs, No repetition in signs, etc.

Yeah, take it out on the residents just one more time.

Thealexa

Please take notice, you know how you wondered how we could worry about losing our freedom in public parks while there were more important things to work on?
Like yard sale signs?

Christopher

Overworked? Or just sitting around making small busy work for themselves?

New City Hall Motto

Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • 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residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents • Restrict residents •

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Jim,

Maybe the city is receiving complaints regarding garage sales becoming a nuisance to a particular neighborhood. Given the substantial amount of people that flock to you when you are walking the steets, have you heard of concerns that garage sales are resulting in the degradation of a neighborhood?

Scott

You know I was going to stay out of this but you had to drag me into it....

For the record, I'm not saying you didn't know this I'm just putting it out there, but this was introduced by the Law Director Kevin Butler and not Council, Council just gets the fun job of considering it.

As Kevin is now the Law Director of the city he technically is not a politician, so the remarks about signs really don't apply to him and are miss directed to Council who initially had nothing to do with it. Don't get me wrong I really Like Kevin, just saying miss directed.

The reason given for these regulations is because pretty much no regulations exist at this point. Is that a reason to create them? I dont know. If nothing is blatantly being taken advantage of then no, however if it is I could understand it. I do however think these rules are a little unnecessary, but understand why they are trying to put them in.

However the nice thing is if you also think they are over the top you can come to a Council Meeting or the Housing Committee meeting and voice your opinion on the matter and ask your Council members to take your thoughts in to consideration before passing.

Christopher Bindel wrote:You know I was going to stay out of this but you had to drag me into it....

For the record, I'm not saying you didn't know this I'm just putting it out there, but this was introduced by the Law Director Kevin Butler and not Council, Council just gets the fun job of considering it.

As Kevin is now the Law Director of the city he technically is not a politician, so the remarks about signs really don't apply to him and are miss directed to Council who initially had nothing to do with it. Don't get me wrong I really Like Kevin, just saying miss directed.

The reason given for these regulations is because pretty much no regulations exist at this point. Is that a reason to create them? I dont know. If nothing is blatantly being taken advantage of then no, however if it is I could understand it. I do however think these rules are a little unnecessary, but understand why they are trying to put them in.

However the nice thing is if you also think they are over the top you can come to a Council Meeting or the Housing Committee meeting and voice your opinion on the matter and ask your Council members to take your thoughts in to consideration before passing.

I think you raise a valid point. Jim always talks about all these people up in arms and there are so many vocal and upset people on the Deck, but how many of these aggravated citizens bother to exercise a right they have to voice their opinion at council meetings?

Christopher Bindel wrote:You know I was going to stay out of this but you had to drag me into it....

For the record, I'm not saying you didn't know this I'm just putting it out there, but this was introduced by the Law Director Kevin Butler and not Council, Council just gets the fun job of considering it.

As Kevin is now the Law Director of the city he technically is not a politician, so the remarks about signs really don't apply to him and are miss directed to Council who initially had nothing to do with it. Don't get me wrong I really Like Kevin, just saying miss directed.

The reason given for these regulations is because pretty much no regulations exist at this point. Is that a reason to create them? I dont know. If nothing is blatantly being taken advantage of then no, however if it is I could understand it. I do however think these rules are a little unnecessary, but understand why they are trying to put them in.

However the nice thing is if you also think they are over the top you can come to a Council Meeting or the Housing Committee meeting and voice your opinion on the matter and ask your Council members to take your thoughts in to consideration before passing.

Chris

You continuously underestimate me as you apologize for City Hall. Yes I do my homework
and outreach. I actually have a pretty open relationship with most people at city hall.
Though the councilman where I have 4 businesses never returns my calls, matter not as
he is pretty ineffective anyway, so I work through where we have our home properties.
David Anderson is very easy to reach, talk with, and has no problem telling me when I am
wrong, and when it needs looking into. Best Ward 1 rep since Joe Gibbons.

Yes I talk with my councilman. I have a hard time making council meetings, but you
can bet I let them know. Actually one of the reasons we built the Deck with the help of
council people and Tom George was so that council and civic leaders could read many
people's thoughts with REAL NAMES so as to save many people time. There is no need
for them to ever take part, though Mayor George, Mayor FitzGerald and many council
people did and have. But it is there choice.

I could care where laws are coming from, I just hate that once again it is coming, and this
time at least they are bringing it forward, "restricting the residents." It is just getting old.
ZERO regulations on businesses, residents however, restrict, restrict, restrict.

What was it a slow day for Legal? Hell we are deep in a "racism lawsuit" while city workers
continue to talk about "those people," I would think he is real busy. No one stealing his
facts? Lets crack down on residents again? Did he decide he hated yard signs? Was he
along with Ed FitzGerald decide we must not let people sell off their goods to pay their
tax bill or mortgage and save their home from us taking it?

Thealexa

Let's not forget, loitering, parks, smoking in public parks, ribbon cuttings, and sign laws,
and ribbon cuttings, and resolutions, and ribbon cuttings, large crooked streets signs not
even the color the committee chose, that are crooked, and ?????

You might be right, I was wrong they are not busy, they are twiddling thumbs and
torturing the peasants with silly draconian laws.

SERIOUSLY - Let's agree, no more political signs, no political meetings in public parks,
especially after dusk.



ooops wrong clip I meant...



.

Quick question...how can you limit it to 2 days when the city itself has a 3 day city wide garage sale? Am I missing something???? Color me confused..as always...

This is a law in search of a problem to address because there is no problem. I am a regular garage sale attendee and rest assured there are few people in Lakewood doing ongoing sales, although there is a lady in Rocky River that has one almost every weekend.

This year, in fact, has been particularly slow for Lakewood garage sales - there just haven't been many.

How they manage to think up this stuff amazes me.

I'm with you guys, I don't see the purpose to these laws/regulations. Do excessive garage sales give a bad view of the city to random visitors driving around? Are the signs in violation of some other law/regulation? Are they...unsightly?

Maybe the city hopes to increase revenue by fining those people who violate these new laws/regulations. Wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last.

I'm reminded of the time Mayor Cain was on 60 Minutes in regards to the West End project...the interviewer pointed out that, under the current city definitions, the Mayor's home was blighted.

Roy Pitchford wrote:I'm with you guys, I don't see the purpose to these laws/regulations. Do excessive garage sales give a bad view of the city to random visitors driving around? Are the signs in violation of some other law/regulation? Are they...unsightly?

Maybe the city hopes to increase revenue by fining those people who violate these new laws/regulations. Wouldn't be the first time, nor will it be the last.

I'm reminded of the time Mayor Cain was on 60 Minutes in regards to the West End project...the interviewer pointed out that, under the current city definitions, the Mayor's home was blighted.

So the very day Lakewood gets an article about how cool and hip we are, the TV stations
lead with Lakewood cracking down on homeowners' yard sales.

To quote, "The community is looking to limit the way residents have yard sales." Why
I am sure that sounds cool, to some, it should be "One Person has decided to restrict
Lakewood law abiding residents again."

"More on the lengthy list or proposed restrictions..."
... which will restrict just about everything."

Doctor to patient, You have to stop shooting yourself in the foot, soon you will have no
feet left to walk on, what alone shoot."

.

Jim How did I underestimate you? I never said you didn’t do your homework (in this post). The only thing I “corrected” you on I even said I was doing it not necessarily because I didn’t think you knew, but I wanted to make it clear for others reading this.

How is me putting out the facts and then sharing my opinion (I thought that’s what you wanted) apologizing for city hall? I don’t know where you got that from.

Anyways, at this point it apparently doesn’t matter what I think on this matter as even if I were agree with you will turn it against me. So for the time being I respectfully will agree to disagree.

Christopher Bindel wrote:Jim How did I underestimate you? I never said you didn’t do your homework (in this post). The only thing I “corrected” you on I even said I was doing it not necessarily because I didn’t think you knew, but I wanted to make it clear for others reading this.

Chris,

I believe you think I shoot from the hip far more than I do. This is an easy mistake, I say
some pretty wild things, and it seems crazy. But I have my sources, and I would rather
continue my insight into what is going on, then blow anyone up or see someone lose their job.

Christopher Bindel wrote:How is me putting out the facts and then sharing my opinion (I thought that’s what you wanted) apologizing for city hall? I don’t know where you got that from.

Chris

This was built just for that. You are a very needed piece of this community puzzle. Level
headed, filled with optimism, an opinion far different from mine. The discussion is good.
This discussion is good, most discussions are good, if not for getting to the bottom of
something but what we can learn about others and ourselves.

Now when it is mentioned, it was someone working for Joe not Joe. That make it near
crazy, that a "worker" complains about taking too long, and it works through City Hall
to becoming a law with virtually no real examination. You ask the guy that brought the
ill conceived idea to council, and Chief Malley hire and fired by council. Objective? It
matters not who brought it to the table, they have all taken ownership with the exception
of David Anderson. Who begged for the study, some time, a realistic understanding of
the problems and issues. Nope, this one is on City Hall. When you mentioned a worker, I
took that to mean, well it is not anyone's fault really. My bad.

Christopher Bindel wrote:Anyways, at this point it apparently doesn’t matter what I think on this matter as even if I were agree with you will turn it against me. So for the time being I respectfully will agree to disagree.

Chris

If it makes you feel better, I often disagree with myself, and I find more and more information
and gather more and more experiences that are different from yours, and from others.
I hope you do not feel you have to agree with me or please me. Our lives and what we
need and want are very very different in some places, and much the same in others.
Together, with other voices we build a truer picture of Lakewood than will ever be
diagnosed at those communities meetings.

Here you can do it 24/7/365 wearing anything from suits to PJs, (to save Corey from
having to remark about visuals.) Over the course of a week or a month, anyone can
easily wade it and throw something on the table.

As always thanks for taking the time, and thanks for everything you do for our city and the LO.

There is a reason why I sign off with...


.

I can understand people having garage sales to get rid of things they and their neighbors no longer need, and certainly estate sales fall in the same category. I have not seen a problem with such sales recently, because I live on a very busy street (we can no longer have street parties, even).

But I have also lived on less busy streets when there were far more garage sales than I have seen recently. It is often an unpleasant experience because there is inadequate parking so the people just park anywhere: on the non-parking side of the street; on the tree lawn; in someone else's drive. I once had someone park in my driveway and when I suggested he move, he said he would only be a minute. I and my sledgehammer convinced him to leave.

So I don't like garage sales, but I tolerate them if they are relatively infrequent. My concern with unrestricted garage sales is that we have a lot of people not working, and we have always had enterprising people touring our tree lawns the day before garbage day, taking what they think can be sold. I would be upset if one of my neighbors decided to hold a constant garage sale selling what he had gleaned from the city's tree lawns; it would turn a residential neighborhood into a commercial neighborhood and that is something I think we should prevent.

So why should be legislate now before a potential problem has occurred (I'm assuming no problem has occurred; I don't really know)? Its because grandfathering is common when laws are written or revised; if you are engaged in an activity that is currently legal, and they ban it, you have a pretty good case that what you have should not be taken from you.

So if the proposed ordinances are not too restrictive, and would prevent a prospective problem, I don't see a problem with them. Who but the people who print signs, would be hurt? I think the proposed ordinance should allow advance posting of small signs, as it helps us plan our activities, but I also think there should be a fine if the small signs are not removed after the sale.

Christopher Bindel wrote:How is me putting out the facts and then sharing my opinion (I thought that’s what you wanted) apologizing for city hall? I don’t know where you got that from.

[quote="Jim O'Bryan]Chris

This was built just for that. You are a very needed piece of this community puzzle. Level
headed, filled with optimism, an opinion far different from mine. The discussion is good.
This discussion is good, most discussions are good, if not for getting to the bottom of
something but what we can learn about others and ourselves.

Now when it is mentioned, it was someone working for Joe not Joe. That make it near
crazy, that a "worker" complains about taking too long, and it works through City Hall
to becoming a law with virtually no real examination. You ask the guy that brought the
ill conceived idea to council, and Chief Malley hire and fired by council. Objective? It
matters not who brought it to the table, they have all taken ownership with the exception
of David Anderson. Who begged for the study, some time, a realistic understanding of
the problems and issues. Nope, this one is on City Hall. When you mentioned a worker, I
took that to mean, well it is not anyone's fault really. My bad.[/quote][/quote]

Sorry, I was under the impression this thread was about the garage/yard sale legislation, which is what my responses have only concentrated on, I dont know how the parks got dragged into this as well? I was trying to leave that behind as we aren't going to agree on that.

Christopher Bindel wrote:How is me putting out the facts and then sharing my opinion (I thought that’s what you wanted) apologizing for city hall? I don’t know where you got that from.

[quote="Jim O'Bryan]Chris

This was built just for that. You are a very needed piece of this community puzzle. Level
headed, filled with optimism, an opinion far different from mine. The discussion is good.
This discussion is good, most discussions are good, if not for getting to the bottom of
something but what we can learn about others and ourselves.

Now when it is mentioned, it was someone working for Joe not Joe. That make it near
crazy, that a "worker" complains about taking too long, and it works through City Hall
to becoming a law with virtually no real examination. You ask the guy that brought the
ill conceived idea to council, and Chief Malley hire and fired by council. Objective? It
matters not who brought it to the table, they have all taken ownership with the exception
of David Anderson. Who begged for the study, some time, a realistic understanding of
the problems and issues. Nope, this one is on City Hall. When you mentioned a worker, I
took that to mean, well it is not anyone's fault really. My bad.[/quote][/quote]

Sorry, I was under the impression this thread was about the garage/yard sale legislation, which is what my responses have only concentrated on, I dont know how the parks got dragged into this as well? I was trying to leave that behind as we aren't going to agree on that.