The Observation Deck

Hi Lakewood! First time posting on the Observation Deck. I wrote the article in the latest addition about Hens in Lakewood and would love to hear what my fellow Lakewoodites have to say about our pilot project proposal for responsibly raising urban hens. April Stoltz

http://lakewoodobserver.com/read/2011/08/09/hens-in-lakewood-you-bet

Great article. Why was is ever not legal in the first place? How best to support this movement at this juncture?

Mike Zannoni wrote:Great article. Why was is ever not legal in the first place? How best to support this movement at this juncture?

People don't know a lot about chickens. The go to answer everyone gives is that they are "noisy and smelly." That simply isn't true in the case of a few hens due to the fast compost effect. Also studies show that they cluck at 60 decibels. A dogs bark is 90 decibels, human converstation is 60-70 decibels.
It really isn't a new thing to have hens in the backyard in the surburbs, everyone did it until factories started doing in cheaper. The Government used to encourage everyone to keep hens. So, yeah, I don't know why they are not legal. There have been people with hens and noone even notices they are there unless they see them. Let's hope council will see that henkeeping isn't some disgusting hobby that only the ignorant and poverty striken engage in(Sadly, that seems to be the general understanding from statements I've heard). To help get the Ordinance changed to allow a few responsible citizens to raise Hens,learn more, or ask more questions, see the Hens in Lakewood Facebook page here:https://www.facebook.com/LakewoodOhioHens
And sign the petition here:https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dHpmT04wTGhseFVzTmctNjB2WV9aNGc6MQ
Thanks!

Cherise Sims said:

Let's hope council will see that henkeeping isn't some disgusting hobby that only the ignorant and poverty striken engage in(Sadly, that seems to be the general understanding from statements I've heard)

Peculiar--- since local farming and local organic sourcing is the obverse of "ignorant and poverty stricken" I wonder if some people just don't get it?

Stan Austin

There was a lively discussion from 2009 entitled "Chickens Coming To Lakewood? Maybe Other Critters Too..." (Gary Rice initiated) expressing, among other things, some people's concerns about urban chickens attracting rats, racoons, snake, coyotes, coyote-wolf hybrids, opossums, etc. (Maybe coyote-wolf hybrids was some other thread some time . . .)
(viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7788&hilit=hens).

Wonder if these concerns can be addressed in this new thread, by April or anyone else? And can anyone point me to the law that says that it's in fact illegal in Lakewood?

Stan Austin wrote:Cherise Sims said:

Let's hope council will see that henkeeping isn't some disgusting hobby that only the ignorant and poverty striken engage in(Sadly, that seems to be the general understanding from statements I've heard)

Peculiar--- since local farming and local organic sourcing is the obverse of "ignorant and poverty stricken" I wonder if some people just don't get it?

Stan Austin

I totally agree and I have been very shocked and saddened by the commentary I have seen and heard. One council member was known to reply that her parents "didn't come to this country to live near chickens" Or something to that effect. I think it's just what you said. "Some people just don't get it" and cannot seperate the poultry industry(large scale profit farming) and the smell, noise and filth that entails from backyard hen keeping. I mean it's 250,000 or more vs 6!

Mike Zannoni wrote:There was a lively discussion from 2009 entitled "Chickens Coming To Lakewood? Maybe Other Critters Too..." (Gary Rice initiated) expressing, among other things, some people's concerns about urban chickens attracting rats, racoons, snake, coyotes, coyote-wolf hybrids, opossums, etc. (Maybe coyote-wolf hybrids was some other thread some time . . .)
(http://www.lakewoodobserver.com/forum/v ... hilit=hens).

Wonder if these concerns can be addressed in this new thread, by April or anyone else? And can anyone point me to the law that says that it's in fact illegal in Lakewood?

I will use the words of noted poultry author Patricia Forman.."Predators and rodants are already living in Urban Areas. Wild bird feeders,pet food, gardens, fish ponds and trash waiting to be collected will attract raccoons, foxes, rodents and flies. Modern Micro flock coops"(And enclosed runs etc.) " are ways of keeping and managing, family flocks. That eliminates predator concerns"
In other words a nicely built coop and run keeps predators at bay. I would like to add that chickens are voracious omnivores who will eat snakes, mice, flies, fly larva, grubs, mosquitoes, slugs, baby rats etc.
and here is the ordinance that bans hens, tacked at the bottom after bears, whales, tigers, elephants and lions. is chickens...siiigh.
http://www.conwaygreene.com/Lakewood/lp ... -h.htm&2.0
Interestingly Lakewood officials forgot to add Horses and Goats..who knows what mischief could come of that?

p.s. I know that I am answering the majority of the questions here, it's only because I have researched and written so much. My Hens in lakewood Facebook page lists many my sources except for peer reviewed journal articles.

I was going to add some more thoughts of my own here, but, well...
maybe I was "chicken"?

Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:I was going to add some more thoughts of my own here, but, well...
maybe I was "chicken"?

Back to the banjo...

Yeah, I do enjoy a good chicken pun. And feel free to post your thoughts. But let me adress some of the concerns from your previous post. In short…Noise, odor, pests, property values, predators and disease can all be addressed as flock management issues. Flock management comes via education, which Hens in Lakewood is looking to provide; in conjunction with the OSU extension program. As for the ever present argument “My neighbor is stupid/lazy/doesn’t take care of his dog/etc. issue, I had this to say on a different post and it fits very nicely here and is also very true:
If hens are not properly cared for from hatch to laying age and beyond they will fall to predation or illness. Factory farms get away with the filth issue because they get rid of chicken poo via conveyer belt, they also medicate those chickens with so many antibiotics they can barely live outside of a sterile environment
The fact is that 65% of MAJOR us cities successfully allow backyard hen keeping (Yes, I researched it) and on the small scale it is a hobby primarily practiced by citizens who are educated, hardworking and concerned about sustainability and local food.
Just to reiterate: Hens cluck at 60 db, dogs 90 db and Humans converse at 60-70 db.
Most Hens are fine throughout winter (breed specific) without any outside source of heat. They generate massive body heat! 3-6 hens in a well-ventilated coop would be fine in the winter with proper diet.(Hi energy like corn, oatmeal etc.)
Moral of the story Hens are a lot of work! They can be very expensive, and lazy people wouldn't be able to keep them alive long enough to become a nuisance.
Thanks for listening. Here are some online sources for some of my info…
Noise: http://ohioline.osu.edu/atts/PDF-English/Noise.pdf
http://ohioline.osu.edu/vme-fact/pdf/0011.pdf
Find out more on my facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/lakewoodohiohens
*Edit* I forgot to address "mites, fleas and ticks" Generally since cheickens to not interact with wild birds and other animals this is not an issue. However, for the sake of argument lets assume they get pests on them.
1. Backyard Henkeepers don't have hens with a melted off beak(like factory farms) So they generally preen themselves free of most pests.
2. Hens dust-bathe, adding diatomacious earth to their dustbath helps kill pests naturally, there are also several easily obtained poultry pest control products avilable (Organic and otherwise)
3. We are lucky enough here in Lakewood to have a veternarian who is himself a hen keeper and is willing to treat chickens! Lakewood Veternary Hospital!

small flocks (4-6) in a predator free coop with hen run, fed table scraps and the manure composted for next year's garden. What do you get? Incredible eggs to feed yourself and your family. Homegrown eggs are better looking, better tasting and better for you. This isn't so much about saving money. There will be some real upfront cost to buy and house the hens properly. I want to raise hens for the eggs. Even the ones I buy for 3.59 at the store that are called "cage free" aren't as good as the eggs I get from Blue Pike Farm on E.72nd. Those hens get both feed and farm scraps and plants. They look different and taste really great. We would like the animal board members and any council member to come on a close field trip to visit the hen coop and run of a family that lives in the Detroit/Shoreway neighborhood so they can really experience that there is no smell, very little sound and how compact the space can be to raise healthy birds in a humane way. The question alone of humane bird treatment would be enough to give up most store purchased eggs for good. Join the Hens in Lakewood facebook page, sign our support petition and kindly talk to your friends and neighbors who may be initially skeptical about why this actually makes sense. Starting with a pilot project with three families is a risk free way to do this and iron out the kinks so we can pass a new ordinance and let those Lakewood families who take the OSU training class and house their birds properly raise hens for quality eggs so they can feed their families the best.

Just so that people know...

I'm not necessarily an anti-chicken guy. As an indoor pet bird owner, that would be hypocritical of me.

Fact is, I really do like birds of many feathers. I even have a good friend who raised prize-winning chickens in another suburb.

That point made, outdoor chicken raising is a very labor intensive activity, and there are many other very serious aspects to this discussion, including avian disease and even the question of using fowl in religious ceremonies by some groups. (their constitutional right by the way, or so I've been told, and a whole other issue...)

Then there's that discussion about using these animals for fighting...

I think about winter too, and the cold. An unheated chicken shed might not be enough protection for the birds when the weather get brutally cold around here, as it does every year, and no one wants to see domesticated animals endangered, and too... while certainly chicken clucking may indeed be 60db in volume normally, that situation changes quite radically when Mr. Fox or even Ms. Squirrel comes by to pay a visit.

All just questions of course, and not intended to be debating points.

I would not, after all, want to be the one to cry "fowl" here.

Back to the banjo... (There are a number of really excellent chicken songs!)

Gary Rice wrote:Just so that people know...
I'm not necessarily an anti-chicken guy. As an indoor pet bird owner, that would be hypocritical of me.
Fact is, I really do like birds of many feathers. I even have a good friend who raised prize-winning chickens in another suburb.
That point made, outdoor chicken raising is a very labor intensive activity, and there are many other very serious aspects to this discussion, including avian disease and even the question of using fowl in religious ceremonies by some groups. (their constitutional right by the way, or so I've been told, and a whole other issue...)
Then there's that discussion about using these animals for fighting...
I think about winter too, and the cold. An unheated chicken shed might not be enough protection for the birds when the weather get brutally cold around here, as it does every year, and no one wants to see domesticated animals endangered, and too... while certainly chicken clucking may indeed be 60db in volume normally, that situation changes quite radically when Mr. Fox or even Ms. Squirrel comes by to pay a visit.
All just questions of course, and not intended to be debating points.
I would not, after all, want to be the one to cry "fowl" here.
Back to the banjo... (There are a number of really excellent chicken songs!)

I am so sorry, I thought I answered the majority of your questions, and your questions are debate points. Considering the very definition of debate is civilized discussion. That being said, here are your answers. Heritage hens (the ones you can buy from hatcheries and breeders throughout Ohio). Have not had all of their better qualities bred out of them (unlike battery farm hens). These qualities can include cold hardiness, protective instincts, increased hen laying age and disease resistance. Since Avian flu is not a real concern in the U.S outside of factory farms, and most any pet can spread disease I’m not sure that disease is a real worry. Besides the USDA and the CDC has declared backyard hen keeping as a non-contributing factor in the spread of disease and offers free information on maintaining a healthy flock via its website. The tips include hand washing, and not allowing hens to mingle with wild fowl and chickens from different yards. If someone cannot keep their hands clean they should not own any pet.
A well-built chicken Run and pen offers predator protection and Lakewood Hardware as well as Lakewood Garden center have expressed interest I helping on that end. It is not hard to build a predator free coop. The prebuilt ones already fit the bill at around $350 and up. Remember chickens in the wild roost in low tree branches and bushes and have survived domestication for over 3000 years, they need coops to keep them safe from being stolen and to pen them in place to prevent roaming. Cold hardy heritage breeds do not need a heat lamp if there are enough of them in the right sized coop they provide all the warmth necessary for survival. Example 6 hens in a 6x6 well ventilated coop only need a heated water container or frequent water changes and increase in high calorie food; corn, sunflower seeds etc. They would be fine in winter.
The proposed ordinance bans roosters whose max decibel level is around 90db; same as a dog barking by the way. So Cock fighting is a non-issue and would be a matter for the police since it is an illegal activity. Ritual slaughter is one thing I am unsure of, but is it is indeed a constitutional right, then people are either doing it right now or it won’t be a problem anyway. As for squirrels, raccoons and rats etc. again that goes to a management issues. A well-built coop and run keeps ALL predators at bay.
And if you are not an anti chicken guy, consider the many resources available on backyard poultry managment that are available. You don't have to take my word on any of this.
http://www.urbanfarmonline.com/urban-li ... ation.aspx

Thank you for your considerate and thoughtful response, although whether or not a question would be a debating point would be...debatable, at least to me.

The first thing I heard was that there would be only 4 birds to a coop. Now, it will take 6 to keep each other warm in the winter? (provided they do not peck each other's eyes out?)

That beak issue is a very real concern with chickens too, and the real reason I recall that so many farm birds needed to have their beaks trimmed back a bit, not to mention their nails as well, if I remember correctly.

(There's a REASON for the old hen house expression "pecking order")

Look, I'm an old Pennsylvania guy from out of the hills and hollers long ago. With respect to coops, I've not seen a "predator-proof" chicken coop yet, although there indeed may be some out there. Predator "resistant", yes to be sure, but predator "proof"?

And that noise when a potential predator is in proximity? There is NO noise like an upset hen house...

Let's face it, at the last, a central problem with Lakewood is the close proximity we have to each other. You have to have a high degree of tolerance to live as tightly packed in as we are.

These points made, please however, do not necessarily look upon me as the face of your opposition. I believe that you will soon discover that there are many people who are not in love with the concept of city chicken. (excepting those who prefer that particular meal, which, of course, is not really chicken at all)

Ironically, a story told to my family about our unusual garage when we moved in was that it had once served as a chicken coop long ago, so I suppose what goes around comes around in this city...

Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:Thank you for your considerate and thoughtful response, although whether or not a question would be a debating point would be...debatable, at least to me.

The first thing I heard was that there would be only 4 birds to a coop. Now, it will take 6 to keep each other warm in the winter? (provided they do not peck each other's eyes out?)

That beak issue is a very real concern with chickens too, and the real reason I recall that so many farm birds needed to have their beaks trimmed back a bit, not to mention their nails as well, if I remember correctly.

(There's a REASON for the old hen house expression "pecking order")

Look, I'm an old Pennsylvania guy from out of the hills and hollers long ago. With respect to coops, I've not seen a "predator-proof" chicken coop yet, although there indeed may be some out there. Predator "resistant", yes to be sure, but predator "proof"?

And that noise when a potential predator is in proximity? There is NO noise like an upset hen house...

Let's face it, at the last, a central problem with Lakewood is the close proximity we have to each other. You have to have a high degree of tolerance to live as tightly packed in as we are.

These points made, please however, do not necessarily look upon me as the face of your opposition. I believe that you will soon discover that there are many people who are not in love with the concept of city chicken. (excepting those who prefer that particular meal, which, of course, is not really chicken at all)

Ironically, a story told to my family about our unusual garage when we moved in was that it had once served as a chicken coop long ago, so I suppose what goes around comes around in this city...

Back to the banjo...

1.The beak is an issue with farm birds due to close quarter living and boredom. Chickens that can't pick at bugs and grass tend to pick at eachother. The reason for picking and avoiding it is the reason we want to give each hen 1-1.5 sq ft of space each and an outdoor run.

2. I used 6 hens as an example, but a number between 4-6 hens is not unreasonable, loud or unmanageable. And why is it an issue that any animal would make a noise if threatened by predators? Dogs bark for a variety of reasons at a much higher decibel level. Which isn’t really an issue since a small amount of hens without a rooster do not make enough noise even when threatened to cause any real auditory disturbance, that's why people wake up to a flock of deceased hens if they don't take precaution to have a secure coop. Again, human conversation is 60 decibels, the OSU research was on a farm sized flock of chickens and still only measured it at 60 db. I will go ahead and let you have that nothing is predator proof. Sure a coyote or wolf might spend hours digging and biting through hardware cloth and wood to get at your hens, but wouldn’t the stray cats, small dogs , raccoons, squirrels, groundhogs, mice, lizards, frogs, rabbits etc. that are not protected by anything at all be a better target? I mean you really think coyotes are going to jump a fence and dig all night; without any dogs barking and scaring them off, to get at 4-6 chickens? I have searched the forums of 2 backyard chicken keeping blogs and could not find any trace of that happening even once. Free range chickens and chickens in badly built runs in rural areas. Yes! Urban areas with well-built coops? Not once! You may not like Cleveland but just down the road, chickens exist! Do you think coyotes don’t know how to cross W117th and eat them? It sure hasn’t happened yet! I hate using anecdotal evidence (the science major in me)but, My mom’s friend has them right by a park where coyotes live and they eat rabbits galore, but have not even tried to touch her hens! Besides, if we already addressed that they are not noisy and don’t smell; again we are only discussing the 4-6 hens not a barnyard full, why would people have such an issue with it? Historically chickens have been kept in small urban yards for years! NYC allows hens in backyards and rooftops New York City! In fact 65% of MAJOR U.S. cities allow backyard hen keeping, not one those cities have received enough complains to rescind the ability to keep them. It has been successful in every city because hens are a natural part of urban life; they have been for 3000 years! The pilot program will prove that. Or we can arrange a field trip for you to visit a backyard chicken keeper along with members of council. The home that will be featured on a PBS special soon, and where the OSU extension held classes. Every issue you could possibly come up with has already been addressed in over 500 cities the U.S most of which have the same or similar demographic as Lakewood.
Again, this is a pilot program, issues will need to be ironed out before the new Ordinace is presented to council. Give it a chance.
p.s. what kind of birds do you have?

Cherise:

First of all, a belated and most cordial welcome to the 'Deck.

And, as you have amply demonstrated, you clearly know how to present a persuasive discussion methodically.

Must be that science background...

Nice job!

My degree was in Political Science. (Can you tell?)

I really am not worried overmuch about hens in Lakewood, as I suspect you already know, but I do believe that, in this community, there are many opinions and minds to be changed, any time that someone wants to change something.

As for birds, I've had a number of different ones over the years, including my dear late "Groundparrot Gilligan", a severe macaw who helped to "predict" whether Lakewood's winter was going to last a few more weeks or not...

Animals, gotta love 'em!

Again welcome!

Nice to have you on board.

Back to the banjo...

(p.s. Just remember that I was minding my own business here, until my name was invoked from posting here way back in 2009....Was it Faulkner who wrote something about the past not being past? )