The Observation Deck

Just so you know, I met a lot of gay voters when I was running and a high percentage of them hated the fact that I was going after sex offenders. I know there is a difference between a committed relationship and a sex offender but many that fight for your rights fight for theirs too.

You think not being able to "get married" is the same as being in prison or not being able to vote?

Abortion was illegal at one time and may be again in the future. I do not want to strip woman of any rights, I want to protect unborn children's rights, just like I don't want to limit your right to swing your fist around until it interferes with my rights to not get hit.

How do you think we got our marriage laws, our theft laws and our murder laws? Most of our legal laws come from moral laws. I guess I can understand that I am attacking you and for that I am sorry. I started this as a general post and it has gotten carried away.

You and I are probably never going to change each others mind, but it was nice to have open conversation. One positive of a Gay Pride Week would be that it opens conversation at least once a year.

I think we can both thank God that we have the rights to speak about this honestly and openly, and once again I wish you the very best.

Ryan Salo wrote: One positive of a Gay Pride Week would be that it opens conversation at least once a year.

Pride isn't just for gays, but thank you for saying that Pride Week might be beneficial for opening a dialogue.

I appreciate that post very much.

Ryan Salo wrote:Just so you know, I met a lot of gay voters when I was running and a high percentage of them hated the fact that I was going after sex offenders. I know there is a difference between a committed relationship and a sex offender but many that fight for your rights fight for theirs too.

That's ridiculous. So your extremely small sample size is supposed to equate to many gay people support sex offenders?

That's like me saying conservative Christians want to bomb abortion clinics, kill the Jews, and kick out all Muslims. While some may want that, I'm sure a majority don't.

You think not being able to "get married" is the same as being in prison or not being able to vote?

No my question is mainly if you don't think homosexuals should get married because it's morally wrong, what about others who do things that are morally wrong?

Should women who've had abortions be allowed to get married? Should Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, or atheists be allowed to get married?

Abortion was illegal at one time and may be again in the future. I do not want to strip woman of any rights, I want to protect unborn children's rights, just like I don't want to limit your right to swing your fist around until it interferes with my rights to not get hit.

Of course but allowing homosexuals to get married or have equal rights has no negative affect on you. Punching you in the face would. Big difference

How do you think we got our marriage laws, our theft laws and our murder laws? Most of our legal laws come from moral laws.

I don't disagree. What I'm saying is who defines that morality? And is it your conservative Christian morality that should make the laws, a liberal Jews morality, a middle ground Muslim? Who has the right to define morality and therefore the law?

I think we can both thank God that we have the rights to speak about this honestly and openly, and once again I wish you the very best.

On this I can agree with you.

dl meckes wrote:

Ryan Salo wrote: One positive of a Gay Pride Week would be that it opens conversation at least once a year.

Pride isn't just for gays, but thank you for saying that Pride Week might be beneficial for opening a dialogue.

I appreciate that post very much.

Amen. When Bill Clinton came up with the abomination of "don't ask don't tell" I was heart broken. The protection of basic civil rights is the bedrock upon which this country was built. Allowing threats to those rights to go unchallenged undermines our way of life. Not extending human rights protections to all Americans threatens our way of life.

Ryan, I really believe that if you saw a man denied contact to his life partner of 30 plus years on his deathbed you would relent. This is what happens in our country. If gay people were allowed all the human rights heterosexuals take for granted, they wouldn't need a special gay pride week. Heterosexuals get the weddings, 365 days a year. Why deny a disenfranchised group one week.

Ryan Salo wrote:
50% of hepatitis and AID occurs in the homosexual lifestyle costing the county millions in health care costs
Higher rates of suicide than normal population (5x more likely)

To me these figures are pretty destructive.

Where are those statistics from? I'm just wondering. I checked CDC website: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsh ... Glance.htm. There are certain diseases doctors, by law, are required to report and HIV is one of those diseases.

According to the CDC, 40,000 people are diagnosed with HIV each year. Of those 40,000, some 30,000 are men. When the statistics are further broken down, 67% of new HIV diagnosis in men are male to male or (MSM) contact. To the CDC, MSM is not defined as consensual or non consensual. Furthermore, of the 10,000 new female cases, an overwhelming number (80%) were through heterosexual contact. Female to Female is not even a transmission category: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/women/res ... ts/wsw.htm. I find this statistic shocking because of the disproportionate number of heterosexual women contracting HIV. Does this mean the statistic for heterosexual men contracting HIV each year is too low? I believe so. These statistics are based on testing. The lack of testing could be due to the mentality of machismo and that it is a "gay disease", which still permeate some communities. Those mentalities are frightening and deadly. I've also posted the statistics for Cleveland: http://www.clevelandhealth.org/ActiveSe ... IVAIDS.asp. Lastly, while male to male sexual contact seems to be an important risk factor in the United States, in the rest of the world, the predominate mode of transmission is heterosexual contact.

On the matter of suicide, I took this from the APA (American Psychological Association) study on mental health in the LGBT community: http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb02/newdata.html. Furthermore, according to the APA and the NIMH, the leading risk factor to commit suicide is age, with the highest rates in those over 65 years of age: http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/oldersuicidefact.html. When I learned this fact in my Geriatrics course, I was blown away. I don't know why, but I always thought it was the moody male teen that committed the most suicide, and if he was gay (with family, religious, school pressures), that really increased the risk factor.

Jennie

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I've been reading this thread, and everyone is posting some well thought posts. All I can say at this point is as a professional musician since age 14, and influenced by musicians since I was born, it really is tough for me to identify with people that have prejudices. When your in a band, especially jazz, its your "chops", not your gender, sexual preference, color or anything else. Period.

You either play well and care about what your doing or you don't.

This is a interesting thread though, and in a perfect world, there wouldn't even be a need for this discussion. Shame the human race can't simply accept everyone for their "personna" and leave the rest alone.

Mark Allan Crnolatas

Just a couple of thoughts -to Ryan Salo

Gay men are not pedophiles. Pedophiles are pedophiles.

Sex is the natural expression for intimacy between two people - not just for procreation.

Most of the statistics that you cited were from Catholic sites - Concerned Women of America and others with their own political agendas that would deny rights to other human beings. Statistics are often schewed to put forward a certain agenda.

Most cases of Hepatitis C are from IV drug use - infected blood transfusions in the 80's and heterosexual men bringing it home to their wives and children.

I am the lesbian mother of three intelligent, successful and politically astute young adults who know that the way to live is by doing the next right thing, to cause no harm and engage in activities that uplift people. Also to stand up for what they believe in - which I have taught my children by example.

Think long and hard before you try and impose your belief system by claiming moral authority.

I would think that we would want to support any endeavor that looks to uplift and support those who are denied there rights by law.

Have a nice day.

Ryan Salo wrote:.

I never personally had a choice to make I have always been attracted to females.

What a coincidence! Me too!

How do you explain that?

Here we go again

Just like I have to fight against the Republican tendency for corporate greed those in the homosexual movement have to realize that a lot of the people they stand shoulder to shoulder with are for some sick things like the man boy love association and for the elimination of the age of consent laws. You personally may be for a monogamous loving relationship but a lot of those pushing for gay rights have a much larger darker agenda. I am sure that you are familiar with the "The Overhauling of Straight America" where lying is encouraged and making people that stand in the way look evil.

Here is that document

http://www.article8.org/docs/gay_strate ... auling.htm

BTW tonight's vote in city council opens the door for a lot of divisive celebration weeks that I hope all you are all willing to let occur.

Laurie Campbell wrote:

Ryan Salo wrote:.

I never personally had a choice to make I have always been attracted to females.

What a coincidence! Me too!

How do you explain that?

There are a lot of ways to explain it and I can get you more information if you are seriously looking for it, but my gut thinks you are just here to mock my thoughts.

Ryan Salo wrote:

Laurie Campbell wrote:

Ryan Salo wrote:.

I never personally had a choice to make I have always been attracted to females.

What a coincidence! Me too!

How do you explain that?

There are a lot of ways to explain it and I can get you more information if you are seriously looking for it, but my gut thinks you are just here to mock my thoughts.

You're right. I am mocking your thoughts. Most of your so-called "facts" are just downright laughable.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to my gay agenda, which includes: taking out the trash, washing the dishes, letting the dogs out, locking up the house, kissing my son goodnight, washing my face, brushing my teeth, and going to bed.

Pretty raunchy stuff, no?

What has happened to the founding fathers' beliefs of seperating church and state? This country has lost every bit of seperation between the two ever since the Bush administration took over the oval office.

Although I am a straight male, I believe that everyone should be entitled to who they date, who they marry and who they have a family with. The foundation of this "Great Nation" that we live in was that everyone is welcomed and accepted in this country. If we built laws based on only christian moral beliefs and the bible, it contradicts what the pilgrims came over here for 250 years ago. Not everyone believes in the bible, the qoran, the torah, etc. As a person of no particular faith, does that mean I have no morals?

I think gay marriage should be left to the individuals involved. Once again I am straight and taken, but if I were to leave for college tomorrow and have to share a dorm with a gay male it wouldn't phase me much.

To think that homosexuality is the root of HIV/AIDS is ridiculous. It's the same people that preach Sexual Education and Abstinence and all those topics at earlier ages that don't know anything about the topics.

That's like me saying conservative Christians want to bomb abortion clinics, kill the Jews, and kick out all Muslims. While some may want that, I'm sure a majority don't.

good way of looking at it.

I think the President is too caught up believing he is the voice of the majority, and not the whole. It's the role of the president to be chief citizen, chief administrator, chief justice, chief ambassador to the many neighboring nations. He is the image that the world sees when you mention the US. This is why America isn't the beloved America that it was when I first moved here. While the world is trying to become more open minded, the Bush administration is taking three steps forward and six steps back.

Our enemies are growing stronger because we are becoming a negative force in the globe. it started with global warming, the war in iraq, immigration, and now abortion and gay marriage. We cannot abolish the freedom of mankind. We cannot force beliefs of one group upon another. That's why we have to make choices, and have the ability to choose the life we want to live.


Foolishness follows, courage leads.

FWIW.

The National Association of Man Boy Lovers of America are pedophiles - not gay men.

Look up the pyschological profile of a pedophile - heterosexual male between the ages of 45 and 60.

That is not to say that I think that most heterosexual males are pedophiles but I don't like it when someone equates being gay as being a sex offender.

Ivor,

I am glad to hear your side in this discussion. The thing I hope while you are in college is that you take the time to learn about this so called separation of church and state that so many talk about. There was to be no government religion but there is no phrase like the one many others use, in fact most came here specifically to worship a God and live in a moral nation (one that they defined even though I am sure there were some that disagreed). Feel free to private IM me and I can provide you with some resources on it if you would like.

I am glad to see that you are able to have discussion without name calling and mocking people, and for that I applaud you.

Good luck in college, from what I have read from and about you, you will do great!

Mr.Salo,

I would like to encourage you to sit down in my Sociology class for a few days. My last week in school we discussed the wiring of the male/female brains and the natural selection process, birth, sexuality and coursthip rules.

The class is taught by a conservative Methodist male who went to Mount Union and grew up in a strict home in the mountains of Virginia where all they had was family, school and church.

Like the fact that males can be born with female brains, females with male wiring. Males with female bodies, females with male bodies. And yes, these females actually develop male sex organs that aren't as visible.

Maybe some classes up at the high school would help you in answering your doubts and questions.

You would learn a lot.