The Observation Deck

Thanks Greg! You will have to come to the next Kumbaya beer summit!

David Anderson wrote:1-The State of Ohio must solve the un-Constitutionality of our public school funding formula once and for all. The over dependence on local property taxes is dividing communities, destroying the residential base and is not a reliable funding source. (We all know why this hasn’t been done yet. Such a “solve” requires a set minimum per pupil expenditure to be established. Nobody is willing to do this.)

Transfering the tax burden to the State is not an answer.

How have things improved if each taxpayer sends an extra $5,000 per year to the State so the State can transfer $4,000 to the local schools so the schools can keep operating in the same way? You are not going to change the economics of school funding by asking the other guy to pay for it because YOU are the other guy.

This levy is a pay raise levy. The levy is to be used to provide 20% raises to school board employees. It is not an operating levy. The school board is pushing for the levy because they know the underlying threat from the teachers is: Give us what we want or we destroy your school system.

Comment I would like to throw out here. How many of the people leaning towards voting
no already have their children in private schools? It seems that those that are arguing so
strongly for private schools, are already using them and of course do not want any of their
tax dollars going to something they are not using. I mean so far it is pretty easy to
understand why Tim is saying no, I know why Richard is saying no, and lets be honest
Bill is as predictable on this issue as the sun rising each day in the sky.

Which is another thing that is starting to bother me, the number of people pushing who
will say they are pushing this levy (or not) whose children are in private schools and/or LCA.
It would seem that this cuts across their actual beliefs, and works against the schools they
have sent their children to. I mean it would seem, that LCA would benefit greatly as would
St. Eds if the levy fails. Could this be why there are no signs? No mailings, and mismanagement,
and blunders with this attempt? I mean if the levy failed, the schools would be forced into
selling off assets they now sit on. More parents would pull students and send them to LCA...

So smarter kids, or another burger place, er food place?

Let's stop being used by a few, vote for the levy, keep Lakewood dedicated to education
instead of the personal legacy of those few.

We want educated kids in our city, I am pretty sure about this.

As for the "private school takes in poor and ..." I think it can be summed up pretty simply
as "sure they do, its those three kids over there."


FWIW


.

Common sense tells me that the following schools districts can be rated “excellent” otherwise it appears that Ohio’s academia uses the rating generously.

Here are the 2007-2008 Top 10 ranking for the Ohio school districts

District Ranking Performance Index Enrollment Cost Per Pupil

1. Ottawa Hills (Toledo Metro) 109.7 952 $13,342
2. Solon (Cleveland Metro) 109.1 5,253 $11,373
3. Wyoming (Cincinnati Metro) 109 1,964 $10,677
4. Mason (Cincinnati Metro) 108.8 10,158 $9,335
5. Indian Hill (Cincinnati Metro) 108.7 2,163 $13,378
6. Miller City (Near Findlay, Ohio) 108.2 469 $8,242
7. Chagrin Falls (Cleveland Metro) 108.1 1,922 $11,326
8. Sycamore (Cincinnati Metro) 108.1 5,480 $13,024
9. Oakwood (Dayton Metro) 107.8 2,069 $9,444
10. Madeira (Cincinnati Metro) 107.6 1,389 $10,318


2007-2009 Top ranking for expenditure per student

1.Kelleys Island ($48,033)
2. Put-in-Bay (28.5)
3. Cuyahoga Heights (18.7)
4. Beachwood (18.3)
5. Orange (18.2)
6. Cleveland Heights/University Heights (15.7)
7. Youngstown City (15.4)
8. Shaker Heights (15.1)
9. Perry (14.9)
10. Princeton City (14.4)

When you self proclaim excellence or believe it from others without comparison you may find yourself not striving for improvement. The voters will determine the fate of the levy, not this forum.

Jim:
I've tried to make the point that private and charter schools ALREADY DO benefit from public school tax dollars. It's very much in their interest that the public school levy passes, as well.

We're all in this together.

Bill:

Ah, we meet again, my friend.

I see that I haven't changed your mind, have I?

Still, as we both know, there is truth in what you, and others say.

Salaries and benefits are indeed, a significant part of a school district's operational expenses.

And yes, if a levy goes through, the various bargaining units will probably push for a piece of the pie, at the next go-round of negotiations.

...but they will ONLY get more money, if they can bargain for it successfully.

Both certified and classified staff have bargaining units, and the Board must negotiate with both units when the time arrives. That's the law of the land.

Here's Lakewood's problem in a nutshell. as I see it.

Yes, Ohio's funding system has been declared to be unconstitutional, and Bill does have a valid point that, one way or the other, it involves tax dollars (and we do have a right to question their usage) every step of the way.

If, however, we choose to draw a line in the sand, here in Lakewood...

...if we start a virtual taxpayers' revolt here...

...if we try to roll back salaries, benefits etc...in the name of austerity...

...then, the problem would be, that our children could end up becoming the pawns in a very difficult game.

Firstly, since salaries and benefits can't be unilaterally cut, without first going through a labor negotiations process, cuts would then need to be made with student programs first. Generally, the arts and music programs would be the first to suffer, either through cutting a program altogether, or by pay-to-play alternatives. Of course, staff reductions would follow, and class sizes can increase. At the next round of labor negotiations, things would get even more difficult. If an impasse happened, you could even see strikes.

Perhaps the worst effect of tight money is what it can do to the morale of a school district and the community. I've lived through that, in the community where I taught, and the remnants of the last strike are still fresh in the minds of many. People may forget, but even Lakewood went through a teacher's strike, many many years ago. It took years for the community to get over that one.

In short, there are BIG problems with many aspects of education that will not be solved simply by a "no" vote on a levy. That just opens a pandora's box of more problems for a community down the road. Property values can plummet, quality of life issues can increase, and ultimately, the young people are the ones who suffer.

There are many difficult sides to the issue of educational funding. We cannot solve all of those issues in Lakewood alone. If we choose to make a habit of turning down school levys here, a predictable and very difficult scenario will follow for our community, and more importantly, for our children.

Still, it's your choice. Don't say I didn't try to put the facts on the table. I'm only trying to avoid what happened in the district where I taught.

Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:Jim:
I've tried to make the point that private and charter schools ALREADY DO benefit from public school tax dollars. It's very much in their interest that the public school levy passes, as well.

Gary

The last two private schools that closed in this area did so over enrollment, not funding.

FWIW



.

Richard –

By looking at the Cuyahoga County districts you listed, one would think you should be proud of Lakewood’s performance.

08-09 Rating
1 – Lakewood: Excellent
2 – Solon: Excellent with Distinction
3 – Beachwood: Excellent with Distinction
4 – Shaker Hts.: Effective
5 – Cleve. Hts./Univ. Hts.: Continuous Improvement

Lakewood is third on this list.

08-09 Per Pupil Expenditure
1 – Lakewood: $12,714
2 – Solon: $12,647
3 – Beachwood: $20,038
4 – Shaker Hts.: $15,495
5 – Cleve. Hts./Univ. Hts.: $15,037

Lakewood has the second lowest on this list.

08-09 Percentage of students “Economically Disadvantaged” (total enrollment)
1 – Lakewood: 49.7% (5,605)
2 – Solon: 6.8% (5,188)
3 – Beachwood: 6.8% (1,472)
4 – Shaker Hts.: 27.2% (5,387)
5 – Cleve. Hts./Univ. Hts.: 57.2% (5,952)

Lakewood and Cleveland Hts./University Hts. are in a different galaxy.

08-09 Percentage of students “Limited English Proficient” (total enrollment)
1 – Lakewood: 8.1% (5,605)
2 – Solon: 2.7% (5,188)
3 – Beachwood: 1.7% (1,472)
4 – Shaker Hts.: 2.7% (5,387)
5 – Cleve. Hts./Univ. Hts.: 1.0% (5,952)

Lakewood, again, has three times more than the second place districts.

08-09 Percentage of students “Students with Disabilities” (total enrollment)
1 – Lakewood: 15.7% (5,605)
2 – Solon: 9.6% (5,188)
3 – Beachwood: 14.4% (1,472)
4 – Shaker Hts.: 14.3% (5,387)
5 – Cleve. Hts./Univ. Hts.: 18.0% (5,952)

Lakewood ranks second on this list.

Gary Rice questions how private schools can succeed without government control when he says....

Think about that for a moment, if you will ... the education of your children, totally removed from public oversight and controls, and placed TOTALLY into the hands of the private sector....

That must be what President Obama's parents were thinking when they sent him to a private school in Hawaii. And what Obama himself must have been thinking when he sent his children to private school, first in Chicago and then in D.C. And that must be what Education Secretary Arne Duncan's parents were thinking when they sent him to a private school in Chicago. And that must be what 38% of those who comprise the 111th Congress must be thinking, when they sent (or send) their children to private schools. All these folks must have been very concerned about the lack of government oversight of the schools their children attended.

Or maybe not....

Now it turns out that, as CEO of Chicago public schools, Arne maintained a list of politicians and influential business people who sought “better placement” (school choice) for their children in Chicago’s public schools. The list included 25 aldermen, Mayor Richard Daley’s office, House Speaker Michael Madigan, his daughter Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan, former White House social secretary Desiree Rogers and former U.S. Sen. Carol Moseley Braun. This is the same Arne Duncan who as recently as this month continued to deny the same opportunity for low-income parents to send their children to the school of their choice, despite the fact that his own Department of Education concluded that by so doing, those very children were enjoying a better educational outcome.

The notion that schools cannot properly serve their students without government oversight is preposterous. And by the way, I can “source” the statements in the above paragraphs, just as I can source everything I wrote on this forum that I don't offer as an opinion.

Speaking of sourcing, help me with these statements if you would please Gary, since you assert that you only articulate “clear and demonstrable facts”....

There are many safeguards in place across the board nowadays to deal with truly bad teachers from whatever district.

Could you specify those safeguards? Because my understanding is that, once a teacher achieves tenure after only a couple years or so, he/she is almost impossible to fire, short of say sexual imposition or drug dealing. Estimates I've seen of the cost of removing a bad teacher are in the $200,000 to $250,000 range. It's cheaper to warehouse bad teachers like they do in NYC and LA or just leave them in the classroom as is usually the case.

The trouble often lies with resources and supplies. (...) As well, the demands of the technological internet age, and the constant updating of computers, has brought even more expenses into the classroom...

What resources and supplies are dramatically hiking school costs here in Lakewood? Here, salaries and contract services comprise slightly over 100% of the 2010 forecast budget, and they grow to 125% of the 2014 forecast budget. YOWZA! “Supplies and Materials” comprise under 3% now and in 2014. I hardly think that “the trouble often lies with resources and supplies, or the Internet age. Heck the Internet could very well be helping reduce teaching costs dramatically.

There IS, unfortunately, a strong financial correlation between student success and dollars paid out.

Gary can you cite for us any studies that conclude that higher teacher salaries produce better educational outcomes, when exogenous factors such as economic status, quality of facilities, parental involvement and the like are also accounted for? I haven't seen any.

As for the alternative? If people do not think that a "gloom and doom" scenario would be in the works, if a community did not support their schools, just look around to the neighboring communities in our county. Look at their property values, their quality of life issues, and then look at whether they have supported their schools or not.

Gary can you find for us studies that show that when a vibrant, economically sound community fails to pass a school levy, that community will inevitably decline? I'm with Grace. I just don't buy it. In my mind it's very much a “chicken and the egg” question. Which comes first? The decline of a city generally, or the decline in the quality of their schools? I happen to think it is the former. Remember, correlation does not imply causation, as your statement above seems to infer.

Thanks in advance for helping document those assertions. Just one more thing....

There SHOULD be absolutely NO relationship between salaries and good teaching performance.

Say WHAT?

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Gary Rice wrote:Jim:
I've tried to make the point that private and charter schools ALREADY DO benefit from public school tax dollars. It's very much in their interest that the public school levy passes, as well.

Gary

The last two private schools that closed in this area did so over enrollment, not funding.

FWIW


.

Jim,
In the private schools enrollment is funding...no tuition, no funding.

Bill
(Lakewood schools, grad – Lakewood schools, parent)

Tim:

That's a very well-thought out post.

I'll briefly try to address your points.

Public schools are for everyone. Private school are for those who can afford to pay, or who receive aid. Private schools are oftentimes very good, and even excellent, but they, necessarily, do their own oversight, and play by their own rules; rules that might not be permissible in the public sector.

More to my original point, would the public have a better redress of potential grievances with private, or public schools? I would think, the latter.

Frankly Tim, I believe that the single biggest impact on education lately, has been the inroads that the Federal government has made into the local district. As you are well aware, that brings money in, but it also brings in a greater lack of local control, and that can be deeply frustrating to parents, teachers, and administrators.

I'm aware of a private college that refused federal funding because of the strings attached to that funding. They made a good point. Public schools, on the other hand, must go along with Federal mandates. The term "underfunded mandates" has sometimes been used when a federal mandate does not pay for itself, and that too, is an issue at the heart of school funding.

Yes Tim, here I would agree with you. Salaries and benefits are perhaps the single biggest expense that public school districts have. That's indeed a problem, but the solution can be much more difficult to address, for reasons already given.

Regarding so-called bad teachers, throughout their careers, there is an appraisal process that varies from district to district. Tenured teachers have to go through that process, just as new teachers do. (although usually, not as frequently) If problems are noted, they must be addressed. The termination of any employee is certainly possible, provided that due process is followed.

On another thread, I believe that a teacher posted some of the advances in technology happening in the Lakewood Schools. Technology costs money too, but can greatly aid with the students' futures.

As for a financial correlation and the success of a district? Just look to our eastern and western outlying suburban neighbors. The more money a district has, the higher they seem to rank. Draw your own conclusions, I guess.

No, a community will not necessarily decline if they fail to pass a single levy, but if they repeatedly refuse to support their public schools, I think there's enough evidence out there to show what happens next.

And finally yes, I did say that in the final analysis, a salary should not impact teacher quality.

But I also did say that a teacher has the right to bargain for a better wage.

By the way, people should know how very much I admire Tim personally, in a number of aspects of his own life. The fact that we might disagree on some points here in no way suggests any diminution of that admiration.

Gotta get back to that bike of mine, Tim.

Back to the banjo.

Bill Trentel wrote:

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Gary Rice wrote:Jim:
I've tried to make the point that private and charter schools ALREADY DO benefit from public school tax dollars. It's very much in their interest that the public school levy passes, as well.

Gary

The last two private schools that closed in this area did so over enrollment, not funding.

FWIW


.

Jim,
In the private schools enrollment is funding...no tuition, no funding.

Bill
(Lakewood schools, grad – Lakewood schools, parent)

Bill


I completely understand that. But which comes first, enrollment or funding? Dare I
say enrollment. So in the big picture, just because I am so twisted and good at this.
Levy fails, schools are unloaded, and many of the students that can afford private pull
out and go there. A couple years later, levy passes and the new strong schools get our
public tax dollars for bolstering their funding.

Meanwhile one or two more schools become charter schools.

Now I want it to be said, I have nothing against Charter Schools, except they seem to
have the ability to not be as accountable, as a public school is. Except for how they
handle little Bobby and Betty. Tell the parents they are gifted, and the checks keep
coming in.

But I do see a serious need for a strong public school system, and I also see a real need
in continuing down the road of a community dedicated to education and learning. It just
sends a great message to other communities and people.

I see this as not just a form of keeping schools up to snuff, but great PR to attract new
residents.

But what do I know?

Lakewood graduate, no kids, more than one home, and voting YES to support schools.


FWIW


.

Jim,

You and several others have mentioned that the failure to pass this levy will affect the public funding private schools receive from ODE. I’m positive they don’t get the $12,714 per student that the Lakewood School District receives.

Will someone please post the amount of funding a private school receives per student from the state. The only private school funding that I was able to locate in the ODE website was a 25 percent reimbursement of their qualifying administrative expenses.

Dave,

The overall state rating for Lakewood School District for 2008-2009 is 96.4 out of 120. When I went to school, a very long time ago a 96.4 out of 120, or 80.3 percent correct answers was just barely a B-. The district met 26 out of 30 indicators or 86.7 percent for a B.

I never had a teacher call a B- or B grade excellent [although in my opinion it was] when I was in school and we were never graded on the curve. The school district is receiving “A” grade funding and it should deliver “A” grade results. What the community has is a school district asking for funding and proclaiming excellence instead of shouting we can and will do better.

Funding:

Unless the great State of Ohio can print money like the feds, school districts should have reserves for economic downturns. Even with reserves, public school districts had better get touch with reality during tough economic times. Regardless of the funding method the state uses, schools will not be immune to recession.

If we really want to revise education in this state the school districts should be consolidated into one county district. The saving alone in administrative expense will be enormous and the political influence in Columbus would increase proportionally.

Gary Rice says....

By the way, people should know how very much I admire Tim personally, in a number of aspects of his own life. The fact that we might disagree on some points here in no way suggests any diminution of that admiration.

And likewise, I've met and conversed with Gary many times. I've even had the pleasure of hearing the legendary banjo. Gary is one of the kindest and most compassionate people I have ever met, and isn't that what it's all about? Thank you my friend for your nice words....

Back to the buzzsaw....

Richard -

Richard Baker wrote:Dave,

The overall state rating for Lakewood School District for 2008-2009 is 96.4 out of 120. When I went to school, a very long time ago a 96.4 out of 120, or 80.3 percent correct answers was just barely a B-. The district met 26 out of 30 indicators or 86.7 percent for a B.

Applying your methodology to these numbers is simply is not the way it works. Students can get an A+ and still not be considered an honors student. The level “Excellent with Distinction” level is equivalent to the honors grade. This still makes the A, or “Excellent,” student valuable. It’s sort of like the SAT or ACT – nobody is supposed to get 100%.

Again, if you feel that Lakewood's administration can operate more efficiently while still earning the “Excellent” rating, well, stick to this argument and prove your point. However, trying to sully Lakewood's rating is, in my mind, ineffective.

Thanks Tim,

You are one of Lakewood's bright lights, indeed.

As to grades and formulas. Here's what I told my students:

In school, you can receive 5 grades; from an A to an E... (or an F, depending on whatever they called "failing" in that particular year)

...but in life, there's really only two grades; an A or an F.

You either did the job right, or you did not. In life, there ARE no other grades.

I was so fortunate to have come into public school teaching with a business and management background. That's why I feel that I understand some of Tim's, Bill's, and the posts of several others who come from outside of public education.

Business is a whole different world, than that of the ivory towers.

As a former Special Education teacher, I was a strong advocate of any student, at the high school level, experiencing at least some vocational training and job readiness skill attainment.

To me, that's one big flaw with the NCLB law. It is SO academic-oriented. Students need to learn people-skills, teamwork, common courtesy, fundamental accounting skills...I could go on and on....

...but at least, high school students can usually identify the iambic pentameter and inner meaning to be found within Lord Byron's "Sonnet on Chillon"....

...not, in and of itself, a bad thing, of course, as the poem's topic deals with freedom and repression, and is certainly applicable to the events of our day.

But still....what all of that might have to do with their first day working at a fast-food restaurant might be a bit of a stretch...

I've gotta be careful here or this argument could go into role-reversal mode.

Don't mistake my posting here. I do like academics, but we need to get 'em ready for the real world too.

Back to the banjo...