New Curfew Law

[Grace O'Malley]

No, Jim, you won't hear any more because there is NO justification for this law.

Show me the proof that curfews reduce crime.

They can't.

This law is a "feel good" law that does NOTHING to reduce crime.

Pat yourselves on the back, council members, you're doing SOMETHING about crime.

[Beajay Michaud]

Ryan

I want parents to be responsible for their bad kids, not all of society and our police.

.

I take kids home every-night just about because their lazy parents will not come get them. If they didn't want to come pick them up - why did they let them come over in the first place. (Or at least tell them to be home before curfew). Some of the kids are great kids in-spite of bad parents.
Its like the Cowbird that leaves it young for others to raise.

[Grace O'Malley]

Still no complete text of the ordinance?

Still no defense of it's purpose and effectiveness?

Still no plan to make parents aware of the new "law?"

I have yet to find a fellow parent who was aware of a change in the curfew in spite of the fact that the ordinance calls for the parent or guardian to be charged with a misdemeanor if a juvenile is caught out after curfew hours.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Still no complete text of the ordinance?

Still no defense of it's purpose and effectiveness?

Still no plan to make parents aware of the new "law?"

I have yet to find a fellow parent who was aware of a change in the curfew in spite of the fact that the ordinance calls for the parent or guardian to be charged with a misdemeanor if a juvenile is caught out after curfew hours.

I think it's the same as Ordinance 509.12 just with new hours.

If you feel strongly that the ordinance is not appropriate, then I believe you can always start a petition drive to get the question on the ballot.

[Suzanne Metelko]

Grace - If Cleveland has this curfew and Lakewood doesn't, what happens to the east side of Lakewood when Cleveland's kicks in? Those neighboorhood's are already stressed from the proximity. How would you solve the problem? Suzanne

[Grace O'Malley]

What problem, Suzanne?

Do you have facts, figures, crime statistics?

Has juvenile crime increased? If so, are the offenses occurring after 11PM at night or during the day?

Is there evidence delinquent Cleveland youth are entering Lakewood after 11PM and are they committing crimes at that time?

The incident at the library on Madison did not occur after curfew hours, BTW, so don't count that one.

Youth intent on committing crime don't watch the clock, they can come here anytime. They can come visit friends in Lakewood and sell drugs or steal at 1 PM.

And guess what, we have laws already on the books that cover drugs, theft, robbery regardless of the age or the time.

So what precisely will this new curfew do besides make delinquents out of our own Lakewood kids, many of whom are perfectly normal and legitimate?

It won't lower crime because its already been proven that CURFEWS DO NOT LOWER CRIME.

[Jeff Endress]

Grace

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying because I tend to agree with you (especially with one kid affected).

The new curfew law is like the perverbial broken tail light. Not every car with a violation gets pulled over. BUT, if it's a suspicious car, which is otherwise doing nothing wrong, the police can use a broken tail light as justification to "have a look see". In the same fashion, the curfew gives the Police probable cause to inquire of any young group to see if there is a curfew violation. We can't profile. That is wrong. But we can ask a group of saggin' punks for proof of age.

Jeff

[Suzanne Metelko]

Whoa Grace - slow down a moment and let me be clearer. The problem is that Cleveland has and is going to enforce this curfew. My point was that the east end of Lakewood is already dealing with an influx of teenagers. The problem is if you can't be out in Cleveland, how about going to Lakewood? My question is - how would you solve that problem of Cleveland's policy? I don't pretend that this law is a good law but Cleveland passed it and Lakewood has to deal with the results. I'm not advocating for the Cleveland's policy just trying to anticipate the unintended consequences for Lakewood.

[Kenneth Warren]

Tonight during a LO YO Roll (Lakewood Observer Youth Observation Drive), Dan Slife made a salient comment, “The Lakewood Police are the default daddies.â€Â￾

Around midnight we watched two Lakewood Police cars pop the Harding Middle School student with whom we had spoken several weeks ago when he and his posse were trespassing and cussing near Harrison School.

Alas, there seems to be no stopping this kid on his midnight run toward trouble. The kid had been busted for curfew violation a week after our intervention at Harrison. This is the same kid to whom Jim O’Bryan had given his card, after the Global Warming debate at Madison Branch Library, with the suggestion to call for a summer job delivering papers in Birdtown. The kid never made the call.

Tonight he had a friend also in violation. It looked like some alcohol in cups might have been in the mix, too.

The juvenile chaos we are seeing hinges on parenting, discipline and boundary conditions. Broken family systems lack order and spill chaos into the community. As a result the community attempts through curfew and other such rules to enact compensatory strategies for discipline and protection from the spill-over of chaos, petty crime and predatory effects.

As the wheels of justice grind, kids from families with disciplinary protocols and no expectation of police intervention will get cited in the curfew sweeps, too. That’s a hazard that comes with the Lakewood territory now, a compensatory mode of discipline that flows when your neighbors lack the ability to discipline their kids.

And, here I do agree with Suzanne Metelko, because we know very well from the folk anthopology and inquiry practiced thus far that Lakewood’s amenities often do serve as a chaos catch-basin for Cleveland kids on the move.

Yet I remain convinced additional police will be required to enforce the curfew, not to mention all the attendant juvenile justice and social mechanisms involved in the processing of the human services.

Clearly we could see the effects of the curfew tonight in the orderly streets.

The final question we pondered: What punishment mechanisms will follow from these curfew citations?

Does the citation become simply part of the kid’s routine contact with Lakewood’s “default daddies?â€Â￾

How effective is the discipline for curfew violation that flows from the “default daddy?â€Â￾

What are the unintended consequences of this curfew?

Kenneth Warren

[Jim O'Bryan]

My point was that the east end of Lakewood is already dealing with an influx of teenagers.

Suzanne

I have to side with Grace on this one. I have seen no increase in kids on Lakewood's Eastside. I have seen the influx at Burger King, Phoenix, in the parks etc. I have seen no influx on the "eastside." The east side has other problems.

How many of these kids would have been playing basketball? Had council demanded the hoops be reinstalled, instead of house arrest?

If we are to begin reacting to Cleveland's laws and plans then you are no longer talking of managing decline you are talking about a rush to the bottom. I am not convinced Curfew decreases crime, and most studies would point out there is no impact. Common sense would tell us it will increase crime, as you have just added more laws to the books.

Last night as I climbed out of our dark blue Chevy Malibu "Emerald Canyon Crisis Intervention" Patrol car. I listened to the police scanner. MOST if not all calls were domestic, and curfew violation. It would seem that we have once again added to the police department's work load with no increase in patrol numbers.

Another interesting thing which to track. Lakewoodites no longer talk with each other. Loud music, do not ask to turn it down, call the police. Car parked wrong, do not ask for it to be moved, call the police. Loud party, do not join the party or talk with those throwing it, call the police. Kids playing in the street at 4 in the afternoon, call the police. Is it possible that the nuisance law, has turned Lakewood into a city of intolerance and non-talking neighbors?

I must have heard on the radio twenty times last night. "We advised them to not talk to each other tonight." Are we losing the things that made Lakewood a great place to live?


.

[Gary Rice]

Talk about police as being used as substitute mommies and daddies....

That reminds me of a few years ago, when a local Scout troop had an inordinate number of musicians and so, invited me to a private home on a nice Lakewood side street, in order to work with them on their music merit badges. There were maybe 10 Scouts in uniform present, myself; also in uniform, and of course, the parent/owner of the home- all present. This transpired in the early afternoon.

As I was hearing each Scout's solo in the living room, the others waited patiently on the porch; either getting in tune, or warming up with their instruments.

Before long, a patrol car came by and the officer knocked on the door, with a chagrined and apologetic look on his face. He said he was responding to a call about a disturbance.

I practically begged him to arrest me. I thought it would make a wonderful news story.

After a gentle "warning", he quickly retreated to his car, and we were left to finish our badges in peace.

On the one hand, there are times that it's probably better to involve the police with a complaint, particularly if there would be a safety concern involved. All too often, in my opinion, people seem to go to one extreme or the other. Either they'll ignore serious crimes by not wanting to get involved, or they call the law only when they feel it to be an issue that won't hurt them later- like perhaps, complaining about a neighbor's too-tall hedge, or spreading tree branches.

Ah life in the big city.....if we each could only have 10 acres...

[sharon kinsella]

Okay - now my two cents.

1. Our children are not all criminals - just kids.

2. Someone said that there were plenty of other activities for the kids to get involved in that doesn't include shooting hoops and that would be ........?

3. Are we really worried about overflow because of Cleveland enforcing curfew laws? This is Cleveland your talking about - response time in Cleveland is how many hours!

4. Where is our free rec center that would have other things that the kids could be involved in? There is not a Cudell around here that I can find!

Just my two cents!

[Jim O'Bryan]

Okay - now my two cents.

1. Our children are not all criminals - just kids.

2. Someone said that there were plenty of other activities for the kids to get involved in that doesn't include shooting hoops and that would be ........?

3. Are we really worried about overflow because of Cleveland enforcing curfew laws? This is Cleveland your talking about - response time in Cleveland is how many hours!

4. Where is our free rec center that would have other things that the kids could be involved in? There is not a Cudell around here that I can find!

Just my two cents!

Sharon

Agreed!

Maybe we could turn McKinley Elementry School into the City Rec Center. Already has a gym, other rooms could be used for a variety of items, room for a baseball diamond, pool, playground already there.

It would be perfect. With the city talking of $20,000,000 or giving more to the Beck, why not give it to the residents.

McKinley Rec Center.

Good idea Sharon.


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[sharon kinsella]

Jim -

Sounds like a plan! I would be willing to help in the inception and possibly carry through - because of health reasons I cannot do the organizing for this - but I would do everything I could!!!!!

[Mark Crnolatas]

A few comments:

First, I agree with Chef Jeff, the curfew law is a "tool", so the police can, if needed, look into the reason a group or individual might be at some location that leads the police to be curious as to why.

Will it reduce crime? That I can't answer, but apparently the statistics say it won't.

Can we profile? This would also explain a post I made a month or two, but made it with a hour or two of sleep so I neglected to go into details.

If a police officer would see, for example a late model Buick with 3 women all appearing over the age of 60-70ish, well dressed, parked behind Drug Mart, my mother-in-law being an example, they might give a priority of attention, not any less mind you, but a priority of attention to a 10-20 year old car with oversized rims, with 6 guys dressed ala gangstas, with gangsta rap audible.

Can we call the above "profiling"?

BTW, I have nothing against rap in general nor clothing worn, nor the custom car, as long as laws are not being broken.

Last question: Does the LO really have a chevy malibu citizen patrol car?
(If I missed something, maybe I need to get out among adults more often)

Mark Allan Crnolatas