The Observation Deck

Thanks Pastor Joe.

Now we have two at-odds first hand reports with no way to discern their truth or reconcile their differences.

...not an uncommon situation.

You didn't speak to the issue of parental perogatives with respect to the religious education of minor children, but, it is clear enough that this perogative is not a controlling one for you and your associates.

Of course the perogative in its strongest form, ('adult strangers should not impose religious education/experience on someone else's children',) is not settled into a rule or anything like a rule.

Pastor Joe, I thank you for joining this complex urban dialog about community norms, skateboard culture, evangelical intervention, parenting and religion.

Let me cut to the chase.

I notice that you place blame on “careless witness.â€Â￾

Is it possible “careless witnessâ€Â￾ is the fruit of an evangelical intervention which targets children not supervised by their parents?

That is the concern here.

For it is unlikely that an un-churched child subjected to “careless witnessâ€Â￾ in the skate park will discern the nuance of between the sin and the sinner.

Perhaps that is why you can propose Danielle Masters “speaks inacquerately,â€Â￾ and why you “feel she must have her own agenda.â€Â￾

Is it correct to say that your ministry targeted youth without the consent of the parents?

Do you believe an agenda that surfaces from parental concern over such practice is illegitimate in the light “You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you freeâ€Â￾?

The bottom line is that in a secular society people may find it objectionable that evangelical behavior at the Skate Park violated the intimate space where values are formed between child and parent.

The “anger, confusion and irresponsible commentsâ€Â￾ you cite emerge from a sense that such an evangelical intervention upon youth without parental consent violates this complex intersubjective secular space.

The effort to advance a community norm is wrapped within the storm of “anger, confusion, and irresponsible comments."

That should not be trivalized. For this process, which now includes your participation, is certainly more than “some gossip column.â€Â￾

Intelligent living in the city with skateboarders and true believers and everyone in between is all about knowing our motivations and adjusting our behavior to achieve a level of harmony, love and peace.

I believe important questions still need to be answered. I hope you will find the time to answer them.

Kenneth Warren

Pastor Joe stated

I can understand it when a teenager sees, hears, or experiences something and not fully understands it

Having exposed these children to a message as complex as the ressurection,

I introduced myself to them and asked them how they liked the videos and if they understood them or had any questions

Thus, we have minor children exposed to a complex belief system that the person creating the exposure then explains. All without parental permission, input or oversight.
Pastor Joe's post is demonstrative of what I have said previously:

What I think raises the bar and causes the intellectualizing/politicizing is that underlying belief system that having been "called", behavior which would otherwise be unacceptable is somehow justified (even meritorious). There will be no acknowledgement of crossing the line, no acceptance of restriction

Agreement or disagreement with the message is irrelevant. The only point here is that it is parents' perogative to determine the time, place and manner of discussing religious beliefs with their minor children.
Dr. Calhoun is absolutely on point in observing;

You didn't speak to the issue of parental perogatives with respect to the religious education of minor children, but, it is clear enough that this perogative is not a controlling one for you and your associates

While some may opine that Pastor Joe's (of what church, with what training, from what denomination with a divinity degree from where ?)message provides differentiation, the technique of indoctrinating fragile minds, sans parents, is the same as that used by various cults. Identify maleable youth, separate them from customary support structures, confuse them, offer solutions to the confusion you created and presto-chango you create an unquestioning follower. Hence the concern here. No oversight of message, delivery, orexplanation. And yet a posture that this is Okay, because of the message delivered. Well, it's not Okay.

Jeff

Paster Joe

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

Think about it. think about what it really means.

Free from what? Free from who?

Thank you for entering the discussion.

Also why did you choose Lakewood?

Jim O'Bryan

First of all, Danielle Masters is a very spiritual, pious person with great integrity, as anyone who knows her will attest. I would be very surprised that she would behave as Paster Joe accuses:

But when an adult (and I am referring to Danielle Masters) tells what happened at the skate park that Thursday night and totally speaks inacquerately, I feel she must have her own agenda

Second, it's been said before that the main issue here is parental prerogative, and I concur.

Finally, although this is essentially off-topic, Paster Joe says:

My exact words were, "no, God does not hate homosexuals, drunkards or drug users. God loves the sinner but hates the sin.

Shelly Gould Burgess says: "Booooo!"

I will make this short and simple. Shelly thank you for the kind words. Paster Joe please keep your preaching to adults and minor children only with their parents prior consent. And I have NO ulterior motives, I have no reason to lie and I have no need to defend myself. Anyone that knows me knows I wouldn't lie, its just not in my nature. The only agenda I have is to let my husband, my kids and all the skaters that wish to come to the Lakewood skate park be able to skate in peace. Thank you.

Danielle

AHA! So, you admit to having AN AGENDA!

The only agenda I have is to let my husband, my kids and all the skaters that wish to come to the Lakewood skate park be able to skate in peace

Now that's out in the open! Wonder what the Ministerial agenda was in this indoctrination in the absence of adults ?! Hmmmm

Jeff

Pastor you should follow in the footsteps of Father Guido Sarducci. You are a funny man. For you to accuse a fellow upstanding citizen of lying and having a personal agenda is clearly a joke. He who came into this city to promote his personal agenda and using minors as his foot soldiers? Seeking out to warp the minds of our unsupervised children? Question: Do you seek youth at soccer games and baseball games? Probably not, because parents are there to let you know you are out of line.

Stosh:

Guido was truly funny. We could turn him off or change the channel if SNL was offensive. The kid were already in bed. Not so with "Pastor Joe".

I'd still like to know where the Pastor recieved his training and education. I know my brother (BA Religion Trinity, MA Religious studies Duke, Docorate of Divinity TCU) spent ten years in university studies. He works in Christian Education and Outreach at a large Houston Methodist church. He doesn't script encounters with young persons. He opens his doors to those with questions, concerns and spiritual inquiry.
As I (prayerfully) talked with him about the Skate Park incident, he questioned why there was no input from the City's religious leaders. I know the Observer is young, and that although we seek to involve all of interest in Lakewood, I also wonder where is the input from our city's(strong) religious leadership.
Would the Lakewood leadership of the Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jews, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Muslims, Druids, Orthodox, Pagans, (did I miss any?) care to put their oar in?

Stosh:

You make me laugh.

Will you be suggesting to the Mayor that the naming rights to Lakewood's Skateboard Park might be purchased by Father Guido Sarducci?

Sarducci Skateboard Park. Almost has the heavenly ring of cosmic laughter to it.

Will you be asking Councilman Demro to pass the Sarducci Resolution, which will protect children from exposure to evangelization in public spaces without the express parental consent?

More seriously, I did find something in general research into the skate board park evangelization movement that suggests the level of stealth to which some evangelicals are called in working with youth. In “Getting out of God's Way Freeing Our Inner Theologian," Dean writes:

“Practical theology approaches relationships with teenagers as a practice, a way Christ chooses to be present in the world and usâ€â€￾not as a strategy designed to lure teenagers into trusting adults. In other words, instead of winning teenagers' trust for the sake of presenting a Christian message (think, playing crazy games with teenagers for an hour before hitting them with a God-talk at the end, or hanging out at a skate park to gain enough street cred to invite skaters to church), we befriend teenagers for the sake of Christian friendship, because this is a time-honored way Christ chooses to reveal himself to us (Matthew 18:19)."

I would be interested in hearing whether or not Pastor Joe finds such deceptive practice credible witness or "careless witness."

Kenneth Warren

it seems as though all of my satin worshiping skate boarding friends all need to start hanging out at the skate park... so they will leave my young cousin who skates there alot... alone..

Pastor Joe Raddish wrote: Isn't getting to the truth of the matter more important to you all than just slinging comments and slurs like some gossip column?

Yes, indeed, getting to the truth of the matter is much more important. Thank you so much for posting. I apologize for initially jumping to conclusions (ya know you can get hurt doing that!) about the methods, motivations, and mindset of the outreach group. When I heard later that they were from Lakewood Foursquare Church, I knew we were missing something here and it was important to hear from someone who was a part of the group.

Pastor Joe Raddish wrote: Our purpose was to share God's love, joy, healing and victory with the teens of your area in a nonthreatening, non-judgemental, and especially not a shove-it-in-your-face-and-accept it way. No one ever said skate boarders were evil and going to hell....come on! Five of our youth skateboard and even had their boards on the trip and skated before and after some of the ministry. Nor did I or anyone else say God hated homosexuals and they were going to hell. Neither did I tell a young lady who was still hurting from her fathers death that he was going to hell.

Thank you, also, for explaining that. Like Steve said:

Stephen Calhoun wrote:Now we have two at-odds first hand reports with no way to discern their truth or reconcile their differences.

...not an uncommon situation.

There is already something positive coming out of this entire event: This discussion. This was an upsetting event for Danielle and her family, and others at the skatepark. We all like to say we love Lakewood for its diversity. But, in reality there is adversity connected with diversity (Steve, help me out here)

Kenneth Warren wrote:Intelligent living in the city with skateboarders and true believers and everyone in between is all about knowing our motivations and adjusting our behavior to achieve a level of harmony, love and peace.

I believe important questions still need to be answered. I hope you will find the time to answer them.

Ken - you've got a wonderful way with words. "Knowing our motivations and adjusting our behavior" - this is no easy process. What level of harmony, love and peace can we achieve? Not sure. This too is a work in progress.

"Bless those who persecute you: bless and do not curse.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
Be of the same mind toward one another.
Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all. Romans 12:14-18

Ellen:

Thank you for a generous and inspiring post.

This is indeed a work in progress, a city in transformation, at least in the intersubjective spaces of our Lakewood lives reflected and flickering here in words.

I realize lengthy digressions can be a drag on attention and time, and that attempts at humor contain aggressive turns easily off-putting.

But you have stayed with the dialog and entered again here to sound a harmonious note. Thank you again.

This process is all part of the rough and tumble of life in the city that would know itself more than any other city, thereby finding itself in the Guinness Book of World Records, as Steve Calhoun has proposed this workout in Lakewood.

Our living together in Lakewood becomes thicker and richer with meaning and understanding through persistent, reasoned, humorous, nuanced, transformational dialog over our differences, which we doing with real names and civic accountability to each other in the Lakewood Observer.

These digressions may seem belabored, producing no relevant relief to actual mothers with problems to solve for their young children who want to enjoy the park without being hassled by evangelists offering confrontational messages.

Yet as you demonstate to me the digressions can also become spun into a labor of love for our city and our people by Christian believer and atheist alike.

Push and push back can occur along lines that demonstrate insensitivity and heighten sensitivity.

Clearly Jeff’s point about sensitivity and the effects of a true believer’s insensitivity to effects of their mission on others is an excellent one.

In a diverse community our desires, our beliefs, our intentions, our goals may produce disturbing effects within the larger interpersonal matrix.

When the religious platform is militant, intolerant, prone to “tough loveâ€Â￾ and pious cruelty, the effects of evangelical behavior upon the interpersonal matrix is likely to be disturbing.

That Christian believers are convinced that they possess a divine gift is, at least within the interpersonal matrix of a diverse world and civil society, no free pass to a “church militantâ€Â￾ display of force on children and youth.

At the same time it likely the determined and sincere pushback to Pastor Joe’s ministry, to reports of what went down, whether actual or perceived, the personal indignation of parents joined to extended critical scrutiny of psycho-social and political dynamics of religion in urban living, could produce disturbing effects for true believers with ears to hear.

That is why I personally find your Christian interests, insights and positioning within this dialog which is applying critical pressure evangelical practice immensely valuable, and convergent with the harmonious note of life in the good city.

It seems to me that your ear is attuned to a harmonious center, your listening and reading of others is nuanced, and your participation is very refreshing.

I do hope that you will do some writing for the Lakewood Observer on religious topics.

Again thank you for making the effort and posting some valuable material.

Kenneth Warren

Ellen and Ken--- I will presume to speak for the rest of us by stating that we are all benefitting from the insight you both present in your postings.

The "debate" if it can even be called that is at least in my case causing me to examine many of my preconceptions.

Would that this level could carry over to its place of origin, the skatepark!

Stan Austin

Stan:

Thank you for your encouragement.

I had an interesting experience in communication this morning, relevant to our inquiry here.

While walking past the skate park, beside the eastern fence, I observed a young skateboarder, approximately eleven years old, who completed a daring move off a ramp.

I attempted to shout a compliment his way.

From the fence I bellowed at him "WHOOA REALLY NICE......"

The boy looked at me puzzled, tentative, very courteous, almost apologetic.

He said, "What?"

"Hey dude, that move was fantastic. You're really good," I clarified.

He said, "Oh, thanks, I thought you were yelling at me."

I learned a valuable lesson.

Silence is golden.

Youth are tender and sensitive.

Good intentions sometimes miss the mark.

Given all our attention to the skate park recently, I felt compelled to take a risk, to participate in the action, if only by extending a compliment. Of course my risk was different.

I jumped from an interior ramp into a field of psycho-social space to compliment a young person.

Verbal communication as simple as a compliment can be misinterpreted by a young person. Clearly young people are naturally sensitive and tender in their very being.

I believe, therefore, it is only reasonable to acknowledge the complex effects instigated from good intentions.

Parents who live day in and day out with children in tender condition are wholly justified in their sensitivity and impulse toward protection.

At the same time, I learned that unless careful, a compliment from stranger could be misperceived by a child and a disturbing message conveyed to the parent that an old man was yelling at me in the skatepark.

I hope Pastor Joe can appreciate my reflection about the complex occasions that naturally unfold from communication by strangers to young people.

Kenneth Warren