The Observation Deck

Will Brown wrote:Why is it that liberals rail about government restrictions, while at the same time advocating government restrictions.

You can't see it, but I'm shaking my head.

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J Hrlec wrote: ... Utopia where 100% of the people automatically do the right thing!

John - Can't a person "set the bar" REALLY high? Your pessimism won't deter me. Please let this child of the 60's/70's cling to his dreams.

Peter Grossetti wrote:

J Hrlec wrote: ... Utopia where 100% of the people automatically do the right thing!

John - Can't a person "set the bar" REALLY high? Your pessimism won't deter me. Please let this child of the 60's/70's cling to his dreams.

I'm not trying to deter you, I'm just saying I believe residents need to mix dreams with a lot of realism. I've seen to many things fail because the "BAR" they are trying to reach is unreasonably unattainable.

All input is appreciated.

J Hrlec wrote:... mix dreams with a lot of realism

John - though my mind's eye may wear rose-colored glasses, I assure you that I wear very good corrective lenses (tri-focals, in fact) on my face!

J Hrlec wrote:unreasonably unattainable

sorry, this just reeks of pessimism.

J Hrlec wrote:All input is appreciated.

YES

Betsy Voinovich wrote:TRUST YOUR RESIDENTS.

Which residents? The ones that want to keep it so they can do yard sales whenever and however they like, or the ones that want to have a weekly sale, or the ones that want to regulate the sales, or the ones that want to get rid of it all together, or the ones that only want to allow them on one weekend a year?

Which residents should the city listen to?

There are many residents all with very different opinions. It is impossible for council to listen to everyone and make everyone happy.



Councilman Anderson, thank you for your very thorough, well thought out and well defended argument. I appreciate your honesty and candor.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Councilman Anderson

As always thank you for reaching out here.

If I may be so bold...

Numbers might be put best per season, per month. I think back to where I needed 5 just
to empty my uncle's house, and think, I would have hated to wait months to do it.

I would rather see the number of sales increase, and keep Sunday off the length of sales.
Call me old fashion, but I believe even if we are not religious we can all use a quiet day.

I applaud you for coming up with an actual time to start and stop, instead of vague
references to the moon or sun and where it is in the sky.

Once again thank you for participating.

I love how Director Butler and Councilman Juris, and others have come on here and made the same points as Councilman Anderson and you all along spouting off how it is a conspiracy to take our rights. Now, as soon as he comes on and tells you the same things you are suddenly not fighting the regulations tooth and nail but instead just suggesting a few changes to maybe better suit the city. I have to say this is the first reasonable reaction you have had yet, and I just think it is ridiculous that you cant give others the same respect and understanding as you do Councilman Anderson.

Christopher Bindel wrote:

I love how Director Butler and Councilman Juris, and others have come on here and made the same points as Councilman Anderson and you all along spouting off how it is a conspiracy to take our rights. Now, as soon as he comes on and tells you the same things you are suddenly not fighting the regulations tooth and nail but instead just suggesting a few changes to maybe better suit the city. I have to say this is the first reasonable reaction you have had yet, and I just think it is ridiculous that you cant give others the same respect and understanding as you do Councilman Anderson.[/quote]

Christopher

Well for one they are not Councilman Juris, who comes in in full attack mode. Kevin Butler
was my councilman for years, I have known his dad for Decades. Councilman Anderson was
my neighbor on damn near three sides of my house, he is in the neighborhood so often it
seems like he is here all the time. He owns the house I grew up in, and the house across
the street from me. We talked for nearly an hour about what he was hoping for from
the committee to study this. HE DOES HIS HOMEWORK.

Get it?

As long as I have known David and Kevin, they have never come at me as Shawn has both
before he was a councilman and since. They have never demanded me to do stupid things,
and if they had, they would have had the nerve to show up.

My history for Shawn is very different. You do not get appointed respect, you can't buy
respect, you cant co-op respect, it does not come from office, respect is earned.

Get it?

As for the vast conspiracy, I believe you and Shawn are the only ones using the term
conspiracy. While I believe the definition of conspiracy is two or more people planning, it
is generally only used by people trying to marginalize a discussion they have no other real
way to attack. Like here.

I am still saying the city does not care about the center of the city.* I am still saying that
it seems to be that the residents are carrying Downtown, instead of Downtown holding
their own, or helping the residents. I do believe that is a path to nowhere. I do believe that
Mayor Summers, Brian Powers, Monique Smith, Shawn juris, and Kevin Butler to a lessor
example believe that it is commercial development that will pull us out instead of the
other way around. In discussion with all, with the possible exception of Brian Powers, who
went out of his way to say numerous times "housing can be viewed as economic
development," believe in commercial economic development.

I have also said, it is their right to believe and do what they see fit.

But lets make sure you understand, you and Shawn are the ones trying to marginalize the
discussion with the term "conspiracy."

Closing our parks early for no reason is taking away our rights. When it is done with not
one moment of real consideration from an elected official, it is more than disappointing.
You are at council, have you asked how much the city is spending on the driveway for
the Park they are closing early? It is a major rebuild for a park that is about to get very
little use from the residents, but a ton of use from the patrons of Quaker Steak. I am sure
you have noticed the money being spent on Kauffman Park, does it not seem od to spend
that money to close it early?

The Draconian laws suggested by Kevin Butler were over the top wrong. Even he admitted
it was to address but a handful of people. Once again residents losing out with not one
suggestion from Kevin on the signs and hours out of control by businesses. Again it seems
to me residents are losing out.

Can the committee straighten them out, and make them right. David Anderson does his
homework, I trust that David will try. I have ZERO trust, or respect for Shawn, he simply
has not proven it to me. If he has proven it to you, then you can go ahead and believe he
does a great job.

* Chris the business district in the center of the city has received millions in subsidies, a
majority of which could have been used for residents. Perhaps you can name the program
that put even half of that amount of OUR money into OUR neighborhoods?


FWIW

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So, a priest, a rabbi and cleric walk into garage sale

Jim,

Let me paraphrase what you just said in your first paragraph there.

"Councilman Anderson is my friend, therefore I will not be combative with him."

I "get it".

Please stop dragging your personal stuff out for everyone to see, much like a "flea-market" yard sale. This business between you and Shawn is YOUR BUSINESS, not everyone else's, so settle it like adults in an appropriate venue and stop throwing it in the middle of this debate. There's even a seperate thread for it, so keep it over there or not on the Deck at all.

Chris-

You bring up a valid point. I think it is important for everyone on the forum to recognize that they are not the only members of the community and that not everyone shares their opinion And perhaps *gasp* there might be people who just really don't care about parks, or garage sales, or whatever other issue we are settling this week and would like to see infrastructure improvements and more high quality businesses in the community.

J Hrlec-

I completely agree with you.

Thealexa Becker wrote:Jim,

Let me paraphrase what you just said in your first paragraph there.

"Councilman Anderson is my friend, therefore I will not be combative with him."

I "get it".

Thealexa

That is not the truth, it is not what I said, no you are flying fast and loose with the truth.

Also I noticed that your mother basically said what I said and what Kevin said. Did you ask
her for proof, or did you take her at her word, based on past history? This is exactly what
I am did here.

Councilman Anderson is a neighbor, and my councilman, we do not hang out, we do not
drink together, I think I have had lunch with him once.

What I do have his a history with him that has proven to me he does his homework.
Shawnv has never shown me the ability to do that. He quotes studies that he has never
been able to produce. Meanwhile David will site the study, send the links, explain what
he has found out, and is anxious to learn more.

That would be the polar opposite to anything Councilman Juris has shown me.

Stephen

Thanks for the smile.

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As I was perusing Craigslist today searching for garage sales to attend, this caught my eye. The posting title was "Lakewood yardsale police." Here is the post:

I wanted to inform people that if you have a sign up that says...free items....yard sale....lost pet it will be taken down. I put up 6 signs for a yard sale, and while my husband was putting them up he noticed a cop taking down the one he put up down the street, he followed the cop and saw him then take down a reward poster for a dog that was on a tree. I called Police Dept and was told, that it is lakewood city ordinance that you cant not have any signs posters up on telephone poles, tree lawns, the side of streets on trees, basically she said the only place you can place signs is in your own yard or a neghbors yard from whom you may get permission from.So basically this police officer spends his mornings everyday taking down harmless pieces of paper instead of checking up on warrants looking out for reckless drivers or cruising around looking for suspicious activity. This is such a waste of tax payer money. And I think most ppl appreciate having signs up to inform them where they are going. I understand this if the signs are up for days, but the sign was up for literraly less then 3 minutes. If the sign is expired thats one thing but....Since the police have so much time on thier hands why dont we send them out to pick up litter off the side of the road, or deliver food to the elderly. Even dog poop patrol would be more useful then this.

Thought it was interesting in light of this discussion.

Grace O'Malley wrote:As I was perusing Craigslist today searching for garage sales to attend, this caught my eye. The posting title was "Lakewood yardsale police." Here is the post:

I wanted to inform people that if you have a sign up that says...free items....yard sale....lost pet it will be taken down. I put up 6 signs for a yard sale, and while my husband was putting them up he noticed a cop taking down the one he put up down the street, he followed the cop and saw him then take down a reward poster for a dog that was on a tree. I called Police Dept and was told, that it is lakewood city ordinance that you cant not have any signs posters up on telephone poles, tree lawns, the side of streets on trees, basically she said the only place you can place signs is in your own yard or a neghbors yard from whom you may get permission from.So basically this police officer spends his mornings everyday taking down harmless pieces of paper instead of checking up on warrants looking out for reckless drivers or cruising around looking for suspicious activity. This is such a waste of tax payer money. And I think most ppl appreciate having signs up to inform them where they are going. I understand this if the signs are up for days, but the sign was up for literraly less then 3 minutes. If the sign is expired thats one thing but....Since the police have so much time on thier hands why dont we send them out to pick up litter off the side of the road, or deliver food to the elderly. Even dog poop patrol would be more useful then this.

Thought it was interesting in light of this discussion.

Hi Grace,

Thanks for posting this. It seems that the City doesn't want us to be able to communicate with each other by putting up fliers on poles. I was thinking that the only reason I knew that some situation was afoot at Grace and Cohasset was because of the fliers residents had posted around those streets. If the Grace/Cohasset neighborhood had a meeting and nobody came, maybe they wouldn't have been able to get Drug Mart to submit new plans that did not include tearing down one of their houses.

Also rough on the people who have lost dogs and cats. But who cares about the people who live here and their pets? They shouldn't have lost them in the first place. Weird how it seems like we're suddenly having every one of our casual freedoms taken.

And yes, some people don't take down their garage sale signs, or lost pet signs. The ADDRESSES and PHONE NUMBERS are on those signs. They can be tracked down and fined if they don't take their signs down. The City could say that: "Take down your signs after your sale, or you find your pet, or you will be fined." But no. Better to take down signs announcing garage sales three minutes after they go up, so nobody will know that there is a sale. Better to just decide it and do it with no input from anybody who pays taxes.

But man it's a beautiful day. If you have to drive up and down every street in Lakewood to see if there is a garage sale, you will at least get a good tour of the city. I would suggest biking.

Betsy Voinovich

For the amount of respect you say you have for Director Butler you were railing against the whole proposal just the same with him as you were Juris. My point was the fact that you were being so close minded to anything but your own way until Anderson suggested he might not agree with you, then you discussed it reasonably giving constructive criticism of the proposed ordinance perhaps helping make it better and be more supportive to more residents. I liked your constructive arguments and thought they were offered well, I just thought it was too bad that you couldn't offer them earlier instead of coming in this thread so hostile.

But apparently I was wrong, as your rants return.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:But lets make sure you understand, you and Shawn are the ones trying to marginalize the
discussion with the term "conspiracy."

Lets make sure we understand that your extreme beliefs and "facts" make them seem lik you are spouting conspiracy because you refuse to back up your "facts"

Jim O'Bryan wrote:It is a major rebuild for a park that is about to get very
little use from the residents, but a ton of use from the patrons of Quaker Steak.

I would like to know where you get this idea that residents are suddenly going to stop using it and that people from QSL are going to start taking it over? I'm sorry, but I highly doubt many, if any people, who are going to QSL are then going to go down to the park. They will probably arrive by car and leave right after there meal, or come by bike or walk, come in the front and leave the front.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:The Draconian laws suggested by Kevin Butler were over the top wrong.

Draconian?! Do you even really know what that means? So you think that we are going to through people in jail with just bread and water if they dont follow these regulations? Or are we going to put them to death? I could not find the what the enforcement of these laws will include, but I can assure you, they will be anything but Draconian.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:* Chris the business district in the center of the city has received millions in subsidies, a
majority of which could have been used for residents. Perhaps you can name the program
that put even half of that amount of OUR money into OUR neighborhoods?

I would like to know what subsidies you say have gone to the business district that could have gone to residents.

Thealexa, AMEN!

FWIW, putting up signs on telephone pole etc. has always been illegal, this is not a new law by any means.

Christopher Bindel wrote:For the amount of respect you say you have for Director Butler you were railing against the whole proposal just the same with him as you were Juris. My point was the fact that you were being so close minded to anything but your own way until Anderson suggested he might not agree with you, then you discussed it reasonably giving constructive criticism of the proposed ordinance perhaps helping make it better and be more supportive to more residents. I liked your constructive arguments and thought they were offered well, I just thought it was too bad that you couldn't offer them earlier instead of coming in this thread so hostile.

Christopher

Thanks for the Bindel rant.

I have two minutes of battery life.

Matt Markling is a friend who I respect, Ed Favre is a friend who I respect, I took both
of them to task with inquiries into Grant School, School Spending, Superintendent searches
Franklin School, dress codes, etc. I pushed hard for what I believed and they pushed back
hard, but none of them as elected officials lowered the bar as Councilman Juris does
everytime he comes to the Deck to take me to task.

As Sonny Barger a great American once said. "Treat me good I will treat you better, treat
me bad I will treat you worse." I am not faulting Councilman Juris for how he feels about
me, that is because of many outside things, but when he is level headed, I try to respond
as such, go back and look at the past 7 years. When he comes in flaming, I suppose that
means he is looking for heat back.

While I hold elected officials and the city to task, I have never worked against a single
business in Lakewood, not one.

FWIW

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Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Christopher Bindel wrote:For the amount of respect you say you have for Director Butler you were railing against the whole proposal just the same with him as you were Juris. My point was the fact that you were being so close minded to anything but your own way until Anderson suggested he might not agree with you, then you discussed it reasonably giving constructive criticism of the proposed ordinance perhaps helping make it better and be more supportive to more residents. I liked your constructive arguments and thought they were offered well, I just thought it was too bad that you couldn't offer them earlier instead of coming in this thread so hostile.

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Matt Markling is a friend who I respect, Ed Favre is a friend who I respect, I took both of them to task with inquiries into Grant School, School Spending, Superintendent searches Franklin School, dress codes, etc. I pushed hard for what I believed and they pushed back hard, but none of them as elected officials lowered the bar as Councilman Juris does every time he comes to the Deck to take me to task.

Jim has taken me to task many, many, many times!

I have always known Jim to be fair if he is treated fairly.

I guess I am surprised that so many of our elected/appointed/anointed officials have such thin skins. It comes with the job, folks.

Matt

I wasn't trying to say you were wrong for questiong/discussing Butlers points, I was just mearly trying to point out the paradox that him and Anderson were saying a lot of the same things and, in your first post following Anderson, you suddenly seemed a lot more submissive to the idea, in an altered form, then you had been when Butler was discussing it. That is all. Not that it matters at this point. I was just trying to clarify, since it didn't seem like you go that from what I said. If you did, my appologies.