The Observation Deck

Freedom of Speech? Maybe we should start charging for it?

The question then would be whether anybody would pay for it.

As hard as it might be, I think that we really need to put the larger questions of how we got into war, or even whether we support the war, aside, if we want to make a better world.

I have VERY strong opinions about this war, but what good would expressing them do now? It's time to roll up our sleeves and help.

The immediate problem is that we need to be there for our soldiers and their families, as well as other victims of war. So many thousands may well bear physical or emotional scars. Back in the Vietnam days, at least soldiers usually did only one tour of duty. These days, a soldier, or even a National Guardsperson can go overseas two, three, or even more times. At times, their tours have been extended. I am certain that they are under a lot of strain.

Add to that, exposure to dust, sun, heat, and all of the little things that can add up to big trouble later on...

There are many things that soldiers need. There are many things that other war victims need too.

People who want to help our troops have a great way to do it. It's through the USO. This group has helped our service people for years. I know of several people who are very involved with helping service personnel in a number of ways.

Please remember, it's so easy to point out problems in this world. It's not always so easy to roll up our sleeves and try to fix them.

I think that there are two things that we can all agree upon. Soldiers are under paid and are often forgotten about after the war.

James Madison wrote:

"Those who are to conduct a war cannot in the nature of things be proper or safe judges whether a war ought to be commenced, continued, or concluded. They are barred from the latter functions by a great principle in free government, analogous to that which separates the sword from the purse, or the power of executing from the power of enacting laws"

This brings up the constitionality of a veto on a measure to bring the troops home. The current administration has not show a willingness to rely on the quaint document but I really question how someone who portrays themselves as a believer in the American system can still support a president who ignores the writings of the founding fathers.

Oh, and by the way Madison was the dude who had his house burned down during a war - the seat of the government was attacked - yet he still believed democracy rested on the will of the people.

David Scott wrote:James Madison wrote:

"Those who are to conduct a war cannot in the nature of things be proper or safe judges whether a war ought to be commenced, continued, or concluded. They are barred from the latter functions by a great principle in free government, analogous to that which separates the sword from the purse, or the power of executing from the power of enacting laws"

This brings up the constitionality of a veto on a measure to bring the troops home. The current administration has not show a willingness to rely on the quaint document but I really question how someone who portrays themselves as a believer in the American system can still support a president who ignores the writings of the founding fathers.

Oh, and by the way Madison was the dude who had his house burned down during a war - the seat of the government was attacked - yet he still believed democracy rested on the will of the people.

Great point! We the People get hosed!

Stephen Eisel wrote: Great point! We the People get hosed!

Actually it is the troops, the people being injured, killed and emotionally damaged for life, including their children who will be scarred from the long separation, even if their parent comes home, and the thousands of Iraqi civilians being killed, and mamed, who will be "hosed".

To add to what Justine just posted.

Some other losses many people don't remember, reservists who keep being sent back have lost jobs, homes and marriages. They didn't sign up for going to war outside the country and there they are, suckin up dust, being shot at and living in a constant state of anxiety, all at temperatures exceeding 110 degrees.

I'm sure there are many more losses that we as outsiders don't ever see.

Shame on us.

Stephen Eisel wrote:

Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:we can sit here and pour our thoughts and feelings into a page long post to prove our thinking to be the most rational, when US troops are dying by the dozens every day. That should be reason enough to pull out. Iraqi forces and government officials are sitting back in their chairs and sipping margaritas as US troops lay their lives on the line. Until we make them do something, we will go nowhere. The ball is in their court.

I can't sit here and think that I have the answer to this mess, and I highly doubt anyone has the answer. We are fighting a faceless enemy, and we are in the middle of a civil war with a whistle and a rule book where there are no time outs and no holds barred.

there's a difference between a war and a civil war. a big difference.

The only time we can make an impact on this is when we vote for our president. I don't think people realized that when they voted Bush back into the oval office for a second strike.

If there were weapons, where are they now? We can't seem to control where our weapons go either, and the people that are supposed to be arming our soldiers were arming the enemy all this time.

Now we're left with uncertainty, and it doesn't matter if there's a republican or democrat in the oval office come next term. Whatever that President is, or whoever he (or she) is, they will not be able to get rid of the horrible stench on our shoes from the pile of crap that this regime has stepped into.

What about the choice of the soldier? If a soldier chooses / volunteers to serve their country with the knowledge that they could lose their life then should we not honor that decision? I have a friend who is currently serving in Iraq. He volunteered to serve in Iraq. Why should your opinion bring him home?

Why should my opinion bring him home? the same reason your opinion is keeping him there.

Justine Cooper wrote:

Stephen Eisel wrote: Great point! We the People get hosed!

Actually it is the troops, the people being injured, killed and emotionally damaged for life, including their children who will be scarred from the long separation, even if their parent comes home, and the thousands of Iraqi civilians being killed, and mamed, who will be "hosed".

The current administration has not show a willingness to rely on the quaint document but I really question how someone who portrays themselves as a believer in the American system can still support a president who ignores the writings of the founding fathers.

Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:

Stephen Eisel wrote:

Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:we can sit here and pour our thoughts and feelings into a page long post to prove our thinking to be the most rational, when US troops are dying by the dozens every day. That should be reason enough to pull out. Iraqi forces and government officials are sitting back in their chairs and sipping margaritas as US troops lay their lives on the line. Until we make them do something, we will go nowhere. The ball is in their court.

I can't sit here and think that I have the answer to this mess, and I highly doubt anyone has the answer. We are fighting a faceless enemy, and we are in the middle of a civil war with a whistle and a rule book where there are no time outs and no holds barred.

there's a difference between a war and a civil war. a big difference.

The only time we can make an impact on this is when we vote for our president. I don't think people realized that when they voted Bush back into the oval office for a second strike.

If there were weapons, where are they now? We can't seem to control where our weapons go either, and the people that are supposed to be arming our soldiers were arming the enemy all this time.

Now we're left with uncertainty, and it doesn't matter if there's a republican or democrat in the oval office come next term. Whatever that President is, or whoever he (or she) is, they will not be able to get rid of the horrible stench on our shoes from the pile of crap that this regime has stepped into.

What about the choice of the soldier? If a soldier chooses / volunteers to serve their country with the knowledge that they could lose their life then should we not honor that decision? I have a friend who is currently serving in Iraq. He volunteered to serve in Iraq. Why should your opinion bring him home?

Why should my opinion bring him home? the same reason your opinion is keeping him there.

It was more of a philosophical question.

Tuesday night I had a great moment which I will share with you.

I stood next to two CPD officers during the national anthem and watched 30 US Army soldiers being sworn in. I took off my hat, paid my respect and walked over to a officer who was watching his soldiers being sworn in.

I said to him:

"sir, I know you hear this often but often isn't enough. God bless you for what you have done and continue to do so that we at home can enjoy our freedoms and go to bed in peace. I am proud of you and admire your courage and devotion to this country."

I admire the choice to serve. I admire the people that are overseas fighting, I just don't admire the politicians and the reasons for being over there.

I'm not saying that my opinion is more important than yours stephen, I'm just going back to my experiences in life and learning from them, shaping a opinion.

You see, when I was born in a civil war and was forced to flee from my country and lose all of my family, my school mates who went through the same thing were watching video tapes of beheaded fathers and being taught to hate anyone of the "other" nationality. Parents would ask family members in the war to video tape the fighting that was going on in their front porch, so that they can show their kids why certain nationalities should be hated.

Now that's not war, that's civil war.

And if you want to continue to let that happen by not making the people of Iraq change (since we're doing all the work for them) then feel free to. That's your choice and your opinion. You just won't have an ounce of credibility or respect coming from me since your opinion is making the children of Iraq suffer the same way my family members did.

Oh, Igor.

This is an example of other things that many of us don't think of when we hear of the atrocities of war.

I often think of the children being raised and dying in this type of hell.

I am so sorry for what you went through and I am so happy that you are here and safe.

Thank you.

I am certain that Sunni children and Shi'ite children are being taught to hate each other by their fathers. In a muslim culture where pride is a big factor, you win when your enemy suffers.

Our soldiers are suffering, too.

I remember watching your favorite TV show, Glenn Beck on CNN and watching a clip of a extremist children's cartoon that is shown country-wide. It shows cartoon characters going into mosques and blowing themselves up. Propaganda beyong belief.

Unless the teachings, customs, beliefs and feelings of hate are changed, we will see no progress in the middle east.

And until we pull out, nothing will change for the better because people will not be forced to change. To them, it is OUR fault that they are suffering and it is OUR fault that there is a war. Until they realize that they're on their own and are the only ones that can determine their quality of life, they will always have us as a scapegoat.

Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:I am certain that Sunni children and Shi'ite children are being taught to hate each other by their fathers. In a muslim culture where pride is a big factor, you win when your enemy suffers.

Our soldiers are suffering, too.

I remember watching your favorite TV show, Glenn Beck on CNN and watching a clip of a extremist children's cartoon that is shown country-wide. It shows cartoon characters going into mosques and blowing themselves up. Propaganda beyong belief.

Unless the teachings, customs, beliefs and feelings of hate are changed, we will see no progress in the middle east.

And until we pull out, nothing will change for the better because people will not be forced to change. To them, it is OUR fault that they are suffering and it is OUR fault that there is a war. Until they realize that they're on their own and are the only ones that can determine their quality of life, they will always have us as a scapegoat.

Ivor, thank you for both of your replies. You bring a fresh perspective to this debate. A first hand experiece that should not be ignored.

I'm not saying that my opinion is more important than yours stephen, I'm just going back to my experiences in life and learning from them, shaping a opinion.

Ivor, your personal experiences out weigh any of the logic or facts presented in this thread. I do not think that you have any hidden agendas or political bias. I trust your opinion. Thanks for enlightening me on this subject. And actually, your opinion is more important than mine. It comes with some first hand knowledge.

Ivor,

As you know, I've had the opportunity to learn quite a bit about you in our discussions with photography and music and written articles.

In addition to your photography, your writing hits home runs outa the park!

I hope that you will pursue writing more. Stephen is right. You bring a fresh perspective to this, as well as other topics, and this is truly a story that needs to be told.

I'm very happy that I know you. You are amazing!

As I have learned myself, sometimes going through a difficult experience and surviving it can help one to help others later.

I think that you helped all of us here.

I know you did.

Keep up the good work!