Heck - This is the most discussed thread, besides the sub-prime loan issue, since the elections.
Does anyone but me seem to think that the elections and the attendant objections to stances and "facts" might have had a lot to do with it?
Rules of Engagement on Deck
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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sharon kinsella
- Posts: 1490
- Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 7:54 am
- Contact:
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Steve Hoffert
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:37 pm
- Location: Lakewood Ohio
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Charyn Compeau
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:11 pm
For what it is worth -
If I were given the choice to erase the past and to see this board moderated, and people sanctioned (for lack of a better term) for posts that could be deemed personal attacks, I would turn it down without a second thought.
All of those experiences taught me a great deal bout this community, about myself, and about communication - both written and spoken. At the end of the day, it enriched my life and I am a stronger person for it.
That being said, I would certainly support the admin if they were to moderate for abusive (I'll kick your !@# or I know where you live type language) or foul language. But other than those scenarios (which are very cut and dry and not what were are alluding to here today) I wouldnt change a thing.
Even more importantly - if you are willing to conduct this 'civic experiment' I believe you should let it play out - i.e. let the experiment run its course - or you might loose valuable bits of information about not only this project, but about the heart of Lakewood itself.
Sincerely,
Charyn
If I were given the choice to erase the past and to see this board moderated, and people sanctioned (for lack of a better term) for posts that could be deemed personal attacks, I would turn it down without a second thought.
All of those experiences taught me a great deal bout this community, about myself, and about communication - both written and spoken. At the end of the day, it enriched my life and I am a stronger person for it.
That being said, I would certainly support the admin if they were to moderate for abusive (I'll kick your !@# or I know where you live type language) or foul language. But other than those scenarios (which are very cut and dry and not what were are alluding to here today) I wouldnt change a thing.
Even more importantly - if you are willing to conduct this 'civic experiment' I believe you should let it play out - i.e. let the experiment run its course - or you might loose valuable bits of information about not only this project, but about the heart of Lakewood itself.
Sincerely,
Charyn
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Gary Rice
- Posts: 1651
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:59 pm
- Location: Lakewood
I have a sneaking suspicion that one day, many of us will look back at many of our old postings here in the same way that we might look at some of the comments in our junior high yearbooks.
With an "EEEEEEUUUUUUUUUU!!!! I wrote THAT?????"
A poem displayed before on the 'Deck, but (I think) appropriate still:
"The Posts at the Bottom"
an opinionated parody...
To "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean"
(Traditional)
1
To the posts that sink down to the bottom,
Of the Old Observation Deck dream,
Unmissed and unloved and outdated.
When remembered, we frequently scream:
Refrain:
"Don't bring back,
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back those old posts to me, to me...
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back those old posts to me!"
2
When we think of page 5, 6, or 7,
Or way back to page thirty-six.
What used to be very important,
Reminds us of petrified sticks!
(To refrain)
3
To posters who live in this City,
Come now, and why can't you see?
Today's posts? Tomorrow's old stories...
Don't bring back the old posts to me!
(to refrain)
...from a (getting older by the minute) banjo picker
With an "EEEEEEUUUUUUUUUU!!!! I wrote THAT?????"
A poem displayed before on the 'Deck, but (I think) appropriate still:
"The Posts at the Bottom"
an opinionated parody...
To "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean"
(Traditional)
1
To the posts that sink down to the bottom,
Of the Old Observation Deck dream,
Unmissed and unloved and outdated.
When remembered, we frequently scream:
Refrain:
"Don't bring back,
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back those old posts to me, to me...
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back,
Don't bring back those old posts to me!"
2
When we think of page 5, 6, or 7,
Or way back to page thirty-six.
What used to be very important,
Reminds us of petrified sticks!
(To refrain)
3
To posters who live in this City,
Come now, and why can't you see?
Today's posts? Tomorrow's old stories...
Don't bring back the old posts to me!
(to refrain)
...from a (getting older by the minute) banjo picker
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John Guscott
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:25 am
- Location: Lakewood OH
I'm for 100% free, unmoderated discussion, as I believe it permits the best possible discussion of ideas.
I come to the LO Deck to read what people know about Lakewood news and for the discussions and ideas people have about the community at large. If there was someone, or some group, muzzling that, in any way, I would find this a less valuable resource.
Criminal behavior such as intimidation, slander, etc. can be dealt with through legal channels that already exist. If a "victim" of a post feels it necessary, they can certainly contact the authorities to further investigate the "crime", or their lawyer to file a civil suit. The "evidence" would be available on the board and easy to discover, if there was indeed a crime or transgression...
However, I do like the idea of adding an ignore button. I doubt I would ever use it, but I can imagine it being a last resort to silence someone who was personally irritating. However, if I were to ever even use it, I'd be tempted to turn it off from time to time, just to see what they were saying!!!
I come to the LO Deck to read what people know about Lakewood news and for the discussions and ideas people have about the community at large. If there was someone, or some group, muzzling that, in any way, I would find this a less valuable resource.
Criminal behavior such as intimidation, slander, etc. can be dealt with through legal channels that already exist. If a "victim" of a post feels it necessary, they can certainly contact the authorities to further investigate the "crime", or their lawyer to file a civil suit. The "evidence" would be available on the board and easy to discover, if there was indeed a crime or transgression...
However, I do like the idea of adding an ignore button. I doubt I would ever use it, but I can imagine it being a last resort to silence someone who was personally irritating. However, if I were to ever even use it, I'd be tempted to turn it off from time to time, just to see what they were saying!!!
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Vince Frantz
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
I am late to this thread. But I have run several message boards and always acted as moderator. Spirited discussion, swearing and strong opinions were fine. But when I felt someone crossed the line with personal attacks or advertising I simply deleted the post. No warning. If they posted something to the effect of "hey.. who deleted my post!" I would delete that as well and then PM them with my reason explicitly citing why it was deleted as "the admin". No one knew who "the admin" was.
The issue was not so much to protect the receiver of the attack. Hell - I agreed with them sometimes. But it was mainly for all the new people that found the site that day. Killing these posts contributed to the growth and health of the board.
If the goal is to become a community resource, then you must kill the things that retard growth. That is - kill the things that turn new and existing users away while keeping the things that users want.
No one wants "censorship" of ideas or opinions. Spirited discussion is what the community wants! But think of the Deck as a garden that needs weeded. I see it more as "editing" for growth. I whole heartedly support killing posts that cross the line in favor of growth.
I never go to the Buzz anymore because of the nickname thing. I have been on the Deck since day 1 and have seen the regular faces change. But we need more faces in here and I don't think some healthy pruning would send too many people packing yet it would certainly help retain the users we have and make it easier for new ones to contribute.
I will add this - not once did I ever receive a message from some user saying "Screw you and this board I am never coming back". Usually it was a quick apology since few saw the post and the exchange afterward was private. We've seen the messages stating "I am leaving the Deck after blah blah". Some early pruning would have stopped any escalation weeks before that point.
The logical end to a raw, unmoderated board is a dead board with 8 people finding stuff to complain about. I don't think the real name thing is enough to stop that. If the manner of pruning tramples someone's toes, then you will hear about it and the board could die from that as well.
The issue was not so much to protect the receiver of the attack. Hell - I agreed with them sometimes. But it was mainly for all the new people that found the site that day. Killing these posts contributed to the growth and health of the board.
If the goal is to become a community resource, then you must kill the things that retard growth. That is - kill the things that turn new and existing users away while keeping the things that users want.
No one wants "censorship" of ideas or opinions. Spirited discussion is what the community wants! But think of the Deck as a garden that needs weeded. I see it more as "editing" for growth. I whole heartedly support killing posts that cross the line in favor of growth.
I never go to the Buzz anymore because of the nickname thing. I have been on the Deck since day 1 and have seen the regular faces change. But we need more faces in here and I don't think some healthy pruning would send too many people packing yet it would certainly help retain the users we have and make it easier for new ones to contribute.
I will add this - not once did I ever receive a message from some user saying "Screw you and this board I am never coming back". Usually it was a quick apology since few saw the post and the exchange afterward was private. We've seen the messages stating "I am leaving the Deck after blah blah". Some early pruning would have stopped any escalation weeks before that point.
The logical end to a raw, unmoderated board is a dead board with 8 people finding stuff to complain about. I don't think the real name thing is enough to stop that. If the manner of pruning tramples someone's toes, then you will hear about it and the board could die from that as well.
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John Guscott
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:25 am
- Location: Lakewood OH
alright, where's that ignore button???
Very interesting points, Vince. I agree with most of your points, but disagree with a few. I don't necessarily think that the end result of unmoderated discussion would be a few lonely voices clashing, or an echo chamber... Could likely happen, but I have been on a number boards in which it hasn't...
However, you bring up an excellent point of new faces on this board, it is true you see many of the same all the time, and others cycling in now and again...
The recent quietness on the board has prob been b/c of the holidays, but notice it has picked up quite a bit recently....
Also, I suspect that there are many more readers than posters... wonder what the lurker/poster ratio is here...
Very interesting points, Vince. I agree with most of your points, but disagree with a few. I don't necessarily think that the end result of unmoderated discussion would be a few lonely voices clashing, or an echo chamber... Could likely happen, but I have been on a number boards in which it hasn't...
However, you bring up an excellent point of new faces on this board, it is true you see many of the same all the time, and others cycling in now and again...
The recent quietness on the board has prob been b/c of the holidays, but notice it has picked up quite a bit recently....
Also, I suspect that there are many more readers than posters... wonder what the lurker/poster ratio is here...
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Vince Frantz
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:03 am
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
John - i realize my post came after yours but you must have posted it while i was typing. I wasn't posting it as a direct reply to yours but I am glad you found it relative!
I also wonder how many lurkers vs posters there are. I doubt there is that many really.
Also - I hope people understand that killing posts and banning users are very different. You aren't silencing someone when you cut their mic for a second 'cause they crossed the line. You have to really go out of your way to get banned from a board when there is good moderation. People assume that things won't get out of hand and that an everything-goes policy would be the best. But the Deck is a product of the LO project. And as a product it can be successful or not. The benefits of the product should be maintained through simple, enforceable policies.
Usually the posts you kill are the ones the poster wished they never made anyway. They flew off the cuff, hit Submit and then an hour later, they can post what they really meant to say. Remember - you CAN post anything you want! If it gets killed it's because of the post - not you personally.
I also wonder how many lurkers vs posters there are. I doubt there is that many really.
Also - I hope people understand that killing posts and banning users are very different. You aren't silencing someone when you cut their mic for a second 'cause they crossed the line. You have to really go out of your way to get banned from a board when there is good moderation. People assume that things won't get out of hand and that an everything-goes policy would be the best. But the Deck is a product of the LO project. And as a product it can be successful or not. The benefits of the product should be maintained through simple, enforceable policies.
Usually the posts you kill are the ones the poster wished they never made anyway. They flew off the cuff, hit Submit and then an hour later, they can post what they really meant to say. Remember - you CAN post anything you want! If it gets killed it's because of the post - not you personally.
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Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Vince Frantz wrote:John - i realize my post came after yours but you must have posted it while i was typing. I wasn't posting it as a direct reply to yours but I am glad you found it relative!
I also wonder how many lurkers vs posters there are. I doubt there is that many really.
Also - I hope people understand that killing posts and banning users are very different. You aren't silencing someone when you cut their mic for a second 'cause they crossed the line. You have to really go out of your way to get banned from a board when there is good moderation. People assume that things won't get out of hand and that an everything-goes policy would be the best. But the Deck is a product of the LO project. And as a product it can be successful or not. The benefits of the product should be maintained through simple, enforceable policies.
Usually the posts you kill are the ones the poster wished they never made anyway. They flew off the cuff, hit Submit and then an hour later, they can post what they really meant to say. Remember - you CAN post anything you want! If it gets killed it's because of the post - not you personally.
Vince
Lurkers out number posters by a large margin. We have always felt the name thing keeps posters down. I know many working in high level jobs that would never post, as the time stamp would show them not working and their words hang in cyber space for ever.
Another thing I have noticed is that surrogates seem to be carrying the load. In other words if some on the deck is speaking what you wanted to say, the thought is let them say it. As that person goes through the emotional high and lows of heated discussions and burn out, they are often replaced by another person with similar views.
Odd? Maybe not?
In life it takes no dedication at all to meet a person, shake hands, introduce yourself, and discuss business, life, whatever. For some reason in the world of cyber space it seems a little harder to get the commitment.
Merely thing we have noticed, what it means who knows?
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Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Sharon,sharon kinsella wrote: Does anyone but me seem to think that the elections and the attendant objections to stances and "facts" might have had a lot to do with it?
I agree with you, I think the acerbic tone in here during the election cycle helped bring this to the forefront.
But I also think it was building before then. There were several times where a topic brought out personal attacks. And I remember one time vividly, where one poster Googled and then posted all kinds of information about another poster....completely inappropriate IMHO.
Vince,
I agree with alot of what you said, but as an admin at another forum, I completely disagree with deletion of posts with no notification to the poster. That's what the Buzz does and I find it absolutely unethical and it smacks of censorship.
It does nothing but leave the original poster with a bad taste and complete bewilderment as to why it was deleted. At my forum we have a very limited set of rules, and we do remove posts that are in violation, or sometimes close threads that devolve into outright personal attacks, but we always message the poster so they know what we did and why we did it. Or to avoid having to close threads a mod may jump into it and just post a "hey, let's cool down guys..." type message.
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
I think this is completely accurate. I know I have, and I'm sure others also, received PMs thanking me or agreeing with my posts from people who haven't posted in a given thread themselves, or even at all on the Deck.Jim O'Bryan wrote: Another thing I have noticed is that surrogates seem to be carrying the load. In other words if some on the deck is speaking what you wanted to say, the thought is let them say it. As that person goes through the emotional high and lows of heated discussions and burn out, they are often replaced by another person with similar views.
Some people just don't feel comfortable posting using their real names for various reasons. Some it's privacy, some it's security, some it's because of the job they hold.
I also agree that during times the Deck gets ugly, I think it does dissuade new people from posting here. If you're coming here and most of what you're reading is fighting, personal attacks, and ugliness, why would you want to join? I think those times tend to be rare, but I'm sure they have an effect if you happen to be a new member here when it's happening.
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Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Bryan
So this begs the question.
How do we get them involved?
How do we make them feel comfortable?
We will never get the person at work who is supposed to be posting and is afraid because of work.
We are not going to get whistle blowers, though I often wonder why, once you decide to blow a whistle, the best place to blow it is in the middle of the town square, at high noon. At least you are then protected.
As we ramp up for 2008 and 2009 are busiest years planned to date(that is right, the rumors of LO going out of business were LIES meant to hurt or destroy this project. Think about it, and why would they do it?).
We need to pull this city together more than ever before. We really need to get everyone pulling and putting up.
How does the LO accomplish this?
.
So this begs the question.
How do we get them involved?
How do we make them feel comfortable?
We will never get the person at work who is supposed to be posting and is afraid because of work.
We are not going to get whistle blowers, though I often wonder why, once you decide to blow a whistle, the best place to blow it is in the middle of the town square, at high noon. At least you are then protected.
As we ramp up for 2008 and 2009 are busiest years planned to date(that is right, the rumors of LO going out of business were LIES meant to hurt or destroy this project. Think about it, and why would they do it?).
We need to pull this city together more than ever before. We really need to get everyone pulling and putting up.
How does the LO accomplish this?
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Bryan Schwegler
- Posts: 963
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:23 pm
- Location: Lakewood
You're right, we will never get full, unrestricted involvement from the people who are in certain jobs or positions....this could be city workers, Lakewood teachers, etc. People that all need to be more careful with their public image because they serve the people of Lakewood.Jim O'Bryan wrote:Bryan
So this begs the question.
How do we get them involved?
How do we make them feel comfortable?
We will never get the person at work who is supposed to be posting and is afraid because of work.
The others...the privacy or security people? I'm not sure, but some general forum behavioral rules would probably help. I'm not talking censorhip, I'm talking restraint on personal attacks and threats.
For example, the time I mentioned above where the poster Googled and then posted all that information about the other poster, including almost what I would consider to be vague threats....that would have scared the crap out of me if I was someone who was afraid of posting online already. And then the fact nothing happened to the poster that did that....would scare me even more. Why would I post where I had to use my real name if that situation is allowed to occur?
As long as you allow unrestricted behavior here regardless of how mean, personal, invasive, or hurtful it is, you will never make those people feel comfortable.
However, that's a choice that the Deck needs to make. Either we regulate certain behaviors or we don't. In either case, some group of people will not be happy or not feel comfortable. You will never make everyone happy. Instead it's a philosophical decision on what you want the Deck environment to be and then be that the best you can. You'll never please everyone.
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Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
Bryan
Which brings us back to imposing the boards hope and dreams for the Deck, which I stress again one small part of the project, and not even the most used. As opposed to the hopes and dreams for it from outside.
In early meetings, we had hoped that names would cure much of it, and in fact, we have never edited a post, I deleted some by mistake. None of them heated nor controversial.
The entire project was created to amplify the artistic, and civic side of this city. To get information on on civic groups, non-profits, and information that allowed everyone to know more about Lakewood than ever before. A seat for everyone at the table, that wanted one. One name, one voice, one vote.
That this was the only way to move the city forward. Not in the way the board had hoped, but in a way that was good for all of Lakewood.
As we crank up in this new year, we will continue to reach out, we will continue to grow, and we will continue to hope.
For those that join in, the board is thankful. For those that lurk, thanks for stopping by, please let us know what you need to jump in.
.
Which brings us back to imposing the boards hope and dreams for the Deck, which I stress again one small part of the project, and not even the most used. As opposed to the hopes and dreams for it from outside.
In early meetings, we had hoped that names would cure much of it, and in fact, we have never edited a post, I deleted some by mistake. None of them heated nor controversial.
The entire project was created to amplify the artistic, and civic side of this city. To get information on on civic groups, non-profits, and information that allowed everyone to know more about Lakewood than ever before. A seat for everyone at the table, that wanted one. One name, one voice, one vote.
That this was the only way to move the city forward. Not in the way the board had hoped, but in a way that was good for all of Lakewood.
As we crank up in this new year, we will continue to reach out, we will continue to grow, and we will continue to hope.
For those that join in, the board is thankful. For those that lurk, thanks for stopping by, please let us know what you need to jump in.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Jill Jusko
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:58 pm
In an earlier post, Mr. O'Bryan said: "One reason I rarely write for the paper is that it would be unfair to use the leverage to get my opinions out over the opinions of others. Ken Warren, Steve Davis and myself lead the group in stories not printed because of space."
My question: If there are completed stories not getting into the paper due to space limitations, couldn't you simply post them on the Website as Web-exclusive stories? One of the upsides of the Web is that space is unlimited. If the follow-up question then is "how do we choose which ones are Web-exclusive only?" I guess the answer is by whatever mechanism you already have established to determine what makes it into the paper. Or you could lead with those written by Mr. Warren, Mr. Davis and Mr. O'Bryan (given that they are already self-selecting for exclusion from the paper).
Just a thought. On the other hand, if it's a question of manpower, given that this is volunteer-run, I quite understand.
You could also plug the Web-exclusive content in the paper.
My question: If there are completed stories not getting into the paper due to space limitations, couldn't you simply post them on the Website as Web-exclusive stories? One of the upsides of the Web is that space is unlimited. If the follow-up question then is "how do we choose which ones are Web-exclusive only?" I guess the answer is by whatever mechanism you already have established to determine what makes it into the paper. Or you could lead with those written by Mr. Warren, Mr. Davis and Mr. O'Bryan (given that they are already self-selecting for exclusion from the paper).
Just a thought. On the other hand, if it's a question of manpower, given that this is volunteer-run, I quite understand.
You could also plug the Web-exclusive content in the paper.