The Observation Deck

Ryan Salo wrote:I love how people that are open minded to all views think they have arrived and everyone else is uneducated.

I didn't say you were uneducated, just uninformed and by your statements on gay people, I still hold to that.

I have done a lot of study on this topic and while you mention there are whole denomination that agree with you, the MAJORITY of churches

And the majority of the churches are having massive attendance problems which is resulting in closings and mergers. The churches believe a lot of things that obviously a large majority of people don't.

and the MAJORITY of the public believes otherwise, just look at the marriage protection laws that have passed overwhelmingly across the country.

This is a false logical statement. A majority of the public does not feel that way. Only a majority of the minority of Americans that actually votes feels that way and that tends to be older Americans.

Actually a majority of Americans polled are supportive of civil unions, equal protection in the workplace etc, and it heads to a very overwhelming percentage of support of those under 30.

Unfortunately for me and fortunately for you, those under 30 don't vote in heavy numbers right now. Another decade (hopefully sooner) from now and I'm better our places have switched.

I was open to a discussion on this topic but when the opposition assumes people are just dumb if they take this stance it is pointless to discuss it any further. I can accept that very intelligent people disagree with me but it seems you cannot think that way.

Again, where did I call you "dumb"? I also never said you weren't intelligent, I'm just saying you're uninformed on this topic. There are some very smart people in this world and not everyone can be an expert on everything.

As for the solution on the marriage issue, it's easy. The government has NO PLACE in the marriage business. The government should not be endorsing a religious ceremony. They should simply have civil unions which are open to any two people to contract between themselves for mutual support. Leave marriage to the churches and take the legal contract stuff out of it.

Bryan,

I just to make sure I have this correct. I am uninformed because I believe the gay lifestyle to be immoral?

historically marriage is a legal convention in which the rules of inheritance, doweries, legitimacy, etc are taken care of.

In most of human history cultures which place the most worry on the chastity of women and the fidelity of wives are the cultures which also have the greatest prevalence of homosexual contact between vigorous heterosexual men. When there is this degree of "choice", it is commonly one of heterosexual men dallying with other men: purely homosexual men rarely touch women. Thus the convention of altar boys in church, cabin boys on sailing ships, the pedarasty of ancient europe. This trend decreased a lot when condoms became cheap and more reliable.

Today a growing trend in suburban highschools is for girls to go lesbian for a while. I only know this because it was in the news. Given the behavior and intelligence of many modern teenage American boys, this is probably a trend most parents should feel good about.

as a political issue gay marriage is mostly a red herring issue. It's something that doesn't affect the way most of us live one way or the other. It's a tool by useless congressmen and pundits to avoid doing something useful, get people wound up and then string along for other unrelated issues.

So far as a parade goes...The Catholics have the St.Patrick day parade. I enjoy the parade, but will never be Catholic or try to be Catholic. There used to be few Catholics in this country, but they started moving in and multiplying like rabbits. If I were forced to critically analyze the Catholic Church I would find a number of grossly immoral and hazardous conventions abounding in it, and campaign for mass conversions of Catholics to Quakers or Mennonites or at least Anglicans. Yet no one does force that question on me or any of us, and churches are an otherwise useful and beneficial social convention so why bother tearing that down? There is no greater portion of gays in America than there were 200 years ago, even though we have more Catholics, Jews, Capitalists, Socialists, and lawyers.

Well, let's see...

How do we arrive at "Kumbayah on this thread?

In the first place Ryan, as one who has gone up against Bryan a few times on various issues, it is my impression that believe it or not, he really does have a heart of gold. Although we have often disagreed, there is a real depth to him that I admire. You have found a worthy adversary.

Now Bryan, I'm sure that you are aware that Ryan's positions are not unique. I feel certain that his views reflect his faith. If you want to change minds and open hearts, however, I think that we'd all be wise to think this conversation through a bit more.

Kudos to both of you for being willing to continue to dialogue. That is a key, I think.

For all of us however, I do think that that for real dialogue to transpire, we need to argue with facts and not emotions; and not with with strong name-calling words or judgmental remarks. After all, in my Bible, and I expect in your own, Jesus commands us "Judge not, lest ye be judged". For Christians at least, it would seem that judgment is not our job-description.

Another quote that comes to mind? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Another: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another"

People have posted some strong stuff here. The trouble with passionate interchange is that it can cause some to retreat back into their own preconceived worlds.

We don't want that to happen do we? We all need to learn about each other.

Now indeed some in the faith community will no doubt cite other scriptural references about judging, and there are indeed some of those that can be found.

For me though, I believe that we have some people on this thread honestly trying to express the core of their beliefs.

Kind of reminds me of that great song by Tom Petty "I won't back down".

Still, I kinda like "Kumbayah" better. I might even get around to playing it if I can get the mote out of my own eye.

Just what is a mote, anyway?

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindeal ... xml&coll=2

I just read this article, and it reminded me of this thread.

Maybe we should have Illegal Alien week? Surely they have contributed significantly to Lakewood, as well. We could pacify the extremists by calling it "Migrant Worker" week or "Undocumented human" week.

Why not Albanian Week? They already have their own special guide to city services.

Why not Lakewood Renter Week? Renters are perhaps the most unfairly bashed and stereotyped group of people in Lakewood (at least on this board).


Doug

Mr Salo,
Please do not forget that people are fighting for your right to call others immoral. They are mired deep in Iraq and Afghanistan. They died in conflicts all over the world too provide you with the ability to state your beliefs. Many of those people were gay, bisexual, white black, moral, immoral. I do hope you see my point. You sir have an extreme lack of respect, and I believe you owe us all an apology. We all live here together.

DougHuntingdon wrote:http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1180859902294500.xml&coll=2

I just read this article, and it reminded me of this thread.

Maybe we should have Illegal Alien week? Surely they have contributed significantly to Lakewood, as well. We could pacify the extremists by calling it "Migrant Worker" week or "Undocumented human" week.

Why not Albanian Week? They already have their own special guide to city services.

Why not Lakewood Renter Week? Renters are perhaps the most unfairly bashed and stereotyped group of people in Lakewood (at least on this board).

Doug

In some regards, why not? What happens when we understand how much of our Ohio vegetable crop is harvested by undocumented aliens?

What happens when we show appreciation for good tenants and landlords?

Joe Whisman wrote:Mr Salo,
Please do not forget that people are fighting for your right to call others immoral. They are mired deep in Iraq and Afghanistan. They died in conflicts all over the world too provide you with the ability to state your beliefs. Many of those people were gay, bisexual, white black, moral, immoral. I do hope you see my point. You sir have an extreme lack of respect, and I believe you owe us all an apology. We all live here together.

Joe,

It is unfortunate that by simply standing up and saying that I think the gay lifestyle is morally wrong you think I owe someone an apology.

I have a lot of respect for people, I have not called anyone any names and I do not judge anyone individually. I appreciate the sacrifice of gay military folks but it doesn't mean I need to remain silent about the movement.

I hope you see my point that if there is anything you see morally wrong that is trying to gain social acceptance you should stand up against the movement, not the individuals. To me it is the same as if a friend of mine is struggling with some sort of addiction that is wrong. I would not judge them I would try to help them, without apology.

"Lakewood Renter Week" is a great idea! We should celebrate the renters and landlords who are law-abiding, productive, valued members of our community.
We should highlight and reward the best property owners, profile tenants who have done outstanding things in the community, have open houses and awards at the good rental properties.
Rentals are an important part of Lakewood, and its a shame that the only ones who get noticed are the bad apples. Good idea, Mr Huntington.

Ryan Salo wrote:I am not going to let immoral lifestyles be accepted by our culture.

I am not going to let anything less than equity for all under the law be accepted by our culture.

Not all faiths teach, believe or practice the same things.

Not everyone follows a particular faith and those non-followers have their own set of beliefs.

This is one reason why it is fundamentally important that there be no official religion and a clear separation between church and state.

This is a difficult road for us to travel together and still show each other respect.

Ryan Salo wrote:I hope you see my point that if there is anything you see morally wrong that is trying to gain social acceptance you should stand up against the movement, not the individuals. To me it is the same as if a friend of mine is struggling with some sort of addiction that is wrong. I would not judge them I would try to help them, without apology.

I do, which is why I am standing against the point of view you are espousing.

I'd love to have a dog parade. But it is too easy to imagine that ending in chaos. Beginning in chaos, and proceeding into greater chaos.

Ryan Salo wrote:Bryan,

I just to make sure I have this correct. I am uninformed because I believe the gay lifestyle to be immoral?

No, you are uninformed because in this very thread you have equated gay pride with the KKK (one is about equality and acceptance and one is for the exclusion and harm of others) and also equated homosexuals with alcoholics, adulterers, and gamblers.

You also claim that becoming gay is a choice, which is refuted 100% by the scientific community. I'm still waiting on the answer to when you chose to be straight and what kind of thought process you went through to reach that decision.

You have also claimed multiple times in this thread that gay people are "destructive" to society. I'm still waiting on an answer as to what that is. If by being in a loving monogamous relationship, working a good job, taking care of my home, paying my taxes, and working through my church to make life a better place for others is destructive, we need more destructive people in this society.

You may claim you've said nothing hurtful, but I would point out you very much have. You are entitled to your moral beliefs all you want just as I believe your thought process in this thread is morally repugnant.

The difference between you and I is that I believe you have a right to be the way you are where you won't allow the same courtesy to me.

Gary Rice wrote:In the first place Ryan, as one who has gone up against Bryan a few times on various issues, it is my impression that believe it or not, he really does have a heart of gold. Although we have often disagreed, there is a real depth to him that I admire. You have found a worthy adversary.

Thank you Gary, I appreciate the sentiments and can pay them right back to you.

Now Bryan, I'm sure that you are aware that Ryan's positions are not unique. I feel certain that his views reflect his faith. If you want to change minds and open hearts, however, I think that we'd all be wise to think this conversation through a bit more.

I completely understand Gary, and it's clear his views do come from his faith. What bothers me is the unfounded attacks he's made on gay people in general in this thread. I'm not really out to change anyone's mind necessarily. As with politics, it's very difficult to change anyones mind on religion and their understanding of morality.

For all of us however, I do think that that for real dialogue to transpire, we need to argue with facts and not emotions; and not with with strong name-calling words or judgmental remarks. After all, in my Bible, and I expect in your own, Jesus commands us "Judge not, lest ye be judged". For Christians at least, it would seem that judgment is not our job-description.

I would very much like that. I'm waiting for the facts in this thread and am waiting for an answer to several questions I've asked a few times. Here is what I'm waiting to learn:

- How are gay people destructive to society?
- When did anyone who is straight "choose" to be straight and what was the thought process that you went through to make that decision?

Another: "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another"

Outstanding quote Gary, one of my favorites. It pretty much sums up my understanding of the New Testament "commandment". Love God and love each other.

There's one more rant left in me, and that has to do with the term "gay lifestyle."

Here's what that means to me:

The "gay lifestyle" may include working hard in school and looking for a good job following graduation.

It may include wanting to find someone to love and spend the rest of your life with.

It may include having or raising children in a loving family.

It may include finding a nice apartment or buying a home and being part of a neighborhood.

It may include the wish to play a part in the community.

It may include regularly worshiping at the church of your choice.

It may include being a loving husband, wife, aunt, uncle, mom, dad, sister, brother, grandparent, etc.

It may include military service.

At the very least, the "gay lifestyle" does not exclude any of the above.