City Charter Change Petition
Moderator: Jim O'Bryan
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stephen davis
- Posts: 600
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:49 pm
- Location: lakewood, ohio
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Ryan Patrick Demro
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:34 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Charter Language
For everyone's reference...
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE FOR THE SUBMISSION TO THE ELECTORATE OF AN AMENDMENT TO THE MUNICIPAL CHARTER RELATIVE TO ARTICLE XXIII, GENERAL PROVISIONS, TO PERMIT EMPLOYEES OF THE LAKEWOOD BOARD OF EDUCATION, RESIDING WITHIN THE CITY OF LAKEWOOD, THE RIGHT TO SEEK PUBLIC OFFICE.
WHEREAS, pursuant to Article XXIII, Section 6 of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood and Article XVIII, Section 9 of the Ohio Constitution, petitions have been presented to Lakewood City Council requesting an amendment to the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood: and,
WHEREAS, Lakewood City Council is required by the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood and the Ohio Constitution to submit the question of whether to amend the charter to the electors and has no discretion to change or otherwise alter the charter amendment presented by petition; and,
WHEREAS, it has been found and determined that the petitions contain a sufficient number of valid signatures;
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF LAKEWOOD, STATE OF OHIO,
Section 1. There shall be submitted to the electors of the City of Lakewood at a municipal election, to be held as provided by law, the question of amending Article XXIII, General Provisions, to permit employees of the Lakewood Board of Education, residing within the City of Lakewood, the right to seek public office within the City of Lakewood.
Section 2. That Section 3., Activity of Officials and Employees Restricted, of Article XXIII. General Provisions of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood be adopted as follows:
ARTICLE XXIII. GENERAL PROVISIONS
SECTION 3. ACTIVITY OF OFFICIALS AND EMPLOYEES RESTRICTED.
The Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments shall not, during their term of office, hold any other public office except that of notary public, Reserve Corps of the United States or member of the State Militia, nor shall they hold public employment with the City. The Mayor, members of Council and directors of departments shall not, during their term of office, be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract with or job, work or service for the City, nor shall the Mayor, members of Council and directors of departments, during their term of office, or any other employee of the City, during their employment by the City, practice law or give legal advice or be associated with another in the practice of law in any matter or controversy in which the City is or may become a party, except on behalf of the City as an officer or employee. This Section shall not prohibit the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City from serving as a member or official of any organization of governments, special unit of government or an organization of governmental officials, whether such organization or special unit of government is organized as a special district, regional council of governments, nonprofit corporation or some other form under the statutes or Constitutions of the State or the federal government. This Section shall not prohibit the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City from serving as a member or an official in any other nonprofit corporation where their service is in the capacity of representing the City. When serving as a member or an official of any organization of governments, special unit of government or an organization of governmental officials, or where the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City’s service are members or officials of a nonprofit corporation permitted by this Section, such persons shall not be deemed to be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract, job, work or service for the City or other transaction because of any contract or other transaction between the City and such organizations, special unit of government or nonprofit corporation; and the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City may fully participate (a) in their respective official capacities in the deliberations by the City or its agencies, and (b) in their capacity as members or officials of such organization of governments, special unit of government, organization of governmental officials or nonprofit corporation, including the right to vote with respect to such contract, job, work, service or other transaction. Any willful violation of this Section shall constitute malfeasance in office, and any such officer or employee found guilty thereof by a court of law shall forfeit his or her office.
Section 3. The ballots for said election shall, at the top thereof, be entitled “Proposed Charter Amendment, City of Lakewood†and the question to be submitted on said ballot shall be in the following words: “Shall Article XXIII, General Provisions, of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood, be amended to permit employees of the Lakewood Board of Education, residing within the City of Lakewood, the right to seek public office.â€Â
Section 4. Notice of the proposed municipal charter amendment may be given by newspaper advertising as is provided by law.
Section 5. The Clerk of Council is directed to certify a copy of this ordinance to the Board of Elections of Cuyahoga County, and to take all further action required by law relative to the submission of said amendment to the electors at said election.
Section 6. That this Ordinance is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the public peace, health, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the City of Lakewood, the immediate emergency being the necessity of forthwith submission of the proposed charter amendment to the electors of the City of Lakewood as provided by law. Therefore, this Ordinance shall be in full force and effect immediately upon its passage.
Section 7. It is found an determined that all formal action of this Council concerning and relating to the passage of this ordinance were adopted in an open meeting of this Council and any of its committees that resulted in such formal actions, were in meetings open to the public, in compliance with all legal requirements.
ORDINANCE NO.
AN ORDINANCE FOR THE SUBMISSION TO THE ELECTORATE OF AN AMENDMENT TO THE MUNICIPAL CHARTER RELATIVE TO ARTICLE XXIII, GENERAL PROVISIONS, TO PERMIT EMPLOYEES OF THE LAKEWOOD BOARD OF EDUCATION, RESIDING WITHIN THE CITY OF LAKEWOOD, THE RIGHT TO SEEK PUBLIC OFFICE.
WHEREAS, pursuant to Article XXIII, Section 6 of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood and Article XVIII, Section 9 of the Ohio Constitution, petitions have been presented to Lakewood City Council requesting an amendment to the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood: and,
WHEREAS, Lakewood City Council is required by the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood and the Ohio Constitution to submit the question of whether to amend the charter to the electors and has no discretion to change or otherwise alter the charter amendment presented by petition; and,
WHEREAS, it has been found and determined that the petitions contain a sufficient number of valid signatures;
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED BY THE COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF LAKEWOOD, STATE OF OHIO,
Section 1. There shall be submitted to the electors of the City of Lakewood at a municipal election, to be held as provided by law, the question of amending Article XXIII, General Provisions, to permit employees of the Lakewood Board of Education, residing within the City of Lakewood, the right to seek public office within the City of Lakewood.
Section 2. That Section 3., Activity of Officials and Employees Restricted, of Article XXIII. General Provisions of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood be adopted as follows:
ARTICLE XXIII. GENERAL PROVISIONS
SECTION 3. ACTIVITY OF OFFICIALS AND EMPLOYEES RESTRICTED.
The Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments shall not, during their term of office, hold any other public office except that of notary public, Reserve Corps of the United States or member of the State Militia, nor shall they hold public employment with the City. The Mayor, members of Council and directors of departments shall not, during their term of office, be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract with or job, work or service for the City, nor shall the Mayor, members of Council and directors of departments, during their term of office, or any other employee of the City, during their employment by the City, practice law or give legal advice or be associated with another in the practice of law in any matter or controversy in which the City is or may become a party, except on behalf of the City as an officer or employee. This Section shall not prohibit the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City from serving as a member or official of any organization of governments, special unit of government or an organization of governmental officials, whether such organization or special unit of government is organized as a special district, regional council of governments, nonprofit corporation or some other form under the statutes or Constitutions of the State or the federal government. This Section shall not prohibit the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City from serving as a member or an official in any other nonprofit corporation where their service is in the capacity of representing the City. When serving as a member or an official of any organization of governments, special unit of government or an organization of governmental officials, or where the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City’s service are members or officials of a nonprofit corporation permitted by this Section, such persons shall not be deemed to be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract, job, work or service for the City or other transaction because of any contract or other transaction between the City and such organizations, special unit of government or nonprofit corporation; and the Mayor, members of Council and the directors of departments and other officials or employees of the City may fully participate (a) in their respective official capacities in the deliberations by the City or its agencies, and (b) in their capacity as members or officials of such organization of governments, special unit of government, organization of governmental officials or nonprofit corporation, including the right to vote with respect to such contract, job, work, service or other transaction. Any willful violation of this Section shall constitute malfeasance in office, and any such officer or employee found guilty thereof by a court of law shall forfeit his or her office.
Section 3. The ballots for said election shall, at the top thereof, be entitled “Proposed Charter Amendment, City of Lakewood†and the question to be submitted on said ballot shall be in the following words: “Shall Article XXIII, General Provisions, of the Second Amended Charter of the City of Lakewood, be amended to permit employees of the Lakewood Board of Education, residing within the City of Lakewood, the right to seek public office.â€Â
Section 4. Notice of the proposed municipal charter amendment may be given by newspaper advertising as is provided by law.
Section 5. The Clerk of Council is directed to certify a copy of this ordinance to the Board of Elections of Cuyahoga County, and to take all further action required by law relative to the submission of said amendment to the electors at said election.
Section 6. That this Ordinance is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the public peace, health, safety, and welfare of the citizens of the City of Lakewood, the immediate emergency being the necessity of forthwith submission of the proposed charter amendment to the electors of the City of Lakewood as provided by law. Therefore, this Ordinance shall be in full force and effect immediately upon its passage.
Section 7. It is found an determined that all formal action of this Council concerning and relating to the passage of this ordinance were adopted in an open meeting of this Council and any of its committees that resulted in such formal actions, were in meetings open to the public, in compliance with all legal requirements.
- Jim O'Bryan
- Posts: 14196
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:12 pm
- Location: Lakewood
- Contact:
From what I hear it is fast tracked to go to the ballot box.
Thanks for stopping by, we all appreciate having council stop in.
.
Thanks for stopping by, we all appreciate having council stop in.
.
Jim O'Bryan
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
Lakewood Resident
"The very act of observing disturbs the system."
Werner Heisenberg
"If anything I've said seems useful to you, I'm glad.
If not, don't worry. Just forget about it."
His Holiness The Dalai Lama
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Ryan Patrick Demro
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:34 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Charter Change Update
City Council will consider this matter at a Special Meeting of City Council on Thursday, March 8th at 6:00pm. Public comment is invited at this time. Please be aware that, as sufficient signatures have been presented, City Council has no authority to alter or amend this ordinance and is required to place it on the ballot.
Steve-- Just a reminder, there is NO RECORD of this issue ever being discussed by any other charter commission except the most recent one. In addition, you failed to mention that Denis Dunn joined me in supporting the effort and Mary Louise Madigan has since changed her position on the issue. Nickie Antonio has also signed on.
Grace-- I assume your comments for me were in jest. Let me share some historical reference for you, as you seem to be taking direction in your thinking from City Council precedent. In 2002, I led an effort to bring non-partisan elections to the City of Lakewood. That issue was opposed by the entire City Council and the Mayor. It was approved by the citizens with 71% of the vote. Fast forward to 2007, more signatures were collected for this issue than the 2002 issue, City Council opposed it. I would bet my life it gets 75-80% of the vote. Also, the non-teaching union rep who opposed the issue at the Council meeting had no intelligible arguments. All he had was a beef with the School Board. When I met with him about this amendment he spent all of the meeting talking about how his union contract was not settled and City Council needed to intervene. I told him that that was not appropriate and ended the meeting. One of my colleagues prompted Mr. Cooper (not an Lwood resident by the way) to come to the meeting and oppose me as a result. He has since been removed and the new union has taken no position on the issue. It should also be noted that Mr. Ken Cooper did not ask his union to take a vote and had no authority to claim such at City Council.
To those of you who like to scheme about my intentions, your inquiries are fair. Let's put it in perspective though:
The Demro Record
1) 2002-- Led effort to create non-partisan elections, approved overwhelmingly by the voters allowing all voters registered as Independents to vote in primary elections for the first time in 50 years.
IT'S ABOUT DEMOCRACY
2) 2006-- Led effort to move public comment to the beginning of City Council meetings to convenience residents and amplify public input, City Council rejected it. Citizens must wait until late into the night to share their concerns, most just give up and leave.
IT'S ABOUT CITIZEN PARTICIPATION
3) 2007-- Led an effort to place charter amendment on the ballot that was rejected by City Council. City Council is overruled by the petitioners (1,207 of them) and the issue goes to the ballot this May.
IT'S ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS
Call it what you will, but the record is clear.
I think it is important to clarify that a conflict of interest can only exist under the law if you can show a direct benefit to the member of City Council. This issue came up at the meeting but was left out of previous posts on this board. How does a teacher benefit, personally, from lowering inspection fees for the school system? Union rules are quite clear about promotion and raises, that is why it is called collective bargaining.
Let's go further and turn the tables though. Check out the employment history of members of Council:
President Bob Seelie: Former employee, Cuyahoga County
V.P.: Mike Dever, Administrator, Cuy. County Engineer's Office
Mary Louise Madigan: Cuy. Cty. Dept. of Human Services
Ed FitzGerald: Former County Prosecutor
All former or current public employees. Now let's identify potential conflicts:
We have contracts with the County Engineer for street reconstruction
We have contracts and grants from Cuy. Cty, Dept of Human Services and ML is Chairwoman of the Health and Human Services Commmittee of City Council.
Anything wrong with that? Do these people profit personally from these activities? There is no evidence that that is the case.
Finally, those of us in the teaching profession do take comments about being unprofessional personally. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of a teacher. My job in teaching, especially in Social Studies, is to present both sides and let students decide where they fall. You can be held professionally liable if you cannot justify your lesson plans. There is established case law surrounding these issues. I would not expect anyone to know it unless they have to live it. If you would like references I would be happy to recommend them. I will continue to encourage everyone to think carefully about this and consider how you would feel if your rights were restricted in this way. It's easy to feel unrestricted if you have never had the desire to make change and the understanding that public policy is an effective way to do it.. So try to think of it from the perspective of those of us who have stepped up to do so.
Steve-- Just a reminder, there is NO RECORD of this issue ever being discussed by any other charter commission except the most recent one. In addition, you failed to mention that Denis Dunn joined me in supporting the effort and Mary Louise Madigan has since changed her position on the issue. Nickie Antonio has also signed on.
Grace-- I assume your comments for me were in jest. Let me share some historical reference for you, as you seem to be taking direction in your thinking from City Council precedent. In 2002, I led an effort to bring non-partisan elections to the City of Lakewood. That issue was opposed by the entire City Council and the Mayor. It was approved by the citizens with 71% of the vote. Fast forward to 2007, more signatures were collected for this issue than the 2002 issue, City Council opposed it. I would bet my life it gets 75-80% of the vote. Also, the non-teaching union rep who opposed the issue at the Council meeting had no intelligible arguments. All he had was a beef with the School Board. When I met with him about this amendment he spent all of the meeting talking about how his union contract was not settled and City Council needed to intervene. I told him that that was not appropriate and ended the meeting. One of my colleagues prompted Mr. Cooper (not an Lwood resident by the way) to come to the meeting and oppose me as a result. He has since been removed and the new union has taken no position on the issue. It should also be noted that Mr. Ken Cooper did not ask his union to take a vote and had no authority to claim such at City Council.
To those of you who like to scheme about my intentions, your inquiries are fair. Let's put it in perspective though:
The Demro Record
1) 2002-- Led effort to create non-partisan elections, approved overwhelmingly by the voters allowing all voters registered as Independents to vote in primary elections for the first time in 50 years.
IT'S ABOUT DEMOCRACY
2) 2006-- Led effort to move public comment to the beginning of City Council meetings to convenience residents and amplify public input, City Council rejected it. Citizens must wait until late into the night to share their concerns, most just give up and leave.
IT'S ABOUT CITIZEN PARTICIPATION
3) 2007-- Led an effort to place charter amendment on the ballot that was rejected by City Council. City Council is overruled by the petitioners (1,207 of them) and the issue goes to the ballot this May.
IT'S ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS
Call it what you will, but the record is clear.
I think it is important to clarify that a conflict of interest can only exist under the law if you can show a direct benefit to the member of City Council. This issue came up at the meeting but was left out of previous posts on this board. How does a teacher benefit, personally, from lowering inspection fees for the school system? Union rules are quite clear about promotion and raises, that is why it is called collective bargaining.
Let's go further and turn the tables though. Check out the employment history of members of Council:
President Bob Seelie: Former employee, Cuyahoga County
V.P.: Mike Dever, Administrator, Cuy. County Engineer's Office
Mary Louise Madigan: Cuy. Cty. Dept. of Human Services
Ed FitzGerald: Former County Prosecutor
All former or current public employees. Now let's identify potential conflicts:
We have contracts with the County Engineer for street reconstruction
We have contracts and grants from Cuy. Cty, Dept of Human Services and ML is Chairwoman of the Health and Human Services Commmittee of City Council.
Anything wrong with that? Do these people profit personally from these activities? There is no evidence that that is the case.
Finally, those of us in the teaching profession do take comments about being unprofessional personally. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of a teacher. My job in teaching, especially in Social Studies, is to present both sides and let students decide where they fall. You can be held professionally liable if you cannot justify your lesson plans. There is established case law surrounding these issues. I would not expect anyone to know it unless they have to live it. If you would like references I would be happy to recommend them. I will continue to encourage everyone to think carefully about this and consider how you would feel if your rights were restricted in this way. It's easy to feel unrestricted if you have never had the desire to make change and the understanding that public policy is an effective way to do it.. So try to think of it from the perspective of those of us who have stepped up to do so.
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Charyn Compeau
- Posts: 324
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:11 pm
Ryan,
I all truthfulness, I doubt that there would be any real conflict that would preclude someone from being able to fulfill the duties of both positions.
My concern, however, is that there would be a public perception of such a conflict.
Even if there is no basis for accusations of favorable or unfavorable treatment of children based upon a parent's political views compared to the representatives, even if there is no basis for a parent to fear speaking to or against a council person, or a council person's ideas, there is still a significant chance that both of these situations might be perceived as a problem by some parents.
When it comes to children, there are people that tend to look for external reasons for their child's woes in school, both academically and behaviorally. And the desire to find such external "causes" can cause some very skewed perceptions and beliefs. Where our children are concerned the emotions run much higher - so I believe this is a bigger issue for school employees than it is for say... a city employee that works in the parks division.
I believe and trust in the teachers as well as the people that devote their time and energies to running for local office; however, we live in a litigious and suspicious society; therefore, I have to note that I am concerned that the potential for divisiveness in this circumstance is high and the potential for a negative impact on our school system is to great.
Can you please speak to these concerns and why you do not feel they merit restricting school employees from sitting on council? And how wold such concerns be addressed if the did become an issue should someone employed by the schools win such a seat.
Kind regards,
Charyn
I all truthfulness, I doubt that there would be any real conflict that would preclude someone from being able to fulfill the duties of both positions.
My concern, however, is that there would be a public perception of such a conflict.
Even if there is no basis for accusations of favorable or unfavorable treatment of children based upon a parent's political views compared to the representatives, even if there is no basis for a parent to fear speaking to or against a council person, or a council person's ideas, there is still a significant chance that both of these situations might be perceived as a problem by some parents.
When it comes to children, there are people that tend to look for external reasons for their child's woes in school, both academically and behaviorally. And the desire to find such external "causes" can cause some very skewed perceptions and beliefs. Where our children are concerned the emotions run much higher - so I believe this is a bigger issue for school employees than it is for say... a city employee that works in the parks division.
I believe and trust in the teachers as well as the people that devote their time and energies to running for local office; however, we live in a litigious and suspicious society; therefore, I have to note that I am concerned that the potential for divisiveness in this circumstance is high and the potential for a negative impact on our school system is to great.
Can you please speak to these concerns and why you do not feel they merit restricting school employees from sitting on council? And how wold such concerns be addressed if the did become an issue should someone employed by the schools win such a seat.
Kind regards,
Charyn
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
As a frequent visitor to council, I am concerned about the characterization that citizens are not being heard.
It is usual that citizens are heard as docket items they wish to address are discussed.
It is also normal for citizens who wish to bring new issues to council to wait until the end of the meeting.
My experience over many years tells me that it's best to address the business on the agenda first and have comments or discussion last.
To be fair, there have been some exceptions, but from the time I first started attending council meetings at least 15 years ago, I have been favorably impressed by the acceptance of citizen input.
It is usual that citizens are heard as docket items they wish to address are discussed.
It is also normal for citizens who wish to bring new issues to council to wait until the end of the meeting.
My experience over many years tells me that it's best to address the business on the agenda first and have comments or discussion last.
To be fair, there have been some exceptions, but from the time I first started attending council meetings at least 15 years ago, I have been favorably impressed by the acceptance of citizen input.
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Lynn Farris
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:24 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
- Contact:
I tremendously appreciate Ryan's efforts to move public comments to the begining.
I know that when issue 47 began the comments were at the begining, but I'm sure as a result of us coming and talking, they moved it to the end, so they wouldn't have to hear it. This is wrong. There are people that come with small children and I know that we have ended up sitting in council meetings past midnight many times. I have seen many people get discouraged and leave.
That may be what some on council want - but it isn't what a democracy needs.
Sure, DL you can sign up to discuss items on the agenda and talk about them at the appropriate times - but often citizens come to address problems that they are facing that can be very real. By moving them to the end - the newspaper (Maybe not Stan, our intrepid reporter) but the others have left so there is less impact and sometimes you do have to wait a very long time which isn't always feasible when you have small children at home.
Thank you Ryan.
I think there is a fair amount of pro and con to the amendment and I got to hear a lot of it, when I was on the Charter Review. On controversial issues like this, let the citizens vote and the majority will rule.
I know that when issue 47 began the comments were at the begining, but I'm sure as a result of us coming and talking, they moved it to the end, so they wouldn't have to hear it. This is wrong. There are people that come with small children and I know that we have ended up sitting in council meetings past midnight many times. I have seen many people get discouraged and leave.
That may be what some on council want - but it isn't what a democracy needs.
Sure, DL you can sign up to discuss items on the agenda and talk about them at the appropriate times - but often citizens come to address problems that they are facing that can be very real. By moving them to the end - the newspaper (Maybe not Stan, our intrepid reporter) but the others have left so there is less impact and sometimes you do have to wait a very long time which isn't always feasible when you have small children at home.
Thank you Ryan.
I think there is a fair amount of pro and con to the amendment and I got to hear a lot of it, when I was on the Charter Review. On controversial issues like this, let the citizens vote and the majority will rule.
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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Jeff Endress
- Posts: 858
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am
- Location: Lakewood
Lynn
Just to be on the cynical side. moving comments to the beginning also allows those interested to say waht's on their mind......then leave. This then allows the remaining business to be conducted without a bunch a prying eyes!
Jeff
Just to be on the cynical side. moving comments to the beginning also allows those interested to say waht's on their mind......then leave. This then allows the remaining business to be conducted without a bunch a prying eyes!
Jeff
To wander this country and this world looking for the best barbecue â€â€
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Citizens go to address council for many reasons.
It is quite rare for there to be issues that draw large groups of people who wish to address council and not all issues are of equal merit.
Lynne- I hear what you're saying and I'd say that if enough people want to yell at council over an issue that perhaps other meetings should be scheduled to focus on particular hot button issues.
I could be incorrect, but if memory serves, the last vote on the skatepark was taken out of docket order due to the huge group of citizens who were interested in that one issue.
I think council president Bob Seelie has tried to be more flexible regarding comments and I think I'd prefer to see flexibility in that area rather than hard and fast rules.
Many council meetings have such a small audience of civilians that you can practically hear crickets.
It's really a shame, because these meetings are very interesting.
It is quite rare for there to be issues that draw large groups of people who wish to address council and not all issues are of equal merit.
Lynne- I hear what you're saying and I'd say that if enough people want to yell at council over an issue that perhaps other meetings should be scheduled to focus on particular hot button issues.
I could be incorrect, but if memory serves, the last vote on the skatepark was taken out of docket order due to the huge group of citizens who were interested in that one issue.
I think council president Bob Seelie has tried to be more flexible regarding comments and I think I'd prefer to see flexibility in that area rather than hard and fast rules.
Many council meetings have such a small audience of civilians that you can practically hear crickets.
It's really a shame, because these meetings are very interesting.
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Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
You are correct, but having the media there was probably a large part of the reason for the move. It also helped to change the majority of the votes.I could be incorrect, but if memory serves, the last vote on the skatepark was taken out of docket order due to the huge group of citizens who were interested in that one issue.
Comments should be moved forward for everyone not just for citizens that are able to garner tons of community support. I feel for the people that come to address an issue that is of great importance to them only to have to sit through a whole council meeting. While many of us find them interesting many people do not. I can't imagine that it would be a large inconvenience for council to let the citizens go first, considering council members are there for the entire meeting. I highly doubt that it would add that many minutes to the meetings either.
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Danielle-
That depends entirely on who shows up to speak and why they are there.
If you spend a lot of time at council meetings, you may develop a different opinion.
I also don't necessarily want to sit through every comment before council gets down to important, "less interesting" issues.
And like Jeff, I hate to think that there are no citizens sitting in watching council at work.
Important decisions are made during boring meetings, like the committee of the whole or budget hearings. These boring meetings are open to the public, but the public usually doesn't show up.
Citizens usually only shows up when something "interesting" happens.
It's a real shame.
That depends entirely on who shows up to speak and why they are there.
If you spend a lot of time at council meetings, you may develop a different opinion.
I also don't necessarily want to sit through every comment before council gets down to important, "less interesting" issues.
And like Jeff, I hate to think that there are no citizens sitting in watching council at work.
Important decisions are made during boring meetings, like the committee of the whole or budget hearings. These boring meetings are open to the public, but the public usually doesn't show up.
Citizens usually only shows up when something "interesting" happens.
It's a real shame.
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Danielle Masters
- Posts: 1139
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: Lakewood, OH
Just for the record I do attend a lot of council meetings. And I don't find them boring at all. I feel like its my civic duty to be involved and to be aware of what is going on in our city. I know many people don't feel that way are discouraged even more by having to sit through the entire meeting. I have seen people just give up and walk out, that is unfortunate and really doesn't help the democratic process.That depends entirely on who shows up to speak and why they are there.
If you spend a lot of time at council meetings, you may develop a different opinion.
I also don't necessarily want to sit through every comment before council gets down to important, "less interesting" issues.
And like Jeff, I hate to think that there are no citizens sitting in watching council at work.
Important decisions are made during boring meetings, like the committee of the whole or budget hearings. These boring meetings are open to the public, but the public usually doesn't show up.
Citizens usually only shows up when something "interesting" happens.
It's a real shame.
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
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Lynn Farris
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:24 pm
- Location: Lakewood, Ohio
- Contact:
Jeff, I could not agree with you more. I have been a big advocate of televising council meetings so that everyone that wants to be a part can participate, people who work that night can even record it and watch it later. Senior citizens on cold nights don't have to risk coming out. People with babies can stay home. Parents with school age children can stay home and check the school work. It is amazing how few people have the luxury of being able to come to council meetings and when they do - they should be respected. Yes, yes, I have heard that some council people may play to the TV. To be quite honest, maybe they would or maybe they would work harder to meet their constituents needs.
I sat in every council meeting for approximately 2 years and I almost always stayed to the end. I was horrified at how council walked out when people were talking, played with their mics and played with what must have been some kind of video game or blackberry device. I was horrified at the total disrespect shown to our citizens - for the most part. Many people are totally intimidated by the council - which is how some of them seem to like it. Our city and our council should show RESPECT to the citizens who elected them and who are in effect their employers.
I would not make my boss wait hours to hear what the problem was while I conducted in many cases mundane but important business. I would listen to him/her first, figure out how best to help them and then complete the rest of my work.
With all that being said, I am very impressed with several people on the new council who do get it and seem to understand that this is one of the few forms where citizens have a right to be heard. That is why I thanked Ryan and I don't think he is alone. I think we have several other council people who respect the citizens they were elected to represent.
Additionally, I was extremely impressed by State Senator Tim Grendell and the way he made sure that every citizen that wanted to be heard in testimony at the state level was heard. The senators and representatives on his panel listened, took notes and asked questions. We need to incorporate that in our council meetins.
JMHO
I sat in every council meeting for approximately 2 years and I almost always stayed to the end. I was horrified at how council walked out when people were talking, played with their mics and played with what must have been some kind of video game or blackberry device. I was horrified at the total disrespect shown to our citizens - for the most part. Many people are totally intimidated by the council - which is how some of them seem to like it. Our city and our council should show RESPECT to the citizens who elected them and who are in effect their employers.
I would not make my boss wait hours to hear what the problem was while I conducted in many cases mundane but important business. I would listen to him/her first, figure out how best to help them and then complete the rest of my work.
With all that being said, I am very impressed with several people on the new council who do get it and seem to understand that this is one of the few forms where citizens have a right to be heard. That is why I thanked Ryan and I don't think he is alone. I think we have several other council people who respect the citizens they were elected to represent.
Additionally, I was extremely impressed by State Senator Tim Grendell and the way he made sure that every citizen that wanted to be heard in testimony at the state level was heard. The senators and representatives on his panel listened, took notes and asked questions. We need to incorporate that in our council meetins.
JMHO
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." ~ George Carlin
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dl meckes
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:29 pm
- Location: Lakewood
Lynn-
One of the points I hear you and perhaps Danielle make is that when there are issues that attract a lot of citizen interest, the comment portion available to citizens at council is insufficient.
In some cases, there isn't enough time to have the public hearings that are necessary to air citizens' concerns and hold a council meeting on the same night. I think citizens are shortchanged in many circumstances.
I don't know if there is a mechanism in place to call public hearings that require council to attend. Should there be? What would trigger that?
One of the points I hear you and perhaps Danielle make is that when there are issues that attract a lot of citizen interest, the comment portion available to citizens at council is insufficient.
In some cases, there isn't enough time to have the public hearings that are necessary to air citizens' concerns and hold a council meeting on the same night. I think citizens are shortchanged in many circumstances.
I don't know if there is a mechanism in place to call public hearings that require council to attend. Should there be? What would trigger that?