Does anyone have any insight?

[Jim O'Bryan]

Chris

Please, do not get me wrong.

I should follow what the hen people are doing? Hardly it would seem they are moving away
from their goal daily.

I should do what the Dog Park People did? Why the hours were legal, it was through pure
laziness, on the part of Beno and Council that allowed these new hours to happen, not to
mention, they have zero reasons to take away residents freedoms and park usage. This
has very little to do with the Dog Park.

Chris/Thealexa, why do law abidding risdents have to justify or come up with anything on
this. They are taken away our rights as residents, we are not asking for something new.
Your reasoning is misguided and should be directed at them. They should be forced to
justify why they are taking away our rights. Not being able to do my job is not justification,
it is laziness, that now trickles down to the resident and voter.

"A small corner of people," I guess you do not get the calls and responses behind the
screen that I do.

Again, I am hoping that common sense will prevail. There has been ZERO indication from
6 members of council that even though they have second doubts, and were amazed to see
that Lakewood Trucks are outside of Lakewood, wasting Lakewood dollars and cents not to
mention, labor hours, that could be used to keep park clean, and was hoping instead of
blowing this up as large as it could be with the misappropriation of funds and labor to a
simple little oooppps we made a story.

What I am fin ding amusing is how many people try to justify the theft of services from
Lakewood residents for any number of reasons.

I appreciate your guidance in this, but I think I have been dealing with these people longer
than you and have accomplished a couple things, though nothing to the level of perhaps
you, the hen people or others. But we each have our own style I suppose.

In the coming elections I feel it is important for people to look at who said times are tough
while spending millions on dyed red concrete. That it will be a voting issue on who sided
with drive-thrus on side streets, and the constant invasion of residential areas for brand
builders like Value World, Drug Mart, Family Dollar.

For far too long we have bought the hype of high end, special, cool, only to have our
leaders come up dreadfully short again and again. Time for Lakewoodites to get proper
respect from the people we elected. To make it your agenda to close a park without ever
going into it while asked to borders on insanity, and reckless abuse of power.

FWIW



.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Matt

I agree, it is one thing for groups to solicit the government to make laws.

It is another thing when the government changes laws with soliciting input from the citizens.

As for the yard signs, yet another bullying tactic by City Hall. Let anyone put up all the signs
they want if they are a business. HELL let them break the existing laws saying we just do
not have the time to enforce them. Then turn the wrath yet once again on the residents.

So the city can have city wide sanctioned Yard Sales, but residents NO WAY!

Lakewood that cared about residents first and foremost has now turned it backs repeatedly
on us. It is like living in a strange strange land.

[Christopher Bindel]

I should do what the Dog Park People did? Why the hours were legal, it was through pure
laziness, on the part of Beno and Council that allowed these new hours to happen, not to
mention, they have zero reasons to take away residents freedoms and park usage. This
has very little to do with the Dog Park.

I was merely trying to reference their civic activism, working towards changing something rather then just complaining about it. Not necessarily the specific topics of dogs or hens.

Ben and Council may have been lazy or may have made an uninformed decision, and if that's what you think happen you have every right to be upset, however I would be careful to say they took away your freedom. They are not invading your privacy or taking away your rights rather limiting your access to their property. It is city property which you are able to access, the same as you might let someone walk on your yard or into your home. If you want to restrict that you can. Yes I understand that we pay taxes to help maintain the park, however the city still holds ownership and if you are not happy with how they are maintaining it there are ways to raise your issues with them.

Chris/Thealexa, why do law abidding risdents have to justify or come up with anything on
this. They are taken away our rights as residents, we are not asking for something new.
Your reasoning is misguided and should be directed at them. They should be forced to
justify why they are taking away our rights. Not being able to do my job is not justification,
it is laziness, that now trickles down to the resident and voter.

Once again I would not say they are taking away your rights, that is a bit mellow dramatic and I would say inaccurate. You are right, law abiding citizens should not have to explain why they should be given access to the parks, the problem is the difference between a law abiding citizen and a criminal is not something discernible by the eye, despite what some might think.

Perhaps Council should explain why they made their decision, but I some how don't think it would be to your satisfaction, however that does not mean it wouldn't be to others. Maybe they did make a wrong decision, maybe they are being lazy, and that's not right. I was not saying you shouldn't be upset about that and talk at length about it. I was saying keep the facts, facts and the opinions, opinions. The fact is it has passed and you are not going to reverse it without another act of council, or a referendum by the people. As the first is easier and more likely, that Is why I made the suggestion of getting people together to make their case.

"A small corner of people," I guess you do not get the calls and responses behind the
screen that I do.

Have these people also tried calling the Mayor, Public Works Department and several Council people to let there positions be known? Have they organized or petitioned? Complaints alone do nothing. If you are unhappy, show it, but also do something about it.

I appreciate your guidance in this, but I think I have been dealing with these people longer
than you and have accomplished a couple things, though nothing to the level of perhaps
you, the hen people or others. But we each have our own style I suppose.

Thanks for the underhanded insult, its always a good sign of hitting a nerve. Perhaps I my self have not been apart of the grand things you have, however I'm sure I have been to just a few more Council meeting then you have and may perhaps have a decent understanding of how they work. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember ever hearing of you having any connection to any legislation that has ever passed. Or having any influence in City Hall for that matter, despite your hopes and attempts to become mayor.

In the coming elections I feel it is important for people to look at who said times are tough
while spending millions on dyed red concrete. That it will be a voting issue on who sided
with drive-thrus on side streets, and the constant invasion of residential areas for brand
builders like Value World, Drug Mart, Family Dollar.

There is so much wrong with this that I am not even going to touch it because it is a whole discussion in of its self.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Chris

I am more than willing to sit down with you and anyone on this.

Some things I am not understanding from you. Why are you set on apologizing for them? OR
letting them slide is a terrible lazy, ill thought our decision?

Director Beno, who I actually like, mad a very bad decision, based on nothing. Council
followed in doing so took away our right to assemble in Kauffman and Madison Park. There
is no reason to tone any of this down. That is what happened, on their watch. I am not even
talking about the bad PR, the messages it is sending, etc.. The fact is Director Beno said
they must close because of loitering!!!! and graffiti. Loitering in a park is laughable, the
graffiti is a non-issue as in 6 months nothing more.

The calls I am talking about are not from residents, but civic leaders, politicians, workers at
City Hall, etc. EVERYONE THERE knows it was a bad decision, but no one is willing to break
ranks and ask for it to be reopened, because what that could look like. So Lakewood
residents lose again because of lack of integrity on the people we elected? Really? Chris
you have to admit it was a poorly thought out decision.

It seems that if it is for business, or photo op it happens. If it hurts the residents there is
little care or thought except, they'll take it. It is old, and I promise it will be revisited come
election time. Maybe you do not get around as much as I, but the residents of this city are
really getting tired of being kept out of the loop, crappy surprises sprung on them, while
their neighborhoods and rights(things they were allowed to do when they moved here)
being taken from them.

It is really beginning to sink in, this city is not the city they moved to or grew up in. Not
because of some outside forces, but because the very small mindset of a few.


.

[Christopher Bindel]

Some things I am not understanding from you. Why are you set on apologizing for them? OR
letting them slide is a terrible lazy, ill thought our decision?

I'm not trying to apologize for them, I just am not so sure I see it your way. I don't think they should have passed the ordinance but that does not mean that they did not make what they believed to be informed decisions at the time. It could have been based off of bad information or a number of other things. If what you are saying is true, then yes I am a little disappointed, but personally this is not the most important issue to me. That is not to say it isn't worth fighting for. If you believe it is wrong then fight for it. It is your right to disagree and speak your mind on your opinions as long as you cite them as such. I only ask you be accurate and respectful.

Director Beno, who I actually like, mad a very bad decision, based on nothing. Council
followed in doing so took away our right to assemble in Kauffman and Madison Park. There
is no reason to tone any of this down. That is what happened, on their watch. I am not even
talking about the bad PR, the messages it is sending, etc.. The fact is Director Beno said
they must close because of loitering!!!! and graffiti. Loitering in a park is laughable, the
graffiti is a non-issue as in 6 months nothing more.

This is very well stated. I will not say I'm on board with the sentiment 100%, but I agree with part of it and like that it is more to the point. I also agree the idea of saying that loitering in parks is a problem is laughable. Around the time this happened not only was Beno saying there was an issue with loitering in the parks but Councilwoman Smith also cited that as part of her reasoning to ban smoking from the parks. It is ridiculous. In principal, parks are meant to be loitered in.

The calls I am talking about are not from residents, but civic leaders, politicians, workers at
City Hall, etc. EVERYONE THERE knows it was a bad decision, but no one is willing to break
ranks and ask for it to be reopened, because what that could look like. So Lakewood
residents lose again because of lack of integrity on the people we elected? Really? Chris
you have to admit it was a poorly thought out decision.

If those are the people that are calling you to complain about this decision then they should know better. If they want it changed they need to be a part of it. If they are not willing to come forward then nothing can be done and they cant really complain.

I some how doubt that everyone there thinks it was a wrong decision. For one I doubt you have spoken to every city employee, second it never would have come forward if no one thought it was a good idea. I somehow doubt this was Beno's idea alone. Someone below him probably complained about graffiti issues and he formed this plan as a solution. Might be an ill-fitted solution, but there you have it.

Though I do not agree with the decision, and disagree with their conclusions, I am not willing to say, without a doubt, it was a poorly thought decision. I can see where your coming from and say it is possible that they could have done more, but that still does not mean that they would have come to the same conclusion or agreed with us. See the problem is, despite the information, it comes down to ones opinion. We may disagree with them, but that does not necessarily make them wrong.

It seems that if it is for business, or photo op it happens. If it hurts the residents there is
little care or thought except, they'll take it. It is old, and I promise it will be revisited come
election time. Maybe you do not get around as much as I, but the residents of this city are
really getting tired of being kept out of the loop, crappy surprises sprung on them, while
their neighborhoods and rights(things they were allowed to do when they moved here)
being taken from them.

Anyone who thinks that the city is creeping around or trying to hide things just isn't paying attention. The parks legislation was discussed over 3 Council meeting starting February 6th and was passed March 5th. In that time frame it was covered by 3 media out lets, here on the deck and posted in the council agendas on onelakewood.com, and you know what, no one came to speak against it. I can not remember a single person coming to the meetings to speak against the parks closing early. Its not like the information wasn't available. If you felt so strongly why didn't you come speak your mind to the Council body? Why did you not try to convince others to do the same. You can not assume that because you think a certain way others will. Perhaps by sharing your views beforehand you could have prevented it from passing.

If people want to know whats going on they have to take the time to find out. It is not the city's job to track every citizen down to tell them of every change. Citizens need to be active and engaged. You are right though, election time is the time fore this, and all decisions done by our elected officials to be revisited. That is the time fore the residents to make their decisions whether they agree with them or not. We will have to wait until then to see what happens.

All I have to say is Mayor Summers, Director Siley (Panning and Development) and Director Butler (Law) have all always been incredibly honest and forthcoming any time I have ever talked to them. They are willing to answer any question you have, but you have to ask.

It is really beginning to sink in, this city is not the city they moved to or grew up in. Not
because of some outside forces, but because the very small mindset of a few.

You know, your right, this isn't the city I grew up in. Its better! There is so much good going on in this city. So much community activism, business corridor revitalization, open and respectable government, great things happening for the young to old and poor to middle income. There is so much room to grow here and Lakewood is growing.

[Jim O'Bryan]

You know, your right, this isn't the city I grew up in. Its better! There is so much good going on in this city. So much community activism, business corridor revitalization, open and respectable government, great things happening for the young to old and poor to middle income. There is so much room to grow here and Lakewood is growing.

Chris

Yeah I know, the future is so bright you have to wear shades.

Said the blind man, who picked up his hammer and saw.



I do admit at times they try in a thankless job.

.

[Christopher Bindel]

I do admit at times they try in a thankless job.

Amen!

[Thealexa Becker]

Jim,

I think you mistakenly assume that you understand my reasoning behind questioning your "facts" (I use quotations because I have not seen your data and I have to just trust you that your numbers and statements are accurate...I believe it is called trust but verify).

I agree with Chris, Council should explain their reasoning. This is fair. They should be held accountable to questions from constituents and perhaps discuss this formally if enough complaints from the community are made.

However, Jim, I am trying to hold everyone accountable when they present facts and sides to this issue. It is my belief that you should question what "facts" people tell you. And just because you have the tendency to parrot similar philosophies about "questioning everything" does not make you immune from someone vetting your statements or challenging your point of view.

Now, surely you will come up with some quip about my age, ignorance, education, etc to try and discredit or diminish my argument and make it seem that I have been "snowed in". You are entitled to that as much as I am entitled to say that I think you have a flair for drama and that there are greater problems in the city and in the world than what times the parks close.

That is not to say that people should not be upset about the parks if this issue really bothers them. But everything in moderation.

[Peter Grossetti]

there are greater problems in the city and in the world than what times the parks close.

Thealexa - I don't believe this thread is really about what time parks close, but rather the process in which council decided to close them early. I've said it a gazillion times: The "issue at hand" (or as you say: "problem") is more than likely a manifestation of a deeper ill.

[Grace O'Malley]

there are greater problems in the city and in the world than what times the parks close.

Good point, Thealexa (Love your name, BTW

Why then, did council choose to take it upon themselves to close the parks early when there are far more serious and pressing issues?

[marklingm]

Since everyone in City Hall probably has a photograph of President John F. Kennedy hanging in their offices/cubicles/homes, I would respectfully ask our elected/anointed/appointed leaders in City Hall to take the time to listen to President Kennedy’s unedited speech below, please.

President Kennedy's words should speak to all of you in City Hall. And you too, Jimmy.

Are any of you listening?





Matt

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim,

I think you mistakenly assume that you understand my reasoning behind questioning your "facts" (I use quotations because I have not seen your data and I have to just trust you that your numbers and statements are accurate...I believe it is called trust but verify).

Thealexa

I always appreciate your input, you know this is true. With that said, life is not always facts
matter of fact you should have been at the media panel discussion where two thirds of the
panel argued there are no real facts, just facts as they apply to you. As odd as it seems, I
was the one arguing there are real facts, application may differ, but facts do exist. With that
said, I paid for one of my homes taking facts for BP America, and figuring out how to best
present them graphically for them to prove their point, no matter how wrong that point was.

I do not live in a vacuum. The amount of calls and conversations I have with everyone
from the homeless to the mayor, governors, senators, retired politicians, college
City Hall have been afraid of speaking out for well as long as I known. Police will tell you
something far different off the record than on it. Council members when talking while
walking or drinking will often give you a far different look at what is going on then if they
are asked at the end of a council meeting, or if they think it will appear somewhere.

So when it comes to issues like this it gets tough. As I have stated before, the only facts I
know in this case is that Joe Beno director of public works, told council they could no
longer keep up with the graffiti in Kauffman Park and Madison Park. Council was told this
while Joe, who is a good guy, knew his staff was spending time out of the city helping lets
say "a resident" that Joe new with lets say "recycling." So the obvious answer to the parks
at that time, was if you let your staff work in Lakewood on what they are supposed to,
then MAYBE there would be time to keep our parks clean. Silly idea? I think not.

Then you have the safety committee that ruled on Joe's Suggestion. In a vote of 2 to 1,
it was decided that the parks should close. Fact, the two that voted to close, never gave it
a second thought, they went with Joe's decision. Never even bothered to ask, is there
anything that might give you more time to do this? Never talked with anyone about is
it possible to get help in the park? Could the judge give them prisoners to clean the parks.
NO the representative of the people, said, close them. ZERO reasoning. I take that back
it was pointed out to them that empty streets and parks and inherently less safe than
used facilities. That the best way to make Kauffman and Madison clean and safe is to
increase usage. PROOF, many papers written on it, but years ago we (Ken and I) had
heard about tough kids at Kauffman and Madison. At Kauffman we found the kids, and
watched them and talked with them. They were not bad kids, actually they picked up liter
and were just looking for a place to get away from bad kids, and had found Kauffman Park
to be perfect. http://www.lakewoodobserver.com/read/2005/11/16/swat-team-deployed-at-kaufmann-park

In Madison Park we found "bad kids" real punks. So we sat there and constantly tried
talking to them, and "hanging out in their space," and like magic, they disappeared. Punks
and criminals hate nosy people that are willing to engage. These are "facts"

So then it went to council, which rubber stamped it, as is often the case, as they are
overworked under paid and some just tired.

The entire law borders on insanity. You take two parks that have night activities and close
them and an "undetermined time dusk" and then write a law, that is basically unforceable
and will surely see Lakewood in court with one of many letters saying "Well we are not
going to enforce it with you, but you know, those people we will arrest." What? The city is
sitting in a nightmare of a lawsuit over the term "those people." Is nothing every learned?

So the law is passed taking away the rights of every law abiding citizen in Lakewood.
Another attack from city hall on the residents, no different from the drive-thrus in
residential neighborhoods, no different from the no loitering signs in front of the Root, no
different from making us carry garbage to the curb with no real savings or benefits. So
one has to think why, and if you look at the body of work by this council, you would see
business is getting all the pluses while the residents get zip.

So once again without emotion.

Parks closed by one person not wanting to do his job, would rather help others
outside the city on city time.

City Hall takes away our rights to use park with no facts or studies.

No graffiti added to Kauffman Park in 6 months.

One council person David Anderson begged for studies, more time to study, and a better
way. The rest, it would seem they could care less about the residents or the services the
city is suppose to have for us all to enjoy.

I would also like to point out one more thing I have seen. While this seems about the parks,
the hours, or the process, what it does is give us insight into everything council does.
If they are so willing to cut park hours with no real input or study, what other corners
have they cut? Did they even do the study on traffic Councilman Juris said they did but
never presented to anyone? Did they analyze the cost of the new poles, new die cut signs, and the confusion over the new traffic patterns, or did they just guess, or go along with
a friend? How did we end up spending millions that could have been used by homeowners
and residents for fixing up downtown to become the miracle .8ths of mile Dollar Lane?
How does what we learned here figure into hoops, chickens, bike lanes, everything!

Look at the scope of the issues not merely the focal point, and it becomes very disturbing.

.

[J Hrlec]

there are greater problems in the city and in the world than what times the parks close.

Good point, Thealexa (Love your name, BTW

Why then, did council choose to take it upon themselves to close the parks early when there are far more serious and pressing issues?

Good point.

Although, I do believe that council can multitask (oh boy can't wait for the comments on this one heh) and do more than one thing at a time.

I can't speak for Thealexa, but i was assuming her statement was more about how residents seem to be up in arms and more vocal on this topic than some of the more urgent ones which exist.

[Jim O'Bryan]

there are greater problems in the city and in the world than what times the parks close.

Good point, Thealexa (Love your name, BTW

Why then, did council choose to take it upon themselves to close the parks early when there are far more serious and pressing issues?

Good point.

Although, I do believe that council can multitask (oh boy can't wait for the comments on this one heh) and do more than one thing at a time.

I can't speak for Thealexa, but i was assuming her statement was more about how residents seem to be up in arms and more vocal on this topic than some of the more urgent ones which exist.

J Hrelc

Of course they can multi-task, they are not idiots, just human.

I want to point out for years I have thought council dreadfully underpaid, the mayor should
also be paid more.

I would opt for a system that says give council $100,000 a year so they can buy staff,
more staff than Mary Hagan who is good by overworked. Perhaps the staff could have at
least gone to the parks or checked the concept of busy places are safe places.

FWIW


.

[Peter Grossetti]

two questions:

1.) since our council may be "overworked, under paid, and some just tired" -- is it time to consider a different model? full-time professional council? perhaps in conjunction with a city executive? (I'll bet this is not the first time this has been brought up on The Deck!!!!)

2.) was this really Director Beno's initiative or was he merely a puppet at the end of the PuppetMaster's strings or a mouthpiece sounding off for some predisposed agenda?