Senate Bill 5

[Roy Pitchford]

I'll be at The Root at 11 on Saturday. If anyone would like to come and talk about this in person, I'd love the opportunity to continue our community's conversation about teaching and learning. While I appreciate the deck, I also appreciate the opportunity to hang out with my neighbors. I hope to see you there.

Wish I could be there, but people thirst for knowledge, so they come to me for it. I'll be on the job on Saturday until 6.
You've been quite gracious in this discussion and I look forward to meeting you and others from the board sometime in the future. I've only had the chance to meet 2 of you so far, Stan and Charlie Page.

[Ellen Cormier]

I appriciate everyone who has contributed to this discussion. I read through the whole thing and some great points were covered. I am a lakewood parent and I am strongly against this bill. I do work in education (early childhood) and am non-union so I can definitely speak about what you get if there is no union in an educational environment! We get some decent benefits and some job protection but my salary is quite low for someone with a 4 year degree and pushing 20 years experience. I never thought I would be making so little at this point in my career. That said I do love my job but it is quite rough to make ends meet as I am currently the only adult employed in the household. Which brings me to an important point, so many men have lost jobs in this recession and now they are attacking the stable, women's professions and that is what I find incidious about SB5. Women are now the main breadwinners in over 50% of the households. Cutting teacher pay is only going to push families into food stamps and other government assistance programs. There are so many things I want to say about what I think this SB5 bill means I don't even know where to start!

I am definitely going to try to come to the root on Saturday. I know Mr. Wheeler and I have tremendous respect for the things he is trying to do for this school district. It is fabulous and we need to clone him! So, thank you Mr. Wheeler for doing what you are doing. I want to do all I can to support our teachers and fight this bad bill.

Another point I haven't seen mentioned is the threat to stability that not having a union will cause. We haven't had many strikes in these parts because the unions and administraitons have done a good job negotiating. Teachers have given up a lot, fewer raises, paying more for benefits, what more can they give up? At some point this really becomes a quality of life issue. When you don't have enough money to pay your way in the world, life becomes very stressful and you are not able to focus on your job anymore. We don't need a revolving door of inexperienced teachers either. Teachers need to learn from each other, underperforming teachers can be made better. This is a huge profession and people are not easily replaced in this field. There is no stock of fabulous teachers waiting in the wings. A few maybe, but that stock of underemployed teachers are probably untested in the field and will encounter the same batch of problems the experienced teachers face.

[Ellen Cormier]

One point about the charter school craze, while the movement has some merit I do believe it has been an underhanded attempt to get rid of the teacher's unions. The teachers who agree to work at charter schools are often younger and are willing to give up higher pay for the flexibility and creativity they want to bring to the job. This is great but it can't become the norm! They are very low paid and it is hard to say how long they can really last in that kind of envirnment. I think this is often the case with private school teachers but I would guess a lot of people can give up some pay and benefits only because they have another adult in the household who is earning a decent living, or possibly living with parents or just starting out in life and don't have a lot of expences. Over time the long term consequences of never seeing much of a pay raise are severe and difficult.

[Bill Call]

Another point I haven't seen mentioned is the threat to stability that not having a union will cause. We haven't had many strikes in these parts because the unions and administraitons have done a good job negotiating. Teachers have given up a lot, fewer raises, paying more for benefits, what more can they give up?

The underlying threat from the Lakewood Teachers Association has always been "Give us what we want or we will destroy your schools". The fear of that threat has led to the complete breakdown in the collective bargaining process. Rather than fight for the taxpayers and the students the majority on the board has simply given the LTA a blank check.

Sentate Bill 5 is a long overdue reform of the collective bargaining process. The school board should use the new powers granted in that bill to:

Balance the school budget without tax increases

Give teachers the 8 hour day and 40 hour work week

Insitute year round schooling

Replace defined benefit plans with a defined contribution plans

Eliminate step raises

Eliminate automatic raises for MBA's

Limit the employers contribution to the pension to 10% of wages

Limit the employers portion of health insurance to 50% of the premium

Remove limits on teacher contact with students (currently limited to 30 hours per week)

The LTA has used its cozy relationship with the board to write themselves a blank check. It is time to demand some accountability.

[Sean Wheeler]

Wow. I refer back to all of my previous posts.

Thanks for the support Bill and best of luck in your demands.

[Ellen Cormier]

@ Bill,

Why don't we just repeal the 20th century while we're at it? Clearly you have no idea how much time teachers spend outside the classroom working late into the night grading papers and writing lesson plans, nor the continuing education time put in during the Summer.

I think your benefit proposals would leave a teacher's takehome pay down to poverty levels. Some facts on what teachers are actually contributing now to pension and health insurance would be helpful to compare and contrast your proposal though.

Lastly, I do think year round school has some merit and is definitely worth taking a look at. To make that work...of course year round school means quite a lot of extra costs from air conditioning to extra staff.

[Ellen Cormier]

regarding:

The underlying threat from the Lakewood Teachers Association has always been "Give us what we want or we will destroy your schools".

That is a pretty serious claim. What evidence do you have to back up this statement?

If asking to be treated as a professional employee with coresponding pay, benefits and working conditions is an implicit threat to destroy schools, I think we have some bigger problems to deal with, IMHO.

[Stan Austin]

Ellen---that certainly is another outrageous claim which is typical of the tactics of those who eschew rational discussion.
I have personally know many teachers over the years who have been officers of the Lakewood Teachers Association. My relationship with them was such that they felt free to discuss their private opinions regarding their roles. Sometimes these opinions and assessments could be very blunt and candid.
But never, never did one of these teachers revert into false braggadocio and say "we will ruin the schools."
Unfortunately, however, it seems that those kinds of delusional falsehoods are the bedrock of much of today's political thinking on the part of those who childly dance with glee at the prospect of a third world status for Ohio and America.
Stan Austin

[Bill Call]

@ Bill,

Why don't we just repeal the 20th century while we're at it? Clearly you have no idea how much time teachers spend outside the classroom working late into the night grading papers and writing lesson plans, nor the continuing education time put in during the Summer.

An eight hour day and fourty hour week are 20th Century ideas. It seems a bit ironic that the idea of an eight hour day and 48 week work year would send the LTA into hysterics.

Lakewood City schools are faced with a $10 million annual budget deficit. The LTA is insisting that we simply raise taxes $10 million per year and continue business as usual. I'm insiting that the Lakewood Schools need fundamental reform. It's time the public education burearcracy enters the 21st century.

The underlying threat is always: "Give us what we want or we go on strike. Give us what we want or we destroy your schools". The Board of Education simply caves in. The City Fire and Police unions always force the City into binding arbitration. Why? Because the arbitrator never gives less than the City's last offer and often gives a lot more. The system is completely broken. SB5 is a very mild attempt to restore some balance and some sanity.

Most of the people who work for the City and the Schools live somewhere else. There primary concern is that the complacent cash cow will wake up.

Don't get yourself all tied up into a knot over this discussion. In some sense the City has reached the point of no return; so many people are dependent upon government that they are immune to arguments about balanced budgets, economic stewardship, responsible budgeting and civic duty. There only concern is that the government check keep on coming.

[Gary Rice]

Ellen,

On this one point ONLY, I will agree here with Mr. Call: Try not to get too worked up with these 'Deck interchanges. You might not convince many people of your points, but at the same time, it is good that you make those points.

Welcome to the 'Deck, by the way. Glad to have you with us!

Mr. Call and I have battled for years over this topic. I've met him, and I do like the man personally. This is just a topic that he and I obviously feel deeply about, and may not ever agree on. At the same time, he certainly has a right to his point of view, as do I, mine.

Although Bill... I do think that I've caught you with a bit of an inconsistency here, and I can't resist bringing it to your attention. I have to chuckle with your claim (above) that on the one hand, you seem to feel that the LTA would threaten to to "destroy your schools", while in the same posting, you state that the LTA has a "cozy relationship" with the Board?

Now THAT'S what I would call a true love-hate relationship, if, in fact, it ever existed....

In all honesty, when Bill first started posting his positions here, I was amazed to read them. Lately, it is obvious to me that his viewpoints are shared by a great many people. As plainly as I can put it, I think that those who do support public employee unions, (as well as those who support the concept of unions generally) have a great deal of work to do, to convince the general public of the continued validity of their cause. The battle has indeed been joined, and the outcome seems very much uncertain at this time.

Back to the (union-made) banjo...

[Sean Wheeler]

Lakewood teachers regularly work more than eight hours a day and 40 hours a week. Bill, you don't know what you're talking about. Plain and simple. As I've often offered in the past when you made these ridiculous claims, please take the time to sit with any teacher and add up the hours. If you can find even ONE SINGLE TEACHER anywhere in this city that confines their work day to the 8-3 school day, I'll eat my hat (or Varejao wig). Mr. Call, you occasionally make solid arguments and, like Gary, I've met you and know that you are a good guy. But you need to get a clear picture on the teachers' workday.

I will agree that our contract fails to take into consideration the numerous hours that I work outside of the school work day. In this climate, I know that I am going to work towards having the union and administration finally admit that the work I do outside of class is a vital part of our education system, and without it, the whole system would grind to a halt. Since I do most of my grading online using digital texts, I have a clear record of the hours and hours of additional time that are required to get essays graded, plans made, and online individualized student help for students in need of further instruction.
Again, be absolutely clear that I am NOT complaining about my work load. It goes with the territory. But I will not let the idea that teachers work fewer than 8 hours a day and 40 hours a week go unchallenged. It is a ridiculous claim that shows how far removed some of the public discourse is from reality. If you want to push for full-year school, have at it, maybe I'll join in. But please stop with this nonsense that we don't work enough or spend enough time with students.

btw - We had a great conversation at The Root yesterday. Thanks to everyone who showed up.

[Ellen Cormier]

Yes it was a good discussion yesterday! And thank you Gary for welcoming me aboard the deck! This a great community forum and I hope more in the community come to see what a useful community tool it can be. I think we get so overwhelmed at the globalness of the internet that we forget what a force it can be locally. I do hope to be a very frequent poster here. Sorry it took me so long.

To Bill, I think darn near everybody is concerned with balancing budgets, liberal as well as conservative. Perhaps the main distinction comes from whether or not to tax the wealthy more or balance the budgets on the backs of children and the poor and also the elderly.

I find the idea of balancing the Federal and State budgets on the backs of the poor, the young and the old to be morally reprehensible and an outrage. I also am very aware of the hostility towards the poor or those that are on all types of government assistance. I strongly believe this is extremely misplaced anger, though perhaps that is for another thread.

I am not entirely sure where this hostility against the last bastion of the middle class is coming from but surely this is also quite misplaced anger. We should be fighting for better wages, conditions, benefits for everybody instead of tearing down the ones who are hanging onto it by a thread. I can also assure you that taking down the public employees unions will vastly lower the quality of services we receive from all aspects of public service from police and ambulance drivers to teachers and nurses who will no longer be able to bargain for working conditions.

I can also assure you over time the public employees with families who find themselves with decreased wages will be qualifying for government benefits in many cases, so does this really end up saving any money in the end? A family of 4 making less than 44k a year (just about the average teacher salary right now) can qualify for some kinds of assistance. the lower you go below that the more assistance you can qualify for. Add that to substantially reduced tax revenue from lower paid workers, I highly doubt we will save any money and in fact over time could be quite a lot more expensive.

I do see how we are at a dangerous tipping point. House prices have fallen dramatically at a time when a massive amount of teachers and other public employees (baby boomers) are in peak earning years as well as upcoming massive retirements combined with some disastrous stock losses in retirement accounts. It is a bad place to be financially for the state but this is in no way the fault of the unions nor the people who have been dedicated to their profession, have educated thousands of students, worked hard, paid taxes and saved money.

Even further, because we have as a nation sold our souls to cheap oil and goods from China and elsewhere, we have become a strange kind of welfare state, corporate and otherwise, it does require a detailed analysis and a vision of the future from the left and the right to find a steady path out of the labyrinth of the current crisis we find ourselves in.

[Roy Pitchford]

[Gary Rice]

I guess that I'm going to need to be very careful in my response here. Ordinarily, I try to bring people together here on the 'Deck, to see whether a consensus can be arrived at, regarding just about whatever issue comes down the pike.

That's why I like to do the symbolic "banjo and sing-a-long" thing here. I've tried to be sort of a peacemaker figure around here; up 'till now, that is.

This issue, however, is different.

Way different.

This issue involves some of the most wonderful human beings with whom I have had the pleasure to know, and to associate myself with, for over 30 years; those being your children's classroom teachers, your police, your fire personnel, and your public maintenance people.

This issue involves their salaries, benefits, present and future retirement pensions, and ultimately yes, it will reflect on the type of people who will be attracted to the public employee sector of the economy in the future, as well.

For years, the trade off for them has generally been lower salaries now, in exchange for benefits and a solid retirement plan later on.

We never heard any complaining when some of my other friends in the private sector were making 3 times our salaries, and achieving double digit annual returns on their private tax-deferred retirement accounts at a time when I was just about able to put $10 a pay period into my pitiful little retirement account. Of course, to offset my low public employee wages, I did have a benefit package, and the STRS retirement plan to hope for, someday.

It would have been different, had you (the public) paid us a prevailing private sector wage, and allowed us to invest it as we chose.

But we could not even keep all of our pittance. You (the public) even forced us to return to higher education time and again, spending who knows HOW many dollars for even more education, for which, after gobs of credit hours, we finally inched up another modest salary step or so over the years.

You made your deal, and now you want to change it? I'd probably have been glad to have gone the other way many times, but the deal you made was etched in stone. True, we, who were unionized, were able to negotiate some things, but unlike what some may think, we could get nothing at all unless you all, through your elected representatives, agreed to it.

Sorry, this is not about cartoons.

This is not about sound bites.

This is not about banjos.

This is about people's lives.

This... is about the truth.

Whatever this is, it certainly is not a consensus.

All just my private opinion here, and I may be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

[Ellen Cormier]

Roy,

You have such good quotes in your sig line, why would you fall for such a fluff piece? That video addresses nothing. I like the idea about the kids being unionized. That's something to think about and gave me a good chuckle!

Gary,

100,000 people turned out in Wisconsin on Saturday. That says a lot. Could the "tea party" pull that off? What's it going to take to get that kind of momentum in Ohio? I think the support is there, were just a little quieter here.

There are some rallies going on all over the place tomorrow at 5. West side market, strongeville high school (I think), and someplace on center ridge. You can check the moveon.org site for details.