The Observation Deck

Tim--- If the premise of one's argument is based on absurdity then succinctness is adequate. Stan

Tim Liston wrote:I bet I’m the only person in this thread that has had to fire 20 people because there was no longer enough revenue to keep them employed. That kinda sucks for me but especially for them. At least my family and I are hanging on, if only by my fingernails.

Since I am a partner in a business that employees 30 people I understand your plight. However, most of the people who write on the board don't have a clue. They think that others people's money will never run out, that government can never spend to much and (like President Obama) the reason you had to fire 20 people is because you couldn't borrow more money.

Avon spend $8,000 per pupil and gets fantastic results. Cleveland Heights spends $16,000 per pupil and gets terrible results. Don't ask why because it might upset people.

Even the LA times is starting to get a glimmer of understanding:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 0740.story

Bill -

Please answer these questions.

1) What's are the minimum and maximum amounts that should be spent on a child attending public school in Ohio?

2) What's the maximum a local board should pay a school district superintendent/CEO?

3) What's the maximum a teacher should get paid annually (base salary and benefits)?

Thanks.

David Anderson wrote:Bill -

Please answer these questions.

1) What's are the minimum and maximum amounts that should be spent on a child attending public school in Ohio?

2) What's the maximum a local board should pay a school district superintendent/CEO?

3) What's the maximum a teacher should get paid annually (base salary and benefits)?

Thanks.

Keep in mind that what the State reports as the amount spent per student DOES NOT INCLUDE the cost of bonds used to construct new schools. So the actual depreciable cost of the school buildings would not be counted in that $8,000.

We know that $8,000 per year per student buys an excellent education. So..


25 kids in a class times $8,000 gives $200,000 to maintain one classroom for one year. There is your budget. Within that budget you are free to spend it anyway you like.

So.. Average teacher salary $60,000 for an EIGHT HOUR day for 171 school days is $43.85 per hour ( more than almost all professionals)

401 (k) match up to 5% of salary $3,000.

Health insurancance within an HSA - Employer HSA match $2,000 plus premium of $9,000 (employee pays 25%), employer pays a total of $8,750.

Utilities and general maintenance for one class room $1,500.


total spent: $73,750



With the balance of $126,250 you can hire teacher assistants, pay for tutors and whatever else your heart desires within your budget. (one of the great mysteries of education is why all those MBA's need all those supervisors). I guess I would throw in a short and long term disabilty policy to cover illness and injury, cost $5 per week.

On the other hand why not look to see how Avon spends its $8,000? They get great results.

Bill,

Lakewood City Schools and Avon Schools serve completely different student populations. I checked the most recent report cards for each district and they are in no way comparable. Avon's student population is 3.7% Black, 2.8% Asian, 2.7% Hispanic, 2.2% multi-racial, 88.6% White, 9.4% economically disadvantaged, 1.1% limited English and 10.8% having a disability. On the other hand Lakewood's student population is 9.7% Black, .3% Native American, 2.6% Asian, 3.8% Hispanic, 6.2% multi-racial, 77.3% White, 49.7% economically disadvantaged, 8.1% limited English and 15.7% having a disability. Further, Lakewood is the only inner ring district in the county achieving an excellent rating.

If you want to compare spending with outcomes at least use comparable districts.

Don't forget the schools also have to pay for cafeteria workers, playground monitors, librarians, intervention specialists, classroom aides, speech teachers, occupational therapists, counselors, and ESL teachers and I know I am forgetting many people.

Also just throwing this data out there that relates to extra staff being needed in the schools Avon school enrollment includes 1.1% students with limited english (38 students) and 10.8% with disabilities (374), Lakewood's numbers are 8.1% with limited english (454 students) and 15.7% with disabilities (880 students). I am sure that you can understand that it does take far more money to take care of those needs.

Kate, I see we are on the same wavelength. I looked at not only the percentages but the amount of students that equaled out to be because just looking at ESL students Avon has 38 while we have 454, that is an enormous difference and that means a huge cost difference.

Bill –

Just to be sure, despite all the back and forth about the additional costs of serving students with disabilities and with food, clothing and housing needs, you firmly believe that Ohio’s other 650+ public school districts can employ Avon’s $8,000 per pupil model and achieve the same results.

I'm still waiting to hear how Bill expects to provide high-skilled education without colleges or diplomas?

Bryan--- that's where the $800 ---- woops, I mean $1 billion that Bill literally created out of thin air comes in. As long as some people are hell bent on discrediting the whole concept of education, why not just have MAGIC diplomas?!

P.S. Hey Tim---

Stan

David Anderson wrote:Bill -

Please answer these questions.

1) What's are the minimum and maximum amounts that should be spent on a child attending public school in Ohio?

2) What's the maximum a local board should pay a school district superintendent/CEO?

3) What's the maximum a teacher should get paid annually (base salary and benefits)?

Thanks.

Isn't is a bit foolish to assume that the cost of living is identical throughout Ohio (I know Uncle Sam does it, but he's hardly a model of economic acuity) and that pay should be identical? It seems that if you insist on paying the same salary in an expensive or unattractive area as in an inexpensive or attractive area, you will be overspending in many cases. I would think a prospective employee would accept a lower pay package in a pleasant, safe, environment area like Avon, than in a dangerous and unpleasant environment like Cleveland. or even Cleveland Heights.

Bill Call wrote:We know that $8,000 per year per student buys an excellent education.

Not buying into that. I don't trust the criteria for excellence, so I don't trust the premise.


What if we change direction a little bit? Today, forbes.com published a list ranking colleges. We all know that rankings are a big seller with the media.

Here is a Yahoo link about the rankings. It mentions some of the criteria, but like most ranking systems, I found the methodology lacking. You be the judge.

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/backtoscho ... s-2293942/

Oddly, if you follow some of the links in this story, there is a Forbes link to their methodology. It does not work.

I couldn't get these tables to paste in with an easily readable format. You can follow along if you know that the first number is the rank, then the name of the college, then its state, followed by the cost and total student population.

To make life easier for you, I'll show a link after each of the following tables so you can see it in an easy-to-read format.

The first table shows the top 25 ranked colleges out of over 600. You can go to the link to see them all. Williams College is ranked #1 for $49,530. #4 is the United States Military Academy for $0. Using Bill Call logic, how could Harvard dare charge $50,250 for a #8 rank, especially when we know that $0 will buy an excellent education? Also, you would figure that by sheer numbers of students, Harvard, at 26,496, could have some economies (Volume discounts in purchasing, etc.) over #3 ranked Amherst College that educates only 1,697 students for $20 less each than Harvard.

What other interesting conclusions could we draw from this data? I don't know. I'll leave that to Bill, Will, and Tim.

Forbes.com - America's Best Colleges 8-11-10 wrote:Rank Name State Cost Total Student Population
1 Williams College MA 49,530 2,072
2 Princeton University NJ 49,830 7,330
3 Amherst College MA 50,230 1,697
4 United States Military Academy NY 0 4,553
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology MA 50,100 10,299
6 Stanford University CA 51,760 17,833
7 Swarthmore College PA 50,381 1,490
8 Harvard University MA 50,250 26,496
9 Claremont McKenna College CA 50,990 1,212
10 Yale University CT 51,400 10,192
11 United States Air Force Academy CO 0 4,537
12 Wellesley College MA 50,026 2,498
13 Columbia University NY 51,406 23,196
14 Haverford College PA 51,637 1,169
15 Wesleyan University CT 51,935 3,149
16 Whitman College WA 46,212 1,458
17 Pomona College CA 49,745 1,532
18 Northwestern University IL 52,120 19,291
19 California Institute of Technology CA 48,990 2,126
20 University of Chicago IL 53,310 14,788
21 Carleton College MN 50,000 1,983
22 Harvey Mudd College CA 50,073 738
23 Vassar College NY 51,370 2,389
24 Centre College KY 39,200 1,197
25 Rice University TX 43,586 5,357

You can view the above list at:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/bes ... _Rank.html


To have even more fun, look at the list below. By the way, if you follow the links to these tables, you can click on the column headers to sort by that column. This one is sorted by cost. The most expensive school, Sarah Lawrence College, is only ranked #170. You have to get to the 17th most expensive college to find one that is ranked in the top 10. That would be #6 Stanford University.

Forbes.com - America's Best Colleges 8-11-10 wrote:Rank Name State Cost Total Student Population
170 Sarah Lawrence College NY 54,854 1,715
52 Georgetown University DC 54,200 15,318
20 University of Chicago IL 53,310 14,788
291 George Washington University DC 52,692 25,116
76 Washington University, St. Louis MO 52,464 13,339
26 Middlebury College VT 52,460 2,455
43 Vanderbilt University TN 52,303 12,093
18 Northwestern University IL 52,120 19,291
91 Drew University NJ 52,106 2,581
173 New York University NY 52,082 42,189
27 Boston College MA 52,060 14,836
63 Barnard College NY 51,976 2,359
108 Carnegie Mellon University PA 51,960 10,875
251 Bennington College VT 51,950 759
15 Wesleyan University CT 51,935 3,149
112 University of Southern California CA 51,881 33,747
6 Stanford University CA 51,760 17,833
94 Cooper Union NY 51,755 972
83 Connecticut College CT 51,685 1,852
14 Haverford College PA 51,637 1,169
79 Mount Holyoke College MA 51,516 2,241
80 Skidmore College NY 51,501 2,777
88 John Hopkins University MD 51,478 19,758
203 Fordham University NY 51,407 14,666
13 Columbia University NY 51,406 23,196

The above list can be viewed at:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/bes ... nCamp.html


So, in the end, what do all these numbers tell us about college education costs, efficiencies based on volume of students, quality (excellence?), and rankings?

I haven't a clue. I'd have to accept the methodology and the rankings as the whole story. Even then, I'm not sure any of this makes any sense.

.

Will Brown wrote:David Anderson wrote:Bill -

Please answer these questions.

1) What's are the minimum and maximum amounts that should be spent on a child attending public school in Ohio?

2) What's the maximum a local board should pay a school district superintendent/CEO?

3) What's the maximum a teacher should get paid annually (base salary and benefits)?

Thanks.

Isn't is a bit foolish to assume that the cost of living is identical throughout Ohio (I know Uncle Sam does it, but he's hardly a model of economic acuity) and that pay should be identical? It seems that if you insist on paying the same salary in an expensive or unattractive area as in an inexpensive or attractive area, you will be overspending in many cases. I would think a prospective employee would accept a lower pay package in a pleasant, safe, environment area like Avon, than in a dangerous and unpleasant environment like Cleveland. or even Cleveland Heights.

Yes, it is foolish.

However, attempts to have Bill and others embrace the complexity of the issue of providing an effective and equal public education to all seem to fall on deaf ears. (Complexities include socio-economic status and the non academic needs of students and families, the degree to which English is spoken in the home, school building age and size, transportation, students with learning challenges, many others and, now, living standards.)

At least now we have Bill on record as stating that $8,000 per pupil per year is his magic number from which education can be delivered, teachers and all staff paid, buildings maintained, health care and retirement options provided, etc.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS POSSIBLE! Yet, I appreciate his taking a stand and stab at it which is more than the collective group in Columbus are willing to do. Top men and women there refuse to define in public the high and low of what the cost per pupil in Ohio should be because they know there is no way it could ever be affordable.

Should affordability be part of the debate or should we be delivering whatever it takes at whatever the costs?

David Anderson wrote:However, attempts to have Bill and others embrace the complexity of the issue of providing an effective and equal public education to all seem to fall on deaf ears. (Complexities include socio-economic status and the non academic needs of students and families, the degree to which English is spoken in the home, school building age and size, transportation, students with learning challenges, many others and, now, living standards.)

Translation: No matter how much is spent it won’t be enough so quit asking why and just pay up.

David Anderson wrote:At least now we have Bill on record as stating that $8,000 per pupil per year is his magic number from which education can be delivered, teachers and all staff paid, buildings maintained, health care and retirement options provided, etc.

$8,000 per year buys an excellent education in Avon and hundreds of communities around the country. Cities like Cleveland Heights spend twice that much and get terrible results. I ask why? You say don’t ask why, just pay up.

David Anderson wrote:Should affordability be part of the debate or should we be delivering whatever it takes at whatever the costs?

Yes.
Because when people talk about more money spent on education they mean
bigger raises,
less time spent with students,
more sick days,
free health care,
free dental care,
free eye care,
COLA raises,
step raises,
continuing education raises
early retirement
earlier retirement
and more.

The EXTRA $50 million dollars needed by the Lakewood schools system over the next five years will not buy 10 minutes of extra teaching time. Why?

Don’t ask it upsets people.

Over the next 10 years, on a per student basis, Cleveland Heights will spend $450 MILLION dollars more than Avon.. And? And it won’t make one bit of difference. Why?

Don’t ask is upsets people.

Hint: Because the extra money is simply used to pay the same people more money to do the same thing.

It’s time to rethink the whole process. (I know, that’s impossible so just shut up and pay more).

Of course the teachers unions have found a way to keep the gravy train rolling without giving in to those pesky reformers, raid the food stamp program:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kati-hayc ... 74770.html

Now that's creative thinking.

Bill Call wrote:$8,000 per year buys an excellent education in Avon and hundreds of communities around the country. Cities like Cleveland Heights spend twice that much and get terrible results. I ask why? You say don’t ask why, just pay up.

Folks here are telling you why it costs more to educate students in Cleve. Hts. (whose 93.2% graduation rate is above the state average of 84.6%). You just don't want accept the fact that some districts have students who are vastly more expensive to teach.

You tell us, Bill. Why is Avon able to deliver an "excellent education" (with a not perfect graduation rate of 98.4%) while other districts get "terrible results"? Are Avon teachers not in a union? What is it?

Instead of bashing those districts you feel are delivering terrible results please publish the virtues of those you feel are excellent.