The Observation Deck

Ryan Salo wrote:I think the teacher's union really should work for the good of the community but lets be realistic. If this levy fails the teachers are not going to take a cut the kids programs will get cut.

That is the reality. Teachers Unions might talk about the children but as their national president said, "The students aren't my constiuency".

Personally, I'm not a big fan of reality.

Please source and document that alleged remark, Bill. I've just searched the 'net and cannot find any reference to anything said like that at all. I suppose that just about anyone could be guilty of making a flippant or off-the-cuff-remark, but that really sounds to me as if it may have been taken out of context.

Although the primary mission of a teachers association is, of course, to represent the interests of educators, many associations offer scholarships for students, or participate in numerous other student assistance programs. In the district where I taught, for example, we did many things, as an association, to help students (and even their families) in need.

I'm sure that many of those involved with teachers associations would also argue that many of the same improvements that they have bargained for over the years have also benefited students in a great many ways.

People wanting to talk "reality" need to know that the "reality" is, that good things happen every day in the schools. The reality is, that teachers teach, teachers care, teachers produce, and teachers also need, (and more importantly, have the legal right) to be able to bargain for a fair paycheck for their efforts.

Here in Lakewood, I think that the schools and the teachers' association really came through for you. The question now is, will you, the public, also come through for our schools?

Back to the banjo...

[quote="Tim Liston"]
Where teacher compensation has gotten way out of hand is with the pensions. One big reason this has happened is that teachers granted themselves a series of ad hoc pension “enhancements” in the 80’s and 90’s when their pension plan was fully funded, and those enhancements are still in place today even though the plan is worse than broke.
Mind you I have no problem with whatever pension arrangement the teachers grant themselves and fund themselves. I admittedly have a hissy fit when teachers promise themselves pensions that they cannot possibly fund, then as will inevitably happen, insist on taxpayer bailouts.
quote]

STRS just put new rules into effect about teacher retirement age and years of service and increased required percentages of contributions because the law requires the system to be solvent for thirty years into the future.

Bill---- Remember back when you and Brett took up a challenge to debate the LHS debate team? The debate topic escapes me at the moment. But, you and Brett quite properly recognized the importance of a formal debate, with rules, as symbolized by your jacket and tie business attire. As I recall, it was a very stimulating event and benefited all who attended.
Now, we all recognize (and occasionally appreciate) your style of debate on the Deck. It can best be generously described as vigorously aggressive. It does have its attention getting merits and it does get the discussion going.
However, I would suggest that you go back to that more formalistic style which you and Brett exhibited that evening and try and present facts, and not do a "Boehner".
I think your arguments would be better considered if they stayed "Lakewood rational" instead of "National Crazy."
Your close, personal friend
Stan

Sorry, I posted this wrong. Try http://www.schooldigger.com/, one of the many sites but you can sort until your hearts content.

I have never been a big believer that numbers tell all because numbers alone tell lies and liars tell numbers, what is left, but a reality check since the school district has such a narcissistic attitude towards property owners.

School Districts probably have the worse accountability attitude of all the government bodies except Congress and that has to be a close second. If the taxpayers don't continue to throw good money after bad, they threaten to halt and/or reduce sports, the arts, and supplies simply to show if they didn't get the funding they will punish the students. They use their students to promote their request for additional funding instead of marketing performance because they continue to operate in a fat and bloated budget that was established when economic conditions allowed it.

Common sense like cursive writing has disappeared from our education system and it’s time we make them accountable for their performance. Someone wrote “the way the schools go so does the community” but what about vacant property, empty store fronts, weak employment in the private sector, section 8 housing, etc., etc. In fact, economic factors killed a lot more communities then an over-funded school district not getting additional monies to squander.

I am compelled to note that my son, who attends a Lakewood public elementary school, learned to write in cursive in third grade.

I also have to ask: Are monies like fishes?

With those animals that swim in the sea, if you have a whole bunch of one kind, no matter what size, they are all fish. But if you have more than one kind, those several kinds are known as fishes.

Do the schools have a bunch of different kinds of monies? Like Euros and Pounds, etc? Or is it just a whole bunch of American money?

.

lisa shaffer-gill writes....

STRS just put new rules into effect about teacher retirement age and years of service and increased required percentages of contributions because the law requires the system to be solvent for thirty years into the future.

That's not what happened. No new rules are in effect. The fact is, STRS cannot itself put new rules into effect. That requires passage by Ohio congress, and such legislation has not even been introduced. The fact is, serious discussion of this issue is not even anticipated until after the November 2010 election.

Here's where we're at. Last fall the Ohio Retirement Study Council recommended changes to Ohio's five public employee pension plans (including STRS) to improve their funding levels. The ORSC is an oversight committee that reports to the Ohio legislature. Last month, an STRS committee proposed an alternative to the ORSC proposal for consideration by the STRS board. The newly-proposed changes water down the already minor changes that were proposed by the ORSC. Neither the original ORSC proposal or the watered down version reduce the funding level to 30 years even given the unlikely 8% rate of return assumed by the plan. This is according to the STRS itself.

Even if passed in either form, there will be no changes whatsoever to service requirements and benefits for the nearly 500,000 current employees and retirees. The changes only impact teachers who are hired after the legislation takes effect, they don't take effect immediately, and when the changes do take effect they are phased in over many years. The bottom line is that the already enormous funding gap, the gap that is eventually going to cost each and every Ohio taxpayer ten thousand dollars or more, is likely to continue to grow even after “reforms” are passed, if in fact they are ever passed.

If this levy fails the teachers are not going to take a cut the kids programs will get cut.

I have seen Dr. Madak's levy presentation several times. He has made it clear that even if the levy passes that there will be a reduction in force. I don't like the idea that class sizes may go up when we are already struggling with the classroom size. I have seen the list of teachers who have already decided to retire next year, but I don't know how many more will be cut. We haven't been told. That is just the thing. We never get specifics. I don't DON'T like feeling threatened by the District or made to feel guilty that if we don't pass the levy it will be our fault that our kids get their programs cut. And, I don't think our BOE has earned our trust, they mostly have avoided being accountable for many of the decisions they make. What have they promised us if we pass the levy? Open meetings? Common-sensed decisions in regard to our facilities plan? Why do we have to cut teachers first? Aren't there other areas that can be cut? I don't know. I don't know because our BOE is closed off and disconnected from whom they are supposed to serve. It is difficult for me to take a leap off faith.

Now on the flip side of that is the reality that in Ohio this is how we fund our schools. I do believe that teachers should be able to make a good living. I am still paying for my student loan which is the size of what a doctor or lawyer may pay for school (I have a Med). I want to be clear though that although I am supporting the levy I think we need to keep pushing for accountability. We need to keep asking the School Board questions, pushing for open committee meetings, and we need to find good people to run for our BOE.

Richard –

Ohio only has 613 public school districts yet Web site address you provided lists 718 Ohio school districts (there are likely over 1000 school system entities in Ohio). What’s the value in comparing Lakewood City with Lion of Judah Academy?

Also, unless I missed it, neither of Lakewood’s middle schools are ranked at all.

You wrote earlier that the “Lakewood rating sucks in comparison for the funding per students.” Again, how are you coming to this determination?

I’ve defended my posts and opinion that Lakewood’s schools are performing better than in 2003-2004 and in comparison to similar districts. I base this opinion by comparing total population, ethnic breakdown, per pupil expenditure alongside the percentage of students considered economically disadvantaged, exhibiting limited English proficiency and with disabilities.

Please share the formula, for lack of a better term, that you used to come to your determination. I am open to learning.

P.S. - I’m not sure that posting a Web site address substantiates your claims.

"When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children." Albert Shankar, President, AFT.

School children still don't pay union dues, and the unions still don't represent the interests of school children, other than as a ploy to enrich themselves.

I certainly am glad that people are able to see the kinds of attitudes that some people have towards teachers and their professional associations, their retirement plans, their salaries, and their working conditions.

It's just amazing, isn't it?

Now I would hope that people would have a better understanding as to some of the reasons WHY teachers unionized years ago.

Teacher's unions "enriching themselves"?

Yeah, right.

...and Will, I'll simply suggest to you, what I've suggested to others.

Since you put that alleged quote out there, please provide your source for it.

Why not compare Lakewood with private schools, they generally have a lower per student funding than a public school and they are in education. Another thought comes to mind when I think of the effect on the school district if all the private school students suddenly enrolled in the public school system.

Jim, you are correct, I can afford the property tax increase, but it will be a lot more than one night of beer. No problem, I am already working forced labor until April of each year for the privilege of more government than ever dreamed of by the founders of this country. What about the people on fixed income, lost their jobs thru no fault of their own and had to take employment with less pay and no benefits or just unemployment, lost health insurance coverage or have to pay COBRA payments, working on a fixed budget or not as lucky as us. I am more of libertarian than anything else but taxes can move people at the bottom of the pay scale into socialism by taxing them into poverty. I never vote for taxes because I can afford them.

What do we think about teachers? Maybe the unenthusiastic attitude is towards teachers as a group, but individually, I have not read any personal attacks. Be proud that your profession, you still rank up with the firefighters and police. The argument is about the bang for the buck and Lakewood School District failure to have an acceptable test score. You cannot run around, sing life is wonderful, and ignore the ratings and ask for more money with no objections. You cannot do that in the private sector and I can’t think of an excuse to allow a government body that has considerable higher wages and better benefits then the people who fund it, get away with it.

As with any organizations, changes in culture and attitude that effect results starts at the top and shifts down through the ranks. I would never expect a single teacher to change the rating, perhaps a majority could, but teachers are the doers and not management.

One big difference between public and private schools is public schools have to accept everyone that lives in their boundaries and private schools can pick and choose who they want to accept making them not equal. And another key difference is that generally kids in private schools have parents who take an active interest in their child's education that is not always the case with kids in public schools. Studies show that parental involvement is one of the key factors in academic success for children.

Per the 2010 City of Lakewood Refuse and Recycling budget, the average salary is just over 48k per year. From previous posts, a teacher with a college degree and 7 years experience makes 45k per year. Anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

Vote yes on Issue 6!

Lakewood Schools spend $924 per student per year on Administrative functions. This is the lowest of all 31 districts in Cuyahoga County. There is no more to cut from Admin. Cuts will be made in the number of teachers even if the levy passes. If the levy does not pass, there will be even more cuts in the number of teachers. I'm not talking a few here and there. There will be major reductions. How can this not impact the kids and quality of education? This is not a threat. This is a reality. It’s not meant to guilt you into voting yes. Everyone needs to look at their priorities and vote accordingly. I have two kids, 6 and 4, who will graduate from Lakewood. My 6 year old is in kindergarten at Roosevelt. He is learning to read, write, do math and count in French. How awesome is that! This is my priority. My neighbor's kids are in Lakewood schools too. They are my priority as well. What’s your priority?

I understand people's frustration with getting hit up for more taxes, especially in this economy. This levy is reported to cost $18 per month per 100k of home value. For me that's about $25 a month. I'm willing to forgo a few pints at the Beer Engine to keep our schools excellent. What are you willing to do without? I guarantee the teacher making 45k isn’t eating Kobe Wagyu beef for dinner, why should we make his family eat Ramen noodles?

If you're unhappy with teacher pay, take it out on the school board. They negotiate contracts with the teachers union. Elect people who will take a hard line on pay and benefits in contract negotiations. Elect people who are in favor of and will negotiate for a merit-based pay system instead of the socialist everyone gets the same raise system. Let the cream rise to the top and the cheese fall to the bottom. Elect people who are in favor of and who will negotiate for provisions to fire "bad" teachers. I'm betting there will be some challengers to incumbent board members in the next couple of election cycles. Maybe one of those challengers should be you?

If you're unhappy with STRS and how they operate, take it out on your state reps. Elect someone with your point of view. Or you run for the seat. Ohio House District 13 election is this year. Make your case and I might vote for you.

Vote yes on Issue 6!