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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:16 pm
by Justine Cooper
Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:we can sit here and pour our thoughts and feelings into a page long post to prove our thinking to be the most rational, when US troops are dying by the dozens every day. That should be reason enough to pull out. Iraqi forces and government officials are sitting back in their chairs and sipping margaritas as US troops lay their lives on the line. Until we make them do something, we will go nowhere. The ball is in their court.
I can't sit here and think that I have the answer to this mess, and I highly doubt anyone has the answer. We are fighting a faceless enemy, and we are in the middle of a civil war with a whistle and a rule book where there are no time outs and no holds barred.
there's a difference between a war and a civil war. a big difference.
The only time we can make an impact on this is when we vote for our president. I don't think people realized that when they voted Bush back into the oval office for a second strike.
If there were weapons, where are they now? We can't seem to control where our weapons go either, and the people that are supposed to be arming our soldiers were arming the enemy all this time.
Now we're left with uncertainty, and it doesn't matter if there's a republican or democrat in the oval office come next term. Whatever that President is, or whoever he (or she) is, they will not be able to get rid of the horrible stench on our shoes from the pile of crap that this regime has stepped into.
OMG I was just thinking the same thing!!! Thanks for the reminder Ivor, but what I was specifically thinking was, UNLESS YOU SIT IN THE SHOES OF A FAMILY MEMBER WHOM HAS LOST A FATHER, BROTHER, SON, DAUGHTER MOTHER, ETC. HOW DARE YOU SIT IN YOUR NICE HOME AND SAY THIS WAR IS JUSTIFIED STEHPEN E.?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:17 pm
by Justine Cooper
Justine Cooper wrote:Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:we can sit here and pour our thoughts and feelings into a page long post to prove our thinking to be the most rational, when US troops are dying by the dozens every day. That should be reason enough to pull out. Iraqi forces and government officials are sitting back in their chairs and sipping margaritas as US troops lay their lives on the line. Until we make them do something, we will go nowhere. The ball is in their court.
I can't sit here and think that I have the answer to this mess, and I highly doubt anyone has the answer. We are fighting a faceless enemy, and we are in the middle of a civil war with a whistle and a rule book where there are no time outs and no holds barred.
there's a difference between a war and a civil war. a big difference.
The only time we can make an impact on this is when we vote for our president. I don't think people realized that when they voted Bush back into the oval office for a second strike.
If there were weapons, where are they now? We can't seem to control where our weapons go either, and the people that are supposed to be arming our soldiers were arming the enemy all this time.
Now we're left with uncertainty, and it doesn't matter if there's a republican or democrat in the oval office come next term. Whatever that President is, or whoever he (or she) is, they will not be able to get rid of the horrible stench on our shoes from the pile of crap that this regime has stepped into.
OMG I was just thinking the same thing!!! Thanks for the reminder Ivor, but what I was specifically thinking was, UNLESS YOU SIT IN THE SHOES OF A FAMILY MEMBER WHOM HAS LOST A FATHER, BROTHER, SON, DAUGHTER MOTHER, ETC. HOW DARE YOU SIT IN YOUR NICE HOME AND SAY THIS WAR IS JUSTIFIED STEHPEN E.?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:19 pm
by Justine Cooper
I am equally curious to see if the war supporters who are sitting comfortably in their homes, WILL BE THE FIRST TO DO ANY VOLUNTEER SERVICE, BE IT MONEY OR OTHER SERVICES TO WAR VETERANS WHO COME HOME INJURED BEYOND REPAIR, DAMAGED, CRUSHED, UNABLE TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILY. AND FOR THOSE WHO CONDEMN ALL SECTION 8, SOME OF THESE INJURED WAR VETS WILL BE AMONG THAT GROUP.
(Hey DL we need a peace sign emoticon)
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:46 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Justine Cooper wrote:Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:we can sit here and pour our thoughts and feelings into a page long post to prove our thinking to be the most rational, when US troops are dying by the dozens every day. That should be reason enough to pull out. Iraqi forces and government officials are sitting back in their chairs and sipping margaritas as US troops lay their lives on the line. Until we make them do something, we will go nowhere. The ball is in their court.
I can't sit here and think that I have the answer to this mess, and I highly doubt anyone has the answer. We are fighting a faceless enemy, and we are in the middle of a civil war with a whistle and a rule book where there are no time outs and no holds barred.
there's a difference between a war and a civil war. a big difference.
The only time we can make an impact on this is when we vote for our president. I don't think people realized that when they voted Bush back into the oval office for a second strike.
If there were weapons, where are they now? We can't seem to control where our weapons go either, and the people that are supposed to be arming our soldiers were arming the enemy all this time.
Now we're left with uncertainty, and it doesn't matter if there's a republican or democrat in the oval office come next term. Whatever that President is, or whoever he (or she) is, they will not be able to get rid of the horrible stench on our shoes from the pile of crap that this regime has stepped into.
OMG I was just thinking the same thing!!! Thanks for the reminder Ivor, but what I was specifically thinking was, UNLESS YOU SIT IN THE SHOES OF A FAMILY MEMBER WHOM HAS LOST A FATHER, BROTHER, SON, DAUGHTER MOTHER, ETC. HOW DARE YOU SIT IN YOUR NICE HOME AND SAY THIS WAR IS JUSTIFIED STEHPEN E.?
No, I asked Ivor a very specific question. I wanted his opinion. My friend (his nickname is Ducky) volunteered to go to Iraq.
What about the choice of the soldier? If a soldier chooses / volunteers to serve their country with the knowledge that they could lose their life then should we not honor that decision? I have a friend who is currently serving in Iraq. He volunteered to serve in Iraq. Why should your opinion bring him home?
Nice try guys...
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:48 pm
by Justine Cooper
You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright?
Alright?
Alright?
You say you got a real solution
Well you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be alright?
Alright?
Alright?
You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright?
Alright?
Alright?
Alright! Alright! Alright! Alright!...
(Rascal Flats has nicely redone this song)
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:53 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Justine Cooper wrote:I am equally curious to see if the war supporters who are sitting comfortably in their homes, WILL BE THE FIRST TO DO ANY VOLUNTEER SERVICE, BE IT MONEY OR OTHER SERVICES TO WAR VETERANS WHO COME HOME INJURED BEYOND REPAIR, DAMAGED, CRUSHED, UNABLE TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILY. AND FOR THOSE WHO CONDEMN ALL SECTION 8, SOME OF THESE INJURED WAR VETS WILL BE AMONG THAT GROUP.
(Hey DL we need a peace sign emoticon)
If you are askin me?? The answer is yes.. Financially... If the section 8 comment was directed towards me then please show me where I condemned all section 8 housing.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:00 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Are you suggesting that my freedom of speech be limited when voicing my opinion on the war because I am not in the arm services?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:12 pm
by Justine Cooper
Stephen Eisel wrote:Justine Cooper wrote:I am equally curious to see if the war supporters who are sitting comfortably in their homes, WILL BE THE FIRST TO DO ANY VOLUNTEER SERVICE, BE IT MONEY OR OTHER SERVICES TO WAR VETERANS WHO COME HOME INJURED BEYOND REPAIR, DAMAGED, CRUSHED, UNABLE TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILY. AND FOR THOSE WHO CONDEMN ALL SECTION 8, SOME OF THESE INJURED WAR VETS WILL BE AMONG THAT GROUP.
(Hey DL we need a peace sign emoticon)
If you are askin me?? The answer is yes.. Financially... If the section 8 comment was directed towards me then please show me where I condemned all section 8 housing.
No that comment was not specifically directed at you Stephen, but there sure seems to be a lot of people who are against section 8, yet "support" this war and there is a bit of a oxymoron there. Because the sad truth is, there will be more disabled coming home than ones that got killed, and I would hate if any of them ended up needing section 8 because they are no longer able to provide for themselves or their family, to ever hear stereotypical negative comments about all section 8.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:25 pm
by Justine Cooper
Stephen Eisel wrote:Are you suggesting that my freedom of speech be limited when voicing my opinion on the war because I am not in the arm services?
Actually I find the whole freedom of speech particularly bothersome on the deck as a whole, when it would seem that some like to claim it for themselves, but not for others. In Sharon's post under private schools, that falls under freedom of speech. Her opinion was that a mayor who sends his kids to private versus public schools is questionable. To her. And look what happened to that thread, as many others. So yes, the freedom of speech should be valued for every person with it. Specifically for the war I find it bothersome to claim "this is a right and just war" when it is others who are sacrificing lives, ruining families, devastating thousands, when there is no way out, no winners, no proof that there was any reason for us to be there. But that is just me expressing my freedom of speech.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:30 pm
by Justine Cooper
And if you are so concerned with whether or not Saddam was training terrorist to kill Americans (which I still don't see proof of but think that is a ploy to detract from the fact that nuclear weapons weren't found so we have to find something to convince Americans why we were there) then you should be concerned with the fact that the terrorists that killed Americans on 911 actually trained right here in the USA. How did that happen? Some may say we were the country that trained terrorists. Doesn't that put chills down your spine?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:44 pm
by Stephen Eisel
But what about the voice of the soldiers / opinion? (do they not have choice?) My friend decided to enlist in the army so he could go to Iraq. God Bless him! Does his opinion not matter in this debate? That was my point and the reason for the questions to Ivor. Do you really think that majority of the people in the arm services (who are serving in Iraq) agree with the anti-war movement?
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:53 pm
by Justine Cooper
I would bet a kidney that the majority would rather be with their kids and family and don't want to be there and some didn't know they would end up there. I would bet that some are seeing things that you may never hear of and wondering what the heck are we really doing there. And I bet there is a smaller number who are patriotic and doing what they feel is right, what has been told to them by the government. God Bless them all but I don't see how a soldier's decision to go fight there justifies this war and all the deaths and destruction that has followed, with no "win" or real out in sight.
And no, I don't see many who support the war out doing things to help the vets. Maybe I am just not seeing it, but it is so sad, all of it.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:12 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Justine Cooper wrote:And if you are so concerned with whether or not Saddam was training terrorist to kill Americans (which I still don't see proof of but think that is a ploy to detract from the fact that nuclear weapons weren't found so we have to find something to convince Americans why we were there) then you should be concerned with the fact that the terrorists that killed Americans on 911 actually trained right here in the USA. How did that happen? Some may say we were the country that trained terrorists. Doesn't that put chills down your spine?
yes... Especially since they were here for so long and went "undetected".. If you want, go to PBS.org and do a search under the word
Salman Pak There is no smoking gun in any of the search returns. And none of the information presented (that supports my theory) has been verified. It is just interesting reading material.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:31 pm
by Stephen Eisel
Justine Cooper wrote:I would bet a kidney that the majority would rather be with their kids and family and don't want to be there and some didn't know they would end up there. I would bet that some are seeing things that you may never hear of and wondering what the heck are we really doing there. And I bet there is a smaller number who are patriotic and doing what they feel is right, what has been told to them by the government. God Bless them all but I don't see how a soldier's decision to go fight there justifies this war and all the deaths and destruction that has followed, with no "win" or real out in sight.
And no, I don't see many who support the war out doing things to help the vets. Maybe I am just not seeing it, but it is so sad, all of it.
I can only speak from my own personal experiences. I post on a couple of other boards that have current and or former arm services personnel that served in Iraq. (some actually posting from Iraq) Yes, they definitely miss their loved ones. But I get the feeling that some of these men and women feel very passionate about what they are doing Iraq (beyond what there mission is). You also bring up a great point. Supporting our troops is very easy to do and simple. Anyone can write a letter, or send a care package. They also appreciate gift cards for their family.
Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:59 pm
by Justine Cooper
I am sure many do feel passionate and in some cases would have to being the sacrifice they are making. I feel so overwhelmed sometimes because there is so much need out there and sometimes you want to do something but not sure what. There is a website coming per the LO (Lakewoodcares) that will consolidate all of the social services that Lakewood provides. Many will be surprised at how many groups in this one city there are doing wonderful things! But as of yet there had not one place to go to, to find a service that you need, for yourself or a family.
Stephen, Maybe you would start a group on there for local families with a member serving in Iraq or Afghanistan so local people here can directly help. Some may need help with child care, some gift certificates. There are a lot of people that even have gift certificates that were given to them just sitting in a drawer. Every little bit helps.
