The Observation Deck

Mike Zannoni wrote:
The beauty, fairness and economy of Meg's plan is self-evident to so many people here, where many of Lakewood's concerned and knowledgeable people come to communicate, that to not consider it as a valid idea is mind blowing. It would make one wonder.

I repeat, you are missing a couple of very critical factors.

The schools CANNOT compel the city to do a "land swap" or vice versa. They are two separate entities. The value of the various properties is totally up in the air. How much is Kaufman Park worth? How much is the Lincoln property worth? Grant? How many years will that take to figure out.

The Lakewood plan the state facilities board has been working with and negotiating for 8 years did not presume the construction of a giant school on a new site on land the schools dont own. That would involve going back to the state and completely reworking the deal.

When did the Warren Rd property EVER get considered? Thats NOT a school building. Where do the admin offices go?

Lincoln is the single elementary school in Lakewood with an excellent rating (I was going by last year's report card on the enrollment. I was off by 25 kids, Danielle. Shoot me)
The parents are fiercely proud and protective, as they should be, and THEY will present a political obstacle. I know whereof I speak. If you want to do class warfare with the Lincoln vs Grant vs Roosevelt parents, go ahead. But that means those thousand kids, including mine, will have to keep going to class in the LHS trailers while Lakewood has another civic battle.
Why presume that the Lincoln and Grant properties are worth ANYTHING? If the schools and city want to swap property, sell the two empty schools we already have first?

The tragedy will be if this gets delayed and we lose state funding because a couple of people want to "think outside the box" When your playing with my tax dollars folks, I DON'T want you "outside the box" I want you firmlly IN it. I want you playing by the rules and respecting a process.

One criticism of Lakewood that, I think, has some validity, is that it is very congested, and doesn't have many open spaces. Of course, Kaufman field is one of those few open spaces, usable by anyone in the community.

Now we have a proposal to close two of the elementary schools that draw praise from the people who use them, and build a new school in Kaufman field, apparently sending some students from Lincoln and Grant to other schools, and the balance to the school in Kaufman park.

Apparently the land on which Lincoln and Grant stand will not be made an open space, but will be paved, in one way or another. I suspect all the space in Kaufman field is proposed to be put under control of the BofE, and will thus become less, at least, available to the community at large.

So the net result will be that we will destroy some open space, of which we have too little, while gaining no open space. I think they call that a net loss for the community.

The idea that this scheme will create a new office tower in Lakewood, drawing thousands of workers and solving our income problems, is divorced from reality. There is already plenty of space available in the area, but no one is building! Perhaps, since we are just dreaming, we should dream of a space port rather than an office tower.

Dee

Not advocating for it or against it. I do think it is a good idea, but you are correct there might be road blocks as there were in the Peninsula. I just want to make sure that roadblocks are real, not made up like in the peninsula.

While this might sound much like a fantasy and something that could never be done, it is not that far off base. This comes from hours of speaking with people that would be involved in the process.

To be honest it was merely thrown out over coffee by me over a period of a couple weeks while Meg was writing the idea up.

The Lakewood plan the state facilities board has been working with and negotiating for 8 years did not presume the construction of a giant school on a new site on land the schools dont own. That would involve going back to the state and completely reworking the deal.

What is the deal that has been in the works for 8 years? What is the Phase III Committee even considering then?

When did the Warren Rd property EVER get considered? Thats NOT a school building. Where do the admin offices go?

The BOE has been considering moving for sometime. One plan had them taking over the old Regos, another had them taking over the Post Office and that moving to Regos, another has them moving into the top floor of a Lakewood Office building. When Jennifer Hooper was running MainStreet in its first year they wanted to build a pocket park there. The LO had committeed money to the project until we learned the BOE was probably being torn down, and the park wiped out. So the BOE property has always been in play.

Lincoln is the single elementary school in Lakewood with an excellent rating (I was going by last year's report card on the enrollment. I was off by 25 kids, Danielle. Shoot me)
The parents are fiercely proud and protective, as they should be, and THEY will present a political obstacle. I know whereof I speak. If you want to do class warfare with the Lincoln vs Grant vs Roosevelt parents, go ahead. But that means those thousand kids, including mine, will have to keep going to class in the LHS trailers while Lakewood has another civic battle.
Why presume that the Lincoln and Grant properties are worth ANYTHING? If the schools and city want to swap property, sell the two empty schools we already have first?

Dee, read the letters from the parents at Grant. Look at the faces of the alumni and parents from McKinley(they are still making McKinley Shirts!) I think we are all proud of the work the schools are doing. However also look at the class size, the number of first year Lakewood students, and which school leads in performance, as measured by improvement, one school is miles ahead of the rest. I would have to think that Grant and the BOE are some of the most valuable property the schools have. Right in the heart of the new "DowntowN" district, right off of I-90, it would be a dream come true for the right company.

The tragedy will be if this gets delayed and we lose state funding because a couple of people want to "think outside the box" When your playing with my tax dollars folks, I DON'T want you "outside the box" I want you firmlly IN it. I want you playing by the rules and respecting a process.

The tragedy is "I." Look we now find out Federal money was available in the stimulus package to build schools. Had we waited maybe the burden on Lakewood residents would not have had to pay for Harding, Harrison, Garfield, and the rebuild on Horace Mann and Emerson. The tragedy would be rushing into something that is not the best that we as a city could do. However it would seem you have much more background information that I. "8 years of planning"? I know how much the world has changed in 8 years, I know how much the city has changed in 8 years.

Will

You bring up interesting points, there is no park to speak of near Lincoln, perhaps that could be turned into a park like the park at Madison and Hillard. I know of no public space down there, so the entire city could benefit from something like greenspace there. I know during the election greenspace was a huge issue, so to swap greenspace might be a good idea. I mean to hear some speak of this it is like a private school to go with their private beach/park. City has been working with LEAF on community gardens, I know of none in that area.

As far as offices, and office space it does not really come into play, as it would be an office with one maybe two tenants, all in the same field. That said, I had the opportunity to speak with a member of the Grow Lakewood Committee the other day. I want to say first I really appreciated the hard work done by the Grow Lakewood Committee and what came out of it. It was refreshing to hear that large retail spaces were finally seen as a dead end for this community. Remember this came a year after the "WestEnd Debalce" as some call it. They presented that offices were much more sane, and could be a future for Lakewood. With the options of changing them out at will and reconfiguring they had the best chance for Lakewood.

Of course that was nearly 5 years ago, and what a 5 years they have been. The economy tanks. So there is less need. When I worked for BP America, they were so proud of the $5 million dollar video conferencing room, where we would all gather to speak with London, France, Anchorage etc. Now that feature is built into every laptop for free. But even more importantly is the advent of collaborative software like what AGS does. That allows people to work from home, the park, vacation, and no one even know where you are. If you can get to WiFi, you can be working in a virtual office. This sort of software is on the climb and much in demand and making offices as obsolete as the need for large retail areas.

So one could start to wonder, are offices the wave of the future?

At this point I would normally go back to the Visionary Alignment for Lakewood, now over 5 years old that saw all of this coming. The financial crisis, dying retail and offices, the closing of schools and churches, the need for food security, water security, home based business fulfillment zones, that feed recession proof businesses, oh and idea that would have found every member of the city 4 times more wealthier than now. But while we fight to save the Beck, we let that person leak away!

FWIW

Dee Martinez wrote:The schools CANNOT compel the city to do a "land swap" or vice versa. They are two separate entities. The value of the various properties is totally up in the air. How much is Kaufman Park worth? How much is the Lincoln property worth? Grant? How many years will that take to figure out.

Kaufman Park was recently appraised for about $2 million dollars. It doesn't take years to figure it out it takes a few hours. If both parties are own board it takes another few hours to do a deal.

The State is not going to pay to remodel both Grant and Lincoln. If we choose to keep them both the cost of one remodel is on Lakewood. It seems likely that one of those schools are going to be closed. Were'nt you the one who wondered who was going to pay for two schools if the State was only going to pay for one?

The current Kaufman Park foot print with some additions could accomodate a new school and enough new space that would actually make the green space and park area even larger. With a little immagination it could be a real education/entertainment/city center.

The current Lincoln space could be a new park.

The current site of the BOE and Grant is in the center of what was (20 years ago) supposed to be the Lakewood City Center. What is now Marc's Plaza was supposed to be about 4 times as large with apartments, movie theater etc. After the City gave away the land to the developer it was discovered that all that was possible was Marc's Plaza.

There is still some potential to build something great.

The bottom line is that either Grant or Lincoln is going to close. Why choose one or the other when their is a chance to build something wonderful?

Waiting around for stimulus money is a waste of time. All that Lakewood is going to get out of Obama is higher taxes.

We are on our own.

Wow….. Ok, so I wanted to get involved in this tread earlier but time got away from me and I was unable, which is a shame because it has been quite the conversation. I am glad to hear that many of the points I was going to make have already been covered. Its good to see that everyone is thinking and questioning rather than accepting something just at face value. Things can always be changed and improved. I do still have a few comments, and I will try to keep my repeating thoughts to a minimum.

To start, when I read about the peninsula idea when it was first introduced I looked at it and thought “nice dreamâ€￾ but never gave it any sort of real thought. It was too big and impractical to consider. It is a shame this is being compared to that since I see this could have some real potential. Now don’t get me wrong, I have a huge passion for history and building conservation, and therefore do not like to see any of these buildings go; however if we are trying to look at a realistic plan to solve the issue of 2 instead of 3 schools, I think this might be our best bet. Although we are getting to the end of the three phases we do still have the whole last one to go, so although there isn’t a lot of time, there is time enough to consider this.

Now with the issues. The one main concern I had when I first read the article that bothered me that no one was taking in to consideration was “what happens to the park, the green space?â€￾ I am thankful to Will for bringing this forward before I could. I like the idea of putting a school at Kauffman but I am not ok with loosing the park. The baseball field has a game played on it almost every night in the summer. What happens when its gone? Now I know some of you have discussed a school with a baseball field, track and endless green space. Now I know there is a lot of space at Kauffman, but where exactly do you think all this is going to go? For one the school would probably be built somewhere in the baseball field so there goes that idea, plus you are going to need to expand a parking lot for teachers, a drop off area for students and a play ground. All of that is possible with a little bit of left over space, but not enough to including a baseball field and a track. The only way this would work is if the city sold the parking they have behind Drugmart with the park property, but I still don’t think that’s enough. Also, even if they are able to do all that there is still the problem of access. The park is city property and there for open to the public any time during any day (except after 11 at night). This new space under the control of the Board and the Rec will not be as freely open. It will be closed during school days and limited pretty much at all other times based on the Rec departments say.

Now if we swap land between Kauffman and the Board, as many have mentioned, I do think we are going to run into land cost differences (this is all accepting the large assumption that the city, let alone the board, is willing to consider this plan). However if we can get passed this problem I do not see why we should not do it (except for the historian in me that cries at the loss of both the Board and Rec buildings). Also provided whatever is built there when the land is sold to some developer isn’t more wasted office or retail space that ends up sitting empty.

Now this leaves the board without a home. I like the idea of putting them in Lincoln as apposed to in the bottom floor of some (ugly I’m sure) office building on Warren. It saves the building and not to mention money since there doesn’t have to be much in the way of construction to make it a functional office building. I do think this is also a better alternative then knocking down Lincoln to build ‘new larger homes’ as an experiment to see if the idea should be expanded in Lakewood. Being in the midst of a housing crisis when nothing is selling, and people are downsizing rather then upgrading their houses, I think talking about any sort of housing development is ludicrous a possibly suicidal. The park idea is an ok one, since this answers the problem of the missing green space, but only partly. The property at Lincoln is only a fraction of that at Kaufman, and although it would start of as a park, I think eventually some developer would talk the city into giving up the prime real-estate on Clifton. Putting the board in the current spot solves 2 problems but still eaves the question, what about the park?

The last thing I want to say is in regards to what Gary said about the proposed new school and its proximity to railroad tracks. Now I did my student teaching in a school that was maybe 200 yards from railroad tracks. Every time a train went by (which was 90 times a day there) every teacher would have to pause. There was no point in trying to teach because you couldn’t hear your self let alone expect the students to hear you. Now I know Jim posted pictures at Garfield and the fact that they are right by the tracks. So I guess I would say not to consider that a breaking point since Garfield does it, however I would suggest talking to teachers at Garfield and hear what they have to say about the trains and any interference/interactions it plays in their teaching.

Sorry for the length!


p.s. What exactly was the mistake that every one is talking about that was supposedly made with Garfield and its location? Are we complaining that they didn’t tare it down and sell it off to some developer? And do what with the students? I can see it now students attending AMC Middle School.

Bill Call wrote:

Dee Martinez wrote:The schools CANNOT compel the city to do a "land swap" or vice versa. They are two separate entities. The value of the various properties is totally up in the air. How much is Kaufman Park worth? How much is the Lincoln property worth? Grant? How many years will that take to figure out.

Kaufman Park was recently appraised for about $2 million dollars. It doesn't take years to figure it out it takes a few hours. If both parties are own board it takes another few hours to do a deal.

The State is not going to pay to remodel both Grant and Lincoln. If we choose to keep them both the cost of one remodel is on Lakewood. It seems likely that one of those schools are going to be closed. Were'nt you the one who wondered who was going to pay for two schools if the State was only going to pay for one?

The current Kaufman Park foot print with some additions could accomodate a new school and enough new space that would actually make the green space and park area even larger. With a little immagination it could be a real education/entertainment/city center.

The current Lincoln space could be a new park.

The current site of the BOE and Grant is in the center of what was (20 years ago) supposed to be the Lakewood City Center. What is now Marc's Plaza was supposed to be about 4 times as large with apartments, movie theater etc. After the City gave away the land to the developer it was discovered that all that was possible was Marc's Plaza.

There is still some potential to build something great.

The bottom line is that either Grant or Lincoln is going to close. Why choose one or the other when their is a chance to build something wonderful?

Waiting around for stimulus money is a waste of time. All that Lakewood is going to get out of Obama is higher taxes.

We are on our own.

Why do we need "something great"? We need a couple of elementary schools remodeled!
The BOE/Grant property was NEVER the domain of the City. It is NOT city property. It belongs to the schools. I never recall a single discussion regarding the Lakewood Town Center and the school board. How could it be?
The state is going to kick in a share for an overall project that involves SIX elementary schools. Its up to Lakewood to decide which six. The state couldnt care less whether its Grant, Lincoln, or Roosevelt that closes.
To Jim O regarding McKinley. I know you consider yourself part of the "McKinely Mafia" but right now its just another empty storefront.
If the BOE had any kind of offer for that site, wouldnt they sell it? If McKinley and Taft were so valualbe why wouldnt they sell and avoid having to put an operating increase out there?

Dee Martinez wrote:Why do we need "something great"?

There are lots of great ideas in this thread, and ironically, I find myself nodding agreement with some people here whom I normally spar with on other threads.

I do believe that, wherever you might want to put it, that there is an excellent case to be made for building a new school.

Old schools have many potentially dangerous issues- from asbestos to wiring and plumbing concerns that can be problematic for children's health and safety issues, if not properly monitored and managed. Those old buildings can look cool and nostalgic, but can be nightmares for disability access, traffic issues, and, as has already been pointed out, present-day proximity concerns.

New schools are a great way to say to those outside of the city.."Hey, we have confidence in ourselves, our children, and our future. We want nothing but the best for our children, and for ourselves".

Of course, there are many vested interests involved with big decisions like these, and a Kaufman move would be extremely complex.

I too am puzzled by the Garfield aspersion. As a retired teacher and a Garfield volunteer, I think that school did virtually EVERYTHING right, on the whole. It's a great place for children to learn and develop.

I think too, that we need to keep a nod to historic issues. For example, the Board of Education building is the old Grant School, a 19th century "old school house" that, if remodeled as such, could be an attraction in that potential future park area that they're discussing.

Then there's the Summit tunnel- a link from Detroit Ave. to the lake, believed by some to have been the last link to the Underground Railroad. Although the tunnel itself is largely gone, it actually ran (appropriately) under part of the school named for Abraham Lincoln.

Ah, History...

Hopefully we can tap into more and more of that as we try to build and rebuild Lakewood's legacy....

Dee Martinez wrote: Why do we need "something great"? We need a couple of elementary schools remodeled!

To Jim O regarding McKinley. I know you consider yourself part of the "McKinely Mafia" but right now its just another empty storefront.

Dee

What is the McKinley Mafia? I consider myself a graduate of McKinley, nothing more. I also consider myself a graduate of Horace Mann and LHS, nothing more. I have not been to a reunion or "official event" in decades and decades. I have shunned any and all "awards or moments" While I am truly grateful for the education the schools gave me, I have zero romance in any buildings or for that matter teachers, or fellow students. I feel people put way to much emphasis on "school days" and "school buildings".

What is the McKinley Mafia?

As far as the price of McKinley? Ever try to get a price? I have. Right now I know of two schools that would be interested in it. I also know of at least one charter school that would like to take a run at it. But this is just talk. But try to get a price. I have had no luck myself.

Why do we need "something great"?

Why indeed? Lets doing everything "good enough." Lets work on just getting by, why would we need anything great in Lakewood, why even aim for greatness, let's just get by. Why do we need A+ when we can get by with C-. I cannot even fathom this level of underachieving.

To let anyone MAKE US sell our children, our school system and our city short should cause one to immediately wonder why.

Dee, we should have coffee sometime, on me. I get the feeling you completely misunderstand me, my motives and how I operate. But then most do. I am terrible at conveying my thoughts and attitudes.

McKinley Mafia?:roll:

.

I do like Gary’s idea of renovating the old Grant school back to what it was like originally and turning the rest of the land, including the current Grant school, into a park. This would partly make up for the loss of the park at Kaufman and would then be city property (provided there is a land swap) and there for could be done. I would also like to see the East Rockport School saved as well and maybe also renovated back to close to its original state. However, despite all these nice ideas, dreams and aspirations for plans like this they are just that. Even if there is a land swap and the city gets the Board property the last thing they are going to do with it is make it into a park. The land is worth too much and has too much “potentialâ€￾ to leave as a park with historical buildings and heritage.

Someday people will look back and try and find the remnants of the history in this city and throughout the country and be at a loss to find it anywhere. The only place they will be able to find the old beautiful houses, the historic churches and schools from the turn of the century and long before will be in a land fill. And this is all done for what? In the name of progress? To make room for more commercial development that will eventually sit empty like so many other places in the city? Has any culture ever benefited from forgetting and destroying there past?

But I digress. Anyways, it sounds like a nice idea, but unfortunately, for monetary reasons (why does everything always have to come down to money?) it is not a practical idea. So perhaps we could just renovate the current buildings for commercial space and turn the currant Grant school into a park (unless there is someone REALLY willing to buy that ugly school for other, useful, purposes).

Ever been out to Burton?

Their pioneer village is a magnetic draw for reenactments, festivals, and all kinds of special social events, including old-time music and all sorts of nostalgic fun.

Here in Lakewood, between the old 19th century Grant and the original East Rockport buildings on Warren, you have the nucleus of a grand little nostalgia park, with potential parking available and possibilities galore, with a bit of work, a couple of log cabins, and some volunteer elbow grease perhaps.

No criticism at all intended to the already active and engaged Lakewood Historical Society, but with their Nicholson and Old Stone House properties, and their vintage ball field already in use, here's an opportunity for them to go even farther with a center-city town square concept that could work well, if the "new" Grant was razed in exchange for a new school located elsewhere.

Nostalgia sells, and we can stand to sell more of it around here. In my home town of Franklin Pa. Their main drag looks as if it stepped out of a movie set.

Look at Medina's town square.

Look at "Rocky's" Riverwalk...

Look at Frostville, out by Olmsted, and the crowds it draws...

'Course if all else fails, maybe we could at least get Bearden's to come back there. At least we'd get a decent milkshake out of that deal...

"Course as well, you WOULD expect an appeal for nostalgia from a banjo picker, wouldn't you?

Back to the banjo....

I do appreciate the ideas and commitment to Lakewoods history and aehstehics (sp?)
but I have to make my point again.
Monday morning, once spring break is over, 6000 kids will wake up and have to go to math class.
They need a place to go.

Architecture, history, land swaps, building "something great" are all admirable ideas.
However we are now in the 9th inning and someone comes out of the blue and says that instead of playing baseball we should play soccer.

The BOE has a very serious decision in front of it. Close a school and which one if you do? No matter what they decide it will be painful. The BOE is going to have to work very hard at arriving at a consensus and then selling it to the public. Pie-in-the-sky stuff like this is just a distraction from the real task at hand.
Daydreams are good I like to do it too but theres a time to daydream and a time to get to work.

QUOTE:

"Daydreams are good I like to do it too but there's a time to daydream and a time to get to work."

My teachers told me that one from the first grade on.

The advice never fully took with me.

Back to the banjo...

If you were a teacher Mr Rice you did plenty of hard work.

Dee,

The secret, I think to all of this, is to be able to combine dreams with hard work.

That's the first part...

The second would be to figure out how to enjoy what one does.

The world needs both dreamers and do-ers. Gifted indeed would be the individuals who can do both.

Back to the banjo....

Where I can prop up the old legs on a stool, cover my eyes with my cap, pluck some tune, and actually be working at the same time.

Really, honest.