Attn: Zip Code 44107 - 413 Foreclosure Cases Filed in 2007

[Valerie Molinski]

sharon, while I dont disagree with you that a lot of people were misled and there were some shady practices going on...

there comes a point where people must accept personal responsibility. When I have messed up where I didnt ask the right questions and I get burned, I chalk it up to a lesson learned and mitigate the losses on my own. I don't expect others to bail me out.

[sharon kinsella]

I'm not asking anyone to bail them out and neither are they.

It's the Banks and the Mortgage firms that are asking for federal help.

What I am very disappointed about, and I probably shouldn't be, is the utter lack of compassion for the people who've been hurt here. But I shouldn't really be surprised.

The people affected by these issues are obviously should be blamed for being fooled. They deserve to lose everything.

I don't even know why I try.

[Tim Liston]

Here's what I know. Either the lender was at fault, or the borrower was at fault, or both were at fault. Maybe also the real estate agent. But not the taxpayers and not future borrowers. My children and I were not a party to these transactions. There was a closing table, we were not at the closing table, we did not sign any documents, we did not promise to repay the loan, or any part of it. We were not fraudulent or naïve. We might have been at a soccer game, we might have been at work or school. Who knows. But we did not take on a repayment obligation.

So let Congress or the courts or whoever figure out whether the lender or the borrower, or both, should be held accountable. But I for one am tired of having myself and my children held accountable for the actions of others. It happens time and time again and I'm getting pretty sick of it. And so is Bill, so is Will, maybe Valerie, and so are many others.

I know by posting that I will be considered insensitive. If growing increasing frustrated at bailout after bailout makes me insensitive, so be it. But it's gotten to the point where folks believe they can just do whatever they want and not be held accountable. You can cheat on your taxes and someone will take on the IRS for you. You can run the credit cards up and someone will help you repudiate the debt. There's millions in unpaid property taxes in Lakewood and the rest of us make up the shortfall. It just has to end.

[Justine Cooper]

You try Sharon because you have seen the inside of a mortgage broker firm. There are some who probably believe that your experience was an isolate incidence. But of all the fields I have been in in my life, and I have dabbled in many, the mortgage industry became filled with the lowest, least ethical, slimiest individuals I have ever had the displeasure to witness.

They give all the educated and properly trained (by real banks) mortgage brokers bad names. But they were the slimiest individuals I ever saw or knew could exist, from the brokers, to the non-conforming lenders, to some of the unscrupulous appraisers and title companies that "made" loans work, knowing the borrower would never be able to swing it. They lied, falsified appraisals, all the while schmoozing each other with big lunches, dinners, incentives to do business with each other. They smoked the best cigars, drove the nicest cars, and swindled as many people as they could. They had no proper education, and all the while our government knew this.

Our government took money from the lobbyists to keep this "dream" alive. They sold out our country. Yes this has many layers, many victims, many vultures, all the way up to the top. This COULD have been prevented if laws were in place BEFORE the crisis hit. You didn't have to be Sylvia Brown to know it was coming. Accountants need degrees and licenses. Doctors need degrees. Lawyers need higher education. Hell I just got a letter saying we could request the credentials of any teacher in our kids' schools to make sure they were "highly" qualified.


But this country allowed the mortgage brokers to open up on every corner, as well as the title companies, and others, with NOTHING in terms of training, schooling, oaths, ethics. Nothing. The ones who ultimately control housing values and people's biggest investments in this country.

That does not negate the people who became greedy, or delusional, or hopeful, that they could "own" the American dream and get in over their head. Some were wrong and some were victims. But overall, the devastation has wiped out this country as we once knew it. And our business as a country should have been running our OWN country, not trying to run another.

[Justine Cooper]

Here's what I know. Either the lender was at fault, or the borrower was at fault, or both were at fault. Maybe also the real estate agent. But not the taxpayers and not future borrowers. My children and I were not a party to these transactions. There was a closing table, we were not at the closing table, we did not sign any documents, we did not promise to repay the loan, or any part of it. We were not fraudulent or naïve. We might have been at a soccer game, we might have been at work or school. Who knows. But we did not take on a repayment obligation.

So let Congress or the courts or whoever figure out whether the lender or the borrower, or both, should be held accountable. But I for one am tired of having myself and my children held accountable for the actions of others. It happens time and time again and I'm getting pretty sick of it. And so is Bill, so is Will, maybe Valerie, and so are many others.

I know by posting that I will be considered insensitive. If growing increasing frustrated at bailout after bailout makes me insensitive, so be it. But it's gotten to the point where folks believe they can just do whatever they want and not be held accountable. You can cheat on your taxes and someone will take on the IRS for you. You can run the credit cards up and someone will help you repudiate the debt. There's millions in unpaid property taxes in Lakewood and the rest of us make up the shortfall. It just has to end.

Don't assume that knowing the whole truth about the mortgage crisis in any way means those of us want to pay for the mess. This hurts us all. I am sick of it too, watching people claim bankruptcy after they lived high off the hog and drove very nice cars. When you or your spouse works two jobs to make things work and you sacrifice and drive old cars, it gets old. When you are 40 and waitressing again so you can get through school to provide a better future for your kids, you don't have sympathy for the self-indulgent or the ones even on welfare that keep having kids and won't work ONE job. It all gets old. Even the insurance company telling me why we have to pay more in insurance because of "other" peoples catastrophes. But the bottom line is, we will pay, whether we like it or not. We are all going to pay. Which is why it is so devastating that it was allowed to happen. And if you want to blame someone, you need to keep going higher up.

[Valerie Molinski]

The people affected by these issues are obviously should be blamed for being fooled. They deserve to lose everything.

I don't even know why I try.

That is a HUGE leap, and it is disingenuous to assume that we don't have compassion for those people. I feel horrible for people losing their homes and especially those with children. But as a parent, I am obligated to provide a stable environment for them and do whatever I can to that end... whether it is sticking to a monthly grocery budget, not going out drinking every night with my friends, or educating myself enough to understand everything I sign before taking on a monumental debt/mortgage that could destroy my family's lives if I default on my payments.

[David Anderson]

I, for one, see both sides of the story. The reaction represented in the last two pages of this discussion resembles that which followed The Plain Dealer’s series two weeks ago. Some buyers put blinders on. Some were blinded.

However, while we debate as to who is to blame, a worthy conversation to have, empty decaying houses sit on our streets.

Washington National Bank became the owner of this house (link below) in July of 2007. The building it is literally falling apart as I type. There seems to be a tax balance due of $1,528.64.

http://www.realtor.com/search/listingde ... 149#Detail

Please look at this link and put your “Benevolent Dictator For A Dayâ€Â￾ hat on. What would you do with this and the 621 other bank owned properties in Lakewood/44107, many of which are delinquent and decaying?

[Dee Martinez]

Im not arguing that many buyers weren't irresponsible, or that they should be able to dodge a day of reckoning. I endured too many tours of friends luxury homes while I was hanging onto my old joint in Lakewood. I knew they were living on the edge.

The point is, because the conditions werent adequately disclosed, all of MY investments are in the tank. EVERYTHING I own, save the 4% savings accounts, has in one way or another been hit by this crisis. Their misery is MY misery. If the lender really looked into Mrs Homebuyers eyes and said, "do you realize your monthly payment could go up $800 in 3 years?" that would have queered a lot of deals and saved the world a lot of grief.

Do you understand what Im saying? I never bought a subprime mortgage but Im paying the price for the whole house of cards. Chances are, so are you. Your paying a price for being a smug "daddy"

[Dee Martinez]

[Justine Cooper]

Dee and David,
Well stated in few words. I tried really really hard not to get into the blame game since it is not going to help us but it gets so hard to see some with their own blinders on, not realizing HOW this really came to be.

I am hoping for answers David from the city for our town. I don't have any.
Dee, I lost a friend after her comment to me "Why are you buying again in Lakewood? I heard that is the next inner city". Meanwhile, as she lived in Avon Lake, in a new home, new houses, new EVERYTHING she claimed bankruptcy and was late on her taxes. There you are. Oh right before the bankruptcy went through the mediator didn't want it to go through because they were driving $30,000 and $45,000 cars so they had those repossessed and "settled" for $20,000 cars. Yea it gets old. But eventually, I do believe it pays off for those who take care of their business and do whatever it takes to make the bills.

[ryan costa]

60 minutes had a good story on explaining the subprime mortgage crisis.

It seems Ohio's stagnant economy have spared most of the region from wildly speculative increases in property values. It is a different story in California.

They had these bright IT workers of the 21st century economy. They bought a 2 bedroom mobile home for about 300 grand. They were going to refinance at a fixed rate mortgage, but they had to wait for the property value to appreciate a few ten thousand grand before they could do that. They couldn't do that, then the monthly rates went up.

They only did what everyone in the market said was a good idea. People who question the market were pessimists. People who questioned the market were just people who weren't getting ahead.

[Will Brown]

It is certainly an oversimplification to assert that the entire mortgage industry is either crooked or not crooked, but some people apparently believe that to be the case.

Certainly some loan originators falsified documents, such as appraisals, and if the papers are correct, they are being prosecuted for those crimes. Perhaps all employees of those companies that engaged in such activity should be jailed, including trainees who were aware of the criminal activity, but did not report it.

However, I've lived a long time and formed the opinion that few, if any, of us bother reading a contract before signing it. My belief it that an ARM contract tells you what your current interest rate is, how long it is guaranteed, and how much it can be increased after the guaranteed rate period annually, and over the life of the loan. They don't tell you how much your increased payment will be, because at the time of the loan origination, they don't know what the cost of money will be in the future. So if you sign a contract saying that in x years, your interest rate can increase by up to y points, and thereafter by z points over the term of the loan, and don't take the time to calculate what those increases will be, you probably shouldn't be handling your own money. I personally think that if you get yourself into such a situation, you have only yourself to blame, and I don't think any part of government should bail you, and your lender, out. Is the solution that the government give everyone who wants to take out a loan an economics IQ test, and only those who pass could sign a contract? Should we have all contracts reviewed by some bureaucrat (who got a job by being related to a politician after he was unable to get a job anywhere else) who would approve or disapprove the loan based on his evaluation of your financial talent and resources? Why just homes; a car now costs more than my first house, and auto financing is subject to the same risk of fraud or financial foolishness.

This loan business is beyond the scope of a local forum, anyway. When Cleveland tried to impose local conditions on mortgages, the industry simply concluded that it would cost too much to tool up for those local condition, given consideration of the limited market in Cleveland, and stopped writing loans in Cleveland. The state legislature concluded, correctly, in my opinion, that allowing fragmentation of the loan industry would drive up the costs of a loan for everyone, and ended the practice. So this is, largely, a state problem. I know some people will have a tantrum, squealing that the loan industry made political contributions to get this result, but the mere fact of political contributions does not necessarily mean legislation is flawed. Depending on our personal persuasion, we tend to think that donations to a candidate we don't like are evil, while those to our favored candidate are noble. In any event, every politician takes contributions.

I think we should stick to the subject of how to deal with the abandoned, or near abandoned, homes in Lakewood, and not waste our energy on a subject (the mortgage industry and its customers) that we can do nothing about. This thread has strayed badly, including, if I recall correctly, a poster that tried to relate it to a toilet seat bought by the pentagon!

[David Anderson]

I believe David Lay provided a connection to a blog/discussion a few pages back. One comment suggested that tough ordinances be passed that allow municipalities to force the hand of all owners of decaying and property tax delinquent buildings.

Do ordinances exist in Lakewood that give banks and others who own decaying and delinquent buildings a strict timeline - say six months - to bring the building up to code and current on the taxes or the city can repossess and auction the property to a buyer willing to do bring the house to code and be responsible for taxes going forward? The proceeds can cover back taxes and the city keeps any balance.

I would imagine, if constitutional, such an ordinance would greatly harm the ability of a bank to sell foreclosed property because any potential buyer could simply wait for the city auction. What the heck, though, these houses aren't selling now. Maybe any balance could go back to the bank or previous owner.

Does anyone know what's in Lakewood's books now?

Again, I think this listing is a great example. http://www.realtor.com/search/listingde ... 149#Detail

[Justine Cooper]

It is certainly an oversimplification to assert that the entire mortgage industry is either crooked or not crooked, but some people apparently believe that to be the case.

Certainly some loan originators falsified documents, such as appraisals, and if the papers are correct, they are being prosecuted for those crimes. Perhaps all employees of those companies that engaged in such activity should be jailed, including trainees who were aware of the criminal activity, but did not report it.

First, NO one said ALL originators. Typically brokers that worked in banks never did this, and weren't allowed to do it, they were governed by that bank. It is when independent brokers opened without any governing that this was allowed to occur. Allowed. Because I took a job in the 90's with a Non-Conforming lender, before any of this came to light or even before many brokers came into business, I got to witness the various brokers as I tried to sell them on the company I worked for, to put their non-conforming loan through them! THey are now out of business and as I learned the real business of what they were all about, I quit. But not before I saw many, many unscrupulous people, mortgage, appraisers, and title. Go research how many mortgage brokers, appraisers, and title companies opened from the mid 90's until last year!

The fact that you say "trainees who worked in those companies should be jailed" may be the funniest thing I ever read, if it were not so disturbing and so missing the real picture. Who, pray tell, would they have reported them too? If you were listening to what Sharon was saying THERE WAS NO ONE TO TELL, NO LAWS IN PLACE, NO ONE THAT CARED AT THAT POINT. They could charge AS many points as they wished and "hidden" fees that could add up to any amount they could get away with, and the homeowners who were not informed and didn't see the "hidden" fees got whacked on refinances. I am not even talking about purchases. The refinance business "get some money out of your house" with overinflated appraisals that brokers KNEW where to go to get, has been just as devastating to this foreclosure crisis as buying new homes, or probably even more. One reason may be ARMS but another is when the "new" mortgage came in much higher because of the money taken out AND the fees added, some couldn't afford. Another reason is that if you borrowed $30,000 on a mortgage you already had of say $150,000, and you suddenly had to move for some reason, you now can't sell your house for the $180,000 you owed because the appraisal was jacked up. Then the housing market fell, so now your house is worth $155,000 but you owe $180. The refinances hurt more than purchases.

Yea I know, they shouldn't have borrowed against their house. You didn't. I didn't. But many did, some of their own stupidness, and some talked into it in many deceptive practices. We can argue till the cows come home and it still doesn't change where we are at today.

[Dee Martinez]

Of course, it wasnt just the individual home buyer who got burned by their own stupidity, naivete or greed in this whole thing. Big time "sophisticated" investors, including insitutional investors, public pension funds, etc., got caught too.
Thats why every sector of the economy everywhere in the world is reeling over this.
Theyre the ones most likely to get relief in any govt bailout. As always if your going to be stupid, its better to be RICH and stupid.