New Restaurant on Detroit Ave.

[sharon kinsella]

Dave - I see your point.

However, I've walked up to people in Range Rovers, and Lexus's emptying their ashtrays in Marcs parking lot. I told them to carry plastic bags in their car and I didn't appreciate having to live in their trash.

I've seen people in Cadillac's throwing McDonalds wrappers out their windows.

Yes, idiots will always be with us.

But, if we don't talk to our neighbors or other city residents, if we make assumptions based on differences, we lose the opportunity to see our commonalities.

Jim O'Brien always talks about sitting on his porch and walking around town, and he's right. We can't solve anything by sitting alone and making assumptions, or just sitting with our cronies rehashing the same old thing.
The world is a different place than it was 20 years ago. I venture to say it's going to be a different place 20 years from now. In order for that to be good place we have to work on the issues now.

If we want Lakewood to be a better place, we have to be better citizens ourselves, and work together as a community.

[Dave Sharosky]

Dave - I see your point.

However, I've walked up to people in Range Rovers, and Lexus's emptying their ashtrays in Marcs parking lot. I told them to carry plastic bags in their car and I didn't appreciate having to live in their trash.

I've seen people in Cadillac's throwing McDonalds wrappers out their windows.

Yes, idiots will always be with us.

But, if we don't talk to our neighbors or other city residents, if we make assumptions based on differences, we lose the opportunity to see our commonalities.

Jim O'Brien always talks about sitting on his porch and walking around town, and he's right. We can't solve anything by sitting alone and making assumptions, or just sitting with our cronies rehashing the same old thing.
The world is a different place than it was 20 years ago. I venture to say it's going to be a different place 20 years from now. In order for that to be good place we have to work on the issues now.

If we want Lakewood to be a better place, we have to be better citizens ourselves, and work together as a community.

Sharon,

You didn't get my point. I'm not referring to successful people who are lazy or stupid. I'm referring to our lack of discipline and having teeth to call people what they really are. Our hands off approach that every single person in our society has some poor problem they can't fix themselves. Yes, those people in their range rovers and Cadillacs should be called out. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who is trash and ends up lowering the community to a level we don't deserve to be at. It would be nice if we could all go door to door and meet everyone. But we don't need to go door to door and talk to each and every individual before we act on it. When you enforce the laws whether it's through police intervention or civic intervention, responsible people will adjust properly. The others will keep on the same path. I'm all for one great and wonderful civic society. This city as of today, does not have the resources fiscally or with manpower to fix each individual or groups problem. Realistically, residents can't either. We can do our small piece and help out where we can. Reality says, there's a lot of people who just don't care about anyone but themselves. You could talk to them, get them counseling and beat them till their blue in the face. Some time you need to grab people by the nose and kick them in the a.......

[Ryan Patrick Demro]

She violated the law by blocking the public right of way. No person is permitted to block a sidewalk, whether with their car in a driveway or a portable lemonade stand. She was clearly in violation of the law. We have specific ordinances regarding street peddling as well.

The heart of the matter speaks to what kind of city do we want to live in. Guiliani raised the quality of life by getting the car window cleaning vagrants off the streets of New York. We must do the same in Lakewood to the extent that these types of activities affect us. Zero Tolerance, its the only way to go. We have the laws, let's just enforce them.

[Dave Sharosky]

She violated the law by blocking the public right of way. No person is permitted to block a sidewalk, whether with their car in a driveway or a portable lemonade stand. She was clearly in violation of the law. We have specific ordinances regarding street peddling as well.

The heart of the matter speaks to what kind of city do we want to live in. Guiliani raised the quality of life by getting the car window cleaning vagrants off the streets of New York. We must do the same in Lakewood to the extent that these types of activities affect us. Zero Tolerance, its the only way to go. We have the laws, let's just enforce them.

Mr. Demro,

I wouldn't have stated your quote in quite that manner. If she was an adult I would have used those words. In her individual case, or if I was a police officer I would have advised her that it is dangerous for her to be at that area. I would have told her it would be perfectly acceptable to have her lemonade stand, by her place of residence set a little back off the road. Then I would have asked to talk to her parents.

On the other hand, I am all for the second part of your post, "The heart of the matter speaks to what kind of city do we want to live in. Guiliani raised the quality of life by getting the car window cleaning vagrants off the streets of New York. We must do the same in Lakewood to the extent that these types of activities affect us. Zero Tolerance, its the only way to go. We have the laws, let's just enforce them"

[sharon kinsella]

Don't even pull Guilliani into it.

This whole punish mentallity needs to stop. Yes, I'm saying it punish mentallity.

You can talk retribution all you want, all it does is create more problems.

[Dave Sharosky]

Don't even pull Guilliani into it.

This whole punish mentallity needs to stop. Yes, I'm saying it punish mentallity.

You can talk retribution all you want, all it does is create more problems.

Retribution? I'm not talking of revenge. Laws are meant to punish people who don't obey them.

[Stephen Eisel]

are you denying that your comments were racist?

Did you read the definiton of the word racist? The words "Section 8 and ghetto are not racist words. The phrase "get section 8 out of Lakewood " is not referring to one race of people... and was said tongue and cheek.. My words were not racist..

[Rick Uldricks]

I'm sorry I missed the opportunity to buy that delicious looking lemonade from the milk-crate stand in front of Dairy Queen. I need to pay more attention to things when I'm driving to Mitchell's Ice Cream in
Rocky River.

[Justine Cooper]

You know I never heard anyone complain about the car washes for fund raising and white teen girls in bikini tops holding up signs at the corner yelling for you to get a car wash.

I really felt sad when I saw that picture. Yes someone could have asked her to move to a safer residential spot but my thoughts about her were wondering if that was the only way she had to make any money at all. While I drive my white teen to Mitchells (yes) to work, I wonder how quick they would be to hire this teen in the picture?

Jim I hope as the paper continues to grow in many directions you will be offering jobs to deliver and whatever else is needed to teens in need of jobs.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim I hope as the paper continues to grow in many directions you will be offering jobs to deliver and whatever else is needed to teens in need of jobs.

Justine

Welcome back.

The paper might be one of the largest users of student interns in the city. We are setting up the Lakewood Observer Foundation to provide scholarships in journalism.

We have repeatedly tried to reach out to groups like H2O, with help and support. Gordon Brumm, Robert Overman and Dan Slife sit in the Youth Master Plan. Our youngest writer has been 5 and this year we will reach into the grades 7-12 for more writers and ideas how the Observer can server them better.

All that said, The milk carton lemonade stands represents Lakewood at the cross roads and IT IS NOT A BLACK WHITE CROSSROAD.

It is a behavior and law abiding crossroad. I have been to many safety meetings talking about KIDS breaking laws like curfew. Well if we are going to get tough on crime. Who gets to choose which ones get enforced? Should they all be enforced equally? Where does the slippery slope to serious crime start? I have a feeling that there are more bsuiness laws on the books than criminal laws. Some cost business owners thousands and thousands of dollars to comply with, and then they add to the community.

Had this lemonade stand which was manned by a two children representing two of the top three races in the world had been on a side street it would have been fine, and I never would have taken the picture. But the photo op comes as the children(still not sure all were children) took their stand into the business district. This is what made the photo fun, and silly.

It would have been a great capture of time space, summer and youth, entrepreneurship at the Norman Rockwell level. Until I started to read the thread and thought more and more about it.

The question it raises in my mind is. How far do we bend in law enforcement? How far and for how long do we look the other way?

I am glad that this discussion was started with lemonade. Last time it was brought up it was over an 80lb signed that hung over a sidewalk, secured with two nail in rotted and wet particle board. The hand painted signed, was put up without permit by slightly older than the lemonade gang. when I complained on this board about the safety and the appearance I was also called a racist. My fears of the bosrd falling on someone and hurting them or killing a kid were called silly and attack on Arabs!

Those of us can smile and look at young kids in summer selling lemonade. When they move into a business district, it become funnier. But their lemonade sales come at the expense of the three business within eyesight that also sell lemonade, and pay taxes. Silly yes, hardcore yes. But laws and safety are real issues in Lakewood in 2007.

This discussion over lemonade is being played out in other threads on this board. Westwood Theater, does the city help establish another theater using the tax dollars from two other theaters in the city that get ZERO help. Do we pour twenty million into the Beck, when we could buy the Phantasy and Westwood rehab them and own them?

Someday soon, maybe in my lifetime, we can talk about issues without it being black and white. I guess not today. Humans, owners, business people deserve serious discussions about a city without complicating it with race issues that are not there.

For those that speak so highly for diversity, something I embrace. Faces of different colors might appear in the photos and tapestry of that city. That does not make it racist. That does not mean anything good or bad. That is what happens. If the city is healthy, race should never pop into the discussion. It has to be about residents, not black or white residents. We strive for a world with no color barriers then proceed to label everything black or white. I just do not understand it.

Yesterday while working on a project in East Cleveland, The room, and it pains me to go through this, was 20percent white(again no albinos, so maybe pinkish), 40% of the room was darker than the acceptable tanning level for the pink people, the rest were from India, Asia. At no point was any idea or program focused on black or white. It was a technology center for the kids in the neighborhood. FREE WiFi for the neighborhood. FREE computers for the families. Food security for the neighborhood. It was so damn refreshing I left feeling alive with hope. I thought these people get it, grab a damn oar and start rowing. Then I got back to the Observer board.

For the record, I am speaking to both sides of this color discussion in Lakewood. When you describe a person as black, white, yellow or whatever, you have sold that person and their soul short. usually to make a point that needs not be made anyway unless you are looking for that person.


FWIW.

[sharon kinsella]

Jim -

I honestly feel attacked and misunderstood. On this thread I have repeatedly stated that I was not accusing you of anything. I was not being critical of you.

I was pointing out the fact that the picture of the person of color that you took sparked remarks about section 8 and white trash.

I should not be persecuted for standing up for what is right - and opposing what is wrong.

Buzz words are buzz words. Euphemisms don't hide the meaning behind a lot of statements that others have made.

Maybe most people think it's okay to do these things, I don't and this is my town too. I was raised here and moved back here.

It's not the same Lakewood as it was when we were young. I didn't see a black person until I was 8 years old. The world is changing, and we either learn to get along or we will perish.

If I'm going to go after you, I would have to have a reason to do that and I don't.

Please go back and read all my statements and read all the reactions to what I've said and then judge me.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Sharon

I would never attack you, and it was not meant as attack at you.

I understand that neither you nor Annie called me a racist. However after a day of working with color blind people in East Cleveland, this came as a shock.

What upset me more is that East Cleveland has decided to leave worthless descriptions to other cities I guess. They have decided to move the city forward, and I think many will be shocked by East Cleveland in the next 5 years.

Sharon, I am not your typical human, though maybe a typical publisher. I support the right of people to speak as they feel. I want to know who and what people are before I work with them.

I post a photo of a new business on Mainstreet, something Lakewood has invested heavily on. A photo that is a metaphor for Lakewood at the crossroads and it falls into a color of description argument.

Sharon, you have a heart of gold, you are a good person. This was not an attack on you but I hope a wake-up call for those that read the Deck.

.

[sharon kinsella]

Thank you Jim, I feel better now and that is always good.

By the way, I never said, but I my friends and I used to sell lemonade to the bus drivers that worked out of the car barns where the Mayfair now stands. We used to set up in front of Nancy's Restaurant which is now the Harry Buffalo.

We also used to set up in the parking lot of Bonnie Bell so that when the workers came outside for lunch they used to buy from us. We were even patronized by some of the drunks coming out of the Checker Grill.

[Bryan Schwegler]

It's not the same Lakewood as it was when we were young. I didn't see a black person until I was 8 years old. The world is changing, and we either learn to get along or we will perish.

Sharon, I agree with both you and Jim on this issue. However, to me, and I think I'm in line with Jim on this one, it's not about race, class, sex, age, gender, etc, it's about behavior.

To me setting up a lemonade stand in the business district is not acceptable behavior I don't care who you are. Whether you're poor, rich, white, black, unemployed or the Mayor of Lakewood...you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

I guess I'm interested in understanding what you mean by "learn to get along". Do we need to erode what we want as our social norms to get along? Do we need to accept behavior that we never would accept before from anyone in order to get along?

Is the inference that this is a race issue which is upsetting or is it the idea that what these kids were doing was behaviorally wrong?

I agree with you that there are definitely some in this thread that have gone down a road which is clearly racist or classist whether they want to admit it or not. However, I do think Jim makes a valid point on the acceptability of behavior.

[sharon kinsella]

Bryan -

I certainly understand about social norms. Go back and read my other postings on this thread.

What I'm saying there are people of all colors who are wonderful and all colors who are idiots.

When a picture sparks comments denigrating recipients of certain programs and associates that same group for the disrespect and intolerable behavior that is rampant in our society, I will call them on it.

The other night at 2:30 in the morning I heard yelling and screaming and some of the foulest language I could imagine, mind you I have potty mouth.

I looked out the window and there were over 20 young people between the ages of 20 and 30. They were beating the crap out of each other. The first thought that popped into my head, was here is a bunch of white middle class kids, who can't hold their liquor pounding on each other. Should I call the cops. No.

Why not. Because they are kids acting stupid which is what kids do.

How many comments have been made on this forum about that behaviour from white kids. None of them had on pants that rode below their crotch. They all had on wardrobes from the Gap and Old Navy. Do we call them thugs?

Think about it.