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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:18 pm
by Joseph Milan
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
As a fellow Kiwainian, and one that had the pleasure of speaking to your club. I am just curious, did Ryan carry the entire club? How many members of the Rockport Club live in his ward?
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Jim,

While everyone wants to make this as if I am simply talking about Salo, it is not. A republican can campaign from door to door and lose to a democrat who has his or her volunteers make a last minute effort to show they care.
The papers are all biased to the left, something I don't have to tell you about and do the same thing the voters do. This complaint list about Lakewood was already two pages long before I got into the discussion. Something tells me council would do more if they felt they had true opposition. Perhaps this thread would have never needed to be created in the first place.

Joe

Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:36 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Joseph Milan wrote:Jim,

While everyone wants to make this as if I am simply talking about Salo, it is not. A republican can campaign from door to door and lose to a democrat who has his or her volunteers make a last minute effort to show they care.
The papers are all biased to the left, something I don't have to tell you about and do the same thing the voters do. This complaint list about Lakewood was already two pages long before I got into the discussion. Something tells me council would do more if they felt they had true opposition. Perhaps this thread would have never needed to be created in the first place.

Joe


Joe

I didn't even mention Salo?! What I was trying to get to in a polite way was the number of members in the Rockport Kiwanis. You mention as a member of the Kiwanis... Well Rockport even if voted in mass would not register. Do any live in Ryan's Ward?

The point I was trying to make that DL and others have made is that on a local level, parties make less an impact than comfort with the politician, name awareness, and substance. I do not know how long you have known Ryan, but I have known him since his first campaign, when he stopped by to ask for help on his campaign with shirts and graphics. Ryan has grown a ton. He now realizes it is not just pressing the flesh, but representing his ward, even on things that go against the Republican playbook.

Salo reminded me of Ryan in campaign two. He was up against Kevin Butler, and Kevin is a really good man, and a good politician. It also should be pointed out that Kevin's family investment in politics go back many generations. To do as well as he did was a miracle.

The thread, started by me, was about if roads were the biggest problem in Lakewood. How would anyone had fixed that or stopped the thread from starting?


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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:00 pm
by Stephen Calhoun
Joe wrote,
not those registered but the people actually voting, are truly as non partisan as you make them out to be, there would be a balance represented in council


This strikes me as folding in a category error. The category of people being non-partisan is different than the category of balance and no evidence has been presented that allows us to discern whether there is a direct connection between the two.

Whether the fact that self-identified Democratic politicians attract Democratic and independent votes is due to their being Democratic against other factors is researchable but the research hasn't been done.

This is so regardless of the commonsense supposition pointed out by DL: in a largely Democratic city, councilpersons have tended to be Democrats.

Research on why people vote for who they do generally reveals complex factors and very much reveals that many voters do not make decisions based in sophisticated analysis. At an extreme voters go with their 'guts,' make up their minds in the voting booths, and, cannot articulate much about their decision making process.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:40 am
by Stan Austin
Joan----------

Don't leave :(

Stan

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:15 am
by kate parker
Joan Roberts wrote:I guess I should quit trying this newfangled forum stuff, because I'm spending too much time trying to explain "what I meant."

Thanks for the chance to express myself. I think I need to brush up on my writing skills. all the best.


"welcome to lakewood. check your opinions at the door."

joan,

though i don't do much posting here anymore, i do love to read yours. it's a shame that you feel that you need to brush up as i feel you are possibly the posting candidate that needs the least brushing up.

another one bites the dust. yay lakewood!

kate

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:42 am
by Jim O'Bryan
kate parker wrote:
Joan Roberts wrote:I guess I should quit trying this newfangled forum stuff, because I'm spending too much time trying to explain "what I meant."

Thanks for the chance to express myself. I think I need to brush up on my writing skills. all the best.


"welcome to lakewood. check your opinions at the door."

joan,

though i don't do much posting here anymore, i do love to read yours. it's a shame that you feel that you need to brush up as i feel you are possibly the posting candidate that needs the least brushing up.

another one bites the dust. yay lakewood!

kate



Kate, kate, kate


At what point were you ever asked to check you opinion? You were never told to check you opinion, or were you ever silenced or censored.

The opposite is true. The Observer not only published everything you sent in. I begged you to write more.

I hope that Joan merely took offense to my comment on Koolaid. All I was underlining is that her time in Vancouver, had made an impression that became the Vancouver Brand in her mind. It had nothing to do with brain washing or trying to brain wash anyone else.

Kate I hope you come back as the board needs free wheeling people like you with views that might or might not run opposite to those on the board.

Only through discussion can we learn anything.

peace




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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:09 am
by kate parker
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Kate, kate, kate

At what point were you ever asked to check you opinion? You were never told to check you opinion, or were you ever silenced or censored.



i never used myself as an example. in fact, i enjoyed being the pet conservative for a while. however, after the "isn't she cute?" wore off, i began to see how certain trains of thought are consistently badgered while others are coddled. and not just on this board, but overall throughout the city.

joan seemed to me like a true centrist. i admired her posts as well as her proper use of the english language. i admired her for speaking frankly about how she felt about lakewood as well as national issues. i felt that she should know that i, for one, did not feel she needed to brush up on anything and that she would be missed.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:22 am
by Jim O'Bryan
kate parker wrote:
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Kate, kate, kate

At what point were you ever asked to check you opinion? You were never told to check you opinion, or were you ever silenced or censored.



i never used myself as an example. in fact, i enjoyed being the pet conservative for a while. however, after the "isn't she cute?" wore off, i began to see how certain trains of thought are consistently badgered while others are coddled. and not just on this board, but overall throughout the city.

joan seemed to me like a true centrist. i admired her posts as well as her proper use of the english language. i admired her for speaking frankly about how she felt about lakewood as well as national issues. i felt that she should know that i, for one, did not feel she needed to brush up on anything and that she would be missed.



Kate


I agree with you comments on Joan. she is a very needed voice on this board. If anything I should brush up on posting, not her.

I am dismayed by the fact that you thought you were the board's "pet" conservative instead of a conservative on a board in the middle of the very liberal/democratic city of Lakewood.

You have much to offer. After all, thoughts without test, is just theory. But the flow of ideas and discussion have to go both ways.

I took offense to the comment that ideas have to be checked, nothing is farther from the truth at least here at the Observer.

peace



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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:34 pm
by Joan Roberts
OK, one more crack at this branding thingy
My idea of the Vancouver "brand" before I went there was, gliltzy PacNW city, high-rises, mountains, ocean, smart people, rich people, Seattle meets Alaska, young people wearing black hornrim glasses analyzing "systems" during the week and tracking moose on the weekends. Fun, but a tad intimidating for a middle-aged midwesterner for whom glasses are NOT a fashion accessory.
My stay in the neighborhood in mentioned (oddly, named "Fairview")was the ANTITHESIS of that. Here in the middle of all the C-21 Pacific Rim, go-go glitz, just across the bridge from the Vancouver "brand" I allegedly drank, I found something that looked like.... LAKEWOOD!! I walked the sidewalks for the better part of 3 hrs on a Sunday morning, waving to strangers, complimenting them on their rhodies, just like I'd do 3000 miles to the east on Nicholson or Giel. OK, so it looked a little accidental and mishy-mashy, the lack of a "brand" indeed WAS its brand.
That's why I don't mind Rockport Square across from Drug Mart. Why I don't think a Target or a Panera's would necessarily deflower us (there are no "second virginities").
Please let's not take ourselves so seriously. Let's build a big tent. Chagrin Falls does self-importance SOOOOO much better, anyway.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:42 pm
by Stephen Calhoun
We seem to run into some conceptual challenges in trying to square "brand" with "kool-aid".

First, however, it seems worthwhile to point out that when somebody expresses their personal impressions drawn from their own experience, those expressions are true for the person, but are not necessarily true for anyone else. In this respect, those 'truths' are unassailable.

We walk the same streets and each of us have different experiences and so our expressions of those experiences, true enough for each of us, remain 'subjective.'

***

Because 'Brand' is borrowed from the marketing world, it possesses a precise definition, although what it means to users here surely deviates from this definition.

From the AMA Dictionary of marketing terms,
http://www.marketingpower.com/mg-dictionary-view329.php?

brand
- A name, term, design, symbol, or any other feature that identifies one seller's good or service as distinct from those of other sellers. The legal term for brand is trademark. A brand may identify one item, a family of items, or all items of that seller


Since it is a marketer's job, where he or she is involved with 'branding,' to reinforce the positive features underlying the brand, it is understood that underneath a brand are found an array of a product's positive features,

But, the Lakewood product and Lakewood brand is not a result of the explicitly intentional 'symbol-making' (etc.) procedures of a marketer.

The Lakewood brand is altogether much more interesting because, (as I look at it,) at best (and falling well short of explicit procedures,) it expresses the instance of agreement between different subjective views of what are Lakewood's good qualities, but, at the same time, cannot do much more than this.

Because the Brand is, by definition, positive, it doesn't express the negative features. (We could term the negative array, the 'anti-brand,' i.e. those aspects which make a product or service distinctly unattractive.

There's no normative brand possible. Some people may think Lakewood is diverse and is attractive and unpretentious; others may think it is mostly whitebread and grimy and full of its self.

***

Kool-aid isn't found in the AMA dictionary. I'm reminded of the electric kool-aid acid test. To drink the kool-aid harkens back to taking a sip of the watery kids drink with the charged difference: somebody put some LSD in it. The sip that spins one out!

I think it has a more positive flavor in Lakewood usage. But, it also has recently come to have a dual usage for to drink the Lakewood kool-aid is to 'go on the trip of getting it, whereas it is possible to drink some other kool-aid and find after which the Lakewood kool-aid has no effect.

***

Alas, there is a partial loss of 'faculties' associated with going on the kool-aid acid trip.

Eventually, as it is with marketing, the reality of the product transcends the attempt to reduce it--intentionally--to its positive qualities.

The 'city that knew itself better than any other,' ironically is part of the recent iteration of Lakewood Observer brand.

But, the city that actually knows itself well, obviously, knows its self warts and all; knows itself unsparingly and veraciously. The hope is that unleashing knowledge building projects impacts the brand at the same time it blows the brand up. Wow!

***

(As any professional marketer knows, all Brands are, finally, fantasies...what I heard a marketer aptly describe as 'the product wet dream'.) Ken and I have spoken of the collective intrapsychic processes causing the community persona ('the brand') as an effect emerged out of the community archetype ('the imago').

In (analytic) psychological terms, the persona is the least capacious and resourceful aspect of the Psyche.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:07 pm
by dl meckes
Let's not forget the Jim Jones reference re: drinking Kool-Aid...

But interesting that you bring up the specter of the "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" because there's a thought pattern there which I always found to be fundamentally flawed, and that is: "Either you're on the bus or you're off the bus."

While this may have physically held truth, as a philosophy, it's infantile.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:10 pm
by Joan Roberts
Mr. Calhoun.

Of course, in this particular context, "Kool-Aid" refers not to Ken Kesey but to Jim Jones. "Taking the Kool-aid", which Jones' followers laced with cyanide and obediently drank in the mass suicide in Guyana has become cultural shorthand for blind obsequiousness to a leader or idea, however toxic.
"Branding" has a much different connotation. "Branding" to my mind means connecting one product with one set of values or images in the public eye.
GM can "brand" Chevrolet. Anheuser-Busch can "brand" Michelob. George Bush said he wanted to "brand" Tom Ridge. Obviously, branding has its limits
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Branding, as my marketing profs would describe it, depends on TOTAL CONTROL OF THE PRODUCT AND ITS PROMOTION. NASCAR, for example, won't be inviting Michael Moore to be their spokesman anytime soon, and that's where branding a city has its limits. I don't look like, think like, buy like, vote like, or have the same lifestyle, professional, or personal priorities as Mr. O. Or Kate. We share a zip code and perhaps litttle else. Yet I pay taxes, too, and I think we're equals on election day/ Who's to say it's HIS brand, HER brand MY brand, or NO brand that should be promoted? Start branding a community and you indeed do wind up with Chagrin Falls. Or Celebration, Florida. Or Sun City. Start branding yourself as a city of young, beautiful creative types and here comes that 300-pound guy with no shirt mowing his lawn on Clifton. What do you do with THAT?
In the end, "communities" aren't people who all want the same thing and are willing to blindly follow a leader. That was Jonestown. That was "Kool-aid." Communities are places where people can look past their own differences, prejudices, and priorities just long enough to compromise on a few general principles. At least, that's my take on it. I could be wrong.

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:15 pm
by Jeff Endress
Communities are places where people can look past their own differences, prejudices, and priorities just long enough to compromise on a few general principles


And, perhaps, just maybe, Lakewood, can be a community where we creatively and actively work towards such compromises.....perhaps that is our "brand".


Jeff

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:39 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Joan

It had nothing to do with Jim Jones, but had more to do with over simplistic "colors" of Koolaid. I like red you might like purple.

In no way did I mean a suicide pact, or any negative connotation.

I love Vancouver, and it's unique "flavor."

Like I mentioned at the prodding of Kate Parker. Your posts are easy to read, make a ton of sense and leave little to be misconstrued.

Me on the other hand could use many lessons on posting.


peace




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Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:43 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Jeff Endress wrote:
Communities are places where people can look past their own differences, prejudices, and priorities just long enough to compromise on a few general principles


And, perhaps, just maybe, Lakewood, can be a community where we creatively and actively work towards such compromises.....perhaps that is our "brand".


Jeff



Jeff


You were always one of the sharper crayons in the box. this is exactly what I am talking about. The Lakewood Observer, the paper and the board has attracted links and readers from around the world.

Recently we have come under the scrutiny of the New York Times and members of the House of Commons in England. Everyone is amazed at the civility and openness of the project.

This is exactly what I meant. I am not right and Joan is not wrong. Together with respect and ownership of the ideas and comments we can work together to make the city better for everyone, not just a single group.

Without tooting our own horn, you have no idea what this project is doing around the country and the world, and it has just begun.




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