The Observation Deck

Peter Grossetti wrote:

Thealexa Becker wrote:Unfortunately, the difficulty with this medium of communication is that it does not always allow for a balanced discussion.

Thealexa - I would assert that this venue most definately DOES allow for a balanced discussion. There is no censorship; no membership fee; no secret club handshake to learn. The problem is that a patheticaly small number of folks take advantage of the opportunity to participate. (I am pleased that you do!)

To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men. - Abraham Lincoln


Peter

The fact is and maybe Steve Davis will jump in. we were driving down Detroit Ave. as we
often do. I was looking for photos to try the new wayfinding signs out on.

I think just past the Root Café the street gets straight enough to shoot downtown. He
stopped the car I got out an took photos. It was not until later, did I truly see the
absurdity of adding more signs to an already cluttered landscape.

What this photo does, is take out the full view concentrating on the street and signs
but this would not be any different from a motorist.

No photoshop, not tricks.

As for the venue, it is still the most open, real form of dialogue in this city, where the
owner of the site, the mayor, all of council, every civic leader has a seat equal, not
greater than anyone else willing to take part. Here at the Observer no one has the high
ground, unless it is the moral high ground.

.

Wikipedia wrote:A fact (derived from the Latin factum, see below) is something that has really occurred or is actually the case. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Standard reference works are often used to check facts. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable experiments.

Merriam-Webster wrote: Fact: the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>

Oxford English Dictionary wrote:Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true:
the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas
[mass noun]:
a body of fact
(facts) information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article:
even the most inventive journalism peters out without facts, and in this case there were no facts

Are we noticing a theme.

You can say they are facts all you want, and you can say you can back them up with proof, but until you provide that proof to everyone you have made the claim to (everyone on the deck, not just those who you invite and actually take the time to come to your office to see supposed proof) it is just hearsay. It may be fact to you, but to everyone else it is hearsay, and no one has any reason to believe anything you say on anything is fact because you never are willing to share your "proof" or "sources." This has been a problem for years, but you still don't seem to get it.

By the way, someone else's word does not count as fact if you cant verify what they say. So if something you claim is fact is based only on what someone tells you, it is not a fact. Same goes for everything you say on here. No one can verify it, their for it is not fact.

(Do not think this is directed at the parks, it is directed at EVERYTHING you say, so try to think out side your tunnel vision.)

Christopher Bindel wrote:Are we noticing a theme.

You can say they are facts all you want, and you can say you can back them up with proof, but until you provide that proof to everyone you have made the claim to (everyone on the deck, not just those who you invite and actually take the time to come to your office to see supposed proof) it is just hearsay. It may be fact to you, but to everyone else it is hearsay, and no one has any reason to believe anything you say on anything is fact because you never are willing to share your "proof" or "sources." This has been a problem for years, but you still don't seem to get it.

By the way, someone else's word does not count as fact if you cant verify what they say. So if something you claim is fact is based only on what someone tells you, it is not a fact. Same goes for everything you say on here. No one can verify it, their for it is not fact.

(Do not think this is directed at the parks, it is directed at EVERYTHING you say, so try to think out side your tunnel vision.)

Chris

You chirping away about nothing will not take me off my timetable for what I am doing.

What still amazes me, is that you demand facts from me, but NONE for the people running
this city.

It seems to be slightly masochistic, "please hurt me and my city more, I love it."

But I have been wrong before, I have apologized before, I have made mistakes before.

Have you?

I am not wrong about the parks, and judging from Peter Grosseti's comments of last night's
meeting, I am not to far off the mark with that.

I spoke with one of the mayor's neighbors today that called and said, "Yeah I know the
garage sale you are speaking of."

Decades ago, I watched a mayor with a small group of people run fast and loose with the
truth, and their plans. It tore the city apart, and was one of the worst ideas every put
together. Let me assure you, you only need to be looked into the eyes once by an elected
official and lied to, before you realize, they are human, and make the same mistakes. When
I make a mistake it costs me money, When they make a mistake it costs us money in
hundreds of ways. Many of the people from that debacle, now sit on council and/or in
positions of power throughout the city. If they were willing to lets just say fly fast and
loose with misstatements back then forcing 1,500 residents out of their homes for a strip
mall, one can only imagine what they are capable of with the keys to the city.

PLEASE note, Councilman Juris, much to his credit, has not produce one piece of factual
documentation for anything he has posted here. I say to his credit, because it is usually
the cover-up that sinks the ship, not the mistake.

Thanks for the note and the definition, perhaps at the next council meeting you could
read it into the record for them.

.

I ask for facts from the people running the city all the time. You know the big difference between them and you though? They actually give them to me. I can not think of one time I asked them a question and they have not answered me, or I have asked for documentation and they haven't provided it. Between their record and yours I am slightly more inclined to believe them. Not that I will never question them, I do regularly, but until you pony up proof, publicly, for anything you state is true their is no reason to believe what you say.

I say publicly, only because you make your claims publicly.

Stop the Madness!

Christopher Bindel wrote:I ask for facts from the people running the city all the time. You know the big difference between them and you though? They actually give them to me. I can not think of one time I asked them a question and they have not answered me, or I have asked for documentation and they haven't provided it. Between their record and yours I am slightly more inclined to believe them. Not that I will never question them, I do regularly, but until you pony up proof, publicly, for anything you state is true their is no reason to believe what you say.

I say publicly, only because you make your claims publicly.

Chris

I have my reasons for doing this my way.

I will not be bullied, by you or anyone else on this.


J Hrelc

Once again, some wonderful work, but I think I can top it, with real photos.

.

.

kate e parker wrote:i keep seeing "the brand" come up in the discussions on the deck. wtf does "the brand" even mean?

as a resident of lakewood for fort...uh, let's just say a long time, i just figured that lakewood was a super cool place to live. easy to navigate. diverse. full of everything that anyone could need. hell, i could sustain my lifestyle without ever leaving the city.

so many options for everything. even in the winter. super cool.

even with the "draconian laws". even with dollar stores. even with outdoor patios that get in my way. even with the parks closing early (another reason why this city is super cool is the many parks and gardens that i can enjoy every morning...*special shout out to cove park).

see the forest for the trees.

brands are something for cattle, not lakewood. i see "brand" and i hear "pigeonhole" in my head.

Kate

Sorry, I just saw this.

This goes back for me to early discussion on the Deck, where it was thought. "Let's look at what
we have, what makes us different, and what would other people like about us?" That in fact is
a starting place in understanding "the brand." Now the LO has always preferred an open dialogue
in trying to find these things out, but Councilman Juris thought we were evil for even trying. Of
course this is one of the the things the city has decided to look at 5 years later with their Community
Vision program, however that one is highly moderated by city employees, and making you go to
them, were prefer a wider net, and a little more laid back on the "control issue."

Once a "brand" has been figured out, if done correctly you can then use that to market the city
to other people and businesses. For businesses, the mere fact we have 51,000 people is incentive
enough for most businesses offering services.

I think you have captured the "Lakewood Brand" with "lakewood was a super cool place to live. easy to navigate. diverse. full of everything that anyone could need." I would throw in "organic,
bedroom community, dedicated to our schools, education and arts."

From there it can grow to less than 20 minutes from all major shopping areas in the county. A
choice of restaurants, and now public parks that close at dusk.

Once a "brand" is understood, it can be used to look into the future, see what we need, what we
want, and yes even pigeonhole us.

.

Will Brown wrote:I can understand people having garage sales to get rid of things they and their neighbors no longer need, and certainly estate sales fall in the same category. I have not seen a problem with such sales recently, because I live on a very busy street (we can no longer have street parties, even).

But I have also lived on less busy streets when there were far more garage sales than I have seen recently. It is often an unpleasant experience because there is inadequate parking so the people just park anywhere: on the non-parking side of the street; on the tree lawn; in someone else's drive. I once had someone park in my driveway and when I suggested he move, he said he would only be a minute. I and my sledgehammer convinced him to leave.

So I don't like garage sales, but I tolerate them if they are relatively infrequent. My concern with unrestricted garage sales is that we have a lot of people not working, and we have always had enterprising people touring our tree lawns the day before garbage day, taking what they think can be sold. I would be upset if one of my neighbors decided to hold a constant garage sale selling what he had gleaned from the city's tree lawns; it would turn a residential neighborhood into a commercial neighborhood and that is something I think we should prevent.

So why should be legislate now before a potential problem has occurred (I'm assuming no problem has occurred; I don't really know)? Its because grandfathering is common when laws are written or revised; if you are engaged in an activity that is currently legal, and they ban it, you have a pretty good case that what you have should not be taken from you.

So if the proposed ordinances are not too restrictive, and would prevent a prospective problem, I don't see a problem with them. Who but the people who print signs, would be hurt? I think the proposed ordinance should allow advance posting of small signs, as it helps us plan our activities, but I also think there should be a fine if the small signs are not removed after the sale.

I quote Will Brown's post because it fairly goes to why I introduced this ordinance on behalf of the administration. Not because I don't like garage sales, but because unrestricted garage sales do not preserve the residential character of our residential neighborhoods.

The standards in the proposed law -- which were introduced in draft form and will likely change for the better, frankly, in the committee process -- were not introduced to punish the law-abiding, or to take toy sales away from Jim O'Bryan's favorite child vendor. They were not born of a cynical conspiracy to ruin people's days or take food out of mouths. They were introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one. (Ordinances rarely exist, after all, to prevent widespread problems but instead exist to impose community standards on the outliers. We do not use ordinances to congratulate the vast numbers of honest citizens in our midst; we use them to convict the very few petty thieves.)

It should be noted that every northeast Ohio community we've researched, east, south and west, has a garage sale regulation that limits the number of sales on a property in any given year. In Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake, a resident cannot have more than two, three or four garage sales a year, depending on the city. Lakewood is the only community without such a regulation. One could argue, perhaps successfully, that in Lakewood a garage sale is permitted on the same property 365 days a year. The only regulation Lakewood has on the books is where a garage sale may occur on a property (that is, in the garage or the rear yard).

The Housing Committee, as it did Monday in a perfectly rational, deliberative session free from caricature and hyperbole, will continue to meet on the matter. Please come to a meeting or simply let your councilmembers know how you feel. The meetings are always noticed here and the chair always asks for public comment. Councilmembers' contact information may be found here. I'm happy to answer any questions on the subject too.

Thanks.

Kevin Butler

Thank you for your informative post and great service, Kevin. I've been asking you this for the past five years, but any chance you'll move to Ward 3 and serve there? I'd sleep much better knowing my parents and the house we own in Ward 3 are in good hands and being represented well at these "meetings".

As for all these "studies" every elected official keeps quoting-

Remember how parents were presented with studies that showed if kids went to schools with strict dress codes, they would perform better in school? How are we doing on state testing? What "phase" are the schools in right now, phase XVI? We still have kids taking classes in trailers. Gosh, that traffic pattern study our tax money paid for was dead on, wasn't it? Last time I was in town, I stopped at the Manor Park light and waited to turn left for ever, only to find there wasn't even a light there. Poof! What is this sorcery?

We've seen the calls to action so many times- "Residents have been invited to committee meetings" (think dress code outrage, the recent school closing fiasco), only to have elected officials decide to pass legislation anyway because some "study" that no one was told about at the time backs their initiatives up.. regardless of the opposition from tax-paying residents. What's the use? Why bother? It's all just a smoke screen.

As soon as I hear an official say "well, the study shows _____", I chuckle. It's like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. An illusion. The "Ah-Ha! We got ya! didn't we..?" Well, you can make a study show anything, especially if the person doing the "studying" is being paid, everyone is hush-hush and not held accountable, and state funding is in question.

And about the limit of garage sales in Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake- I never knew the City of Lakewood wanted so badly to copy Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake. I always thought Lakewood was aiming to be different. We do things our own way. We have every resource at our doorsteps and offer something none of these cities had and never will have. You know, the stuff prospective Lakewood home owners see in brochures.

Yet all along our officials have been dying to be like Parma and Fairview. That explains the past ten years. I've been bamboozled! I wouldn't want to live in Parma. I really don't want to drive or fly 540 miles to visit a city that's anything like Parma. My parents don't want to own a house in a city like the cities Kevin kindly listed in his post above. But here's the kicker, and what I feel is the core of my circle's frustration with the city and the rodeo clowns who are running it (with a Parma State of Mind): We bought a house in Lakewood because we love Lakewood. We pay taxes in Lakewood because we believe(d) in Lakewood. We stay in Lakewood because we love and believe in Lakewood. So let's keep Lakewood.. Lakewood. Unique, different. Quaint, authentic. Resourceful, accessible. Leading, NOT following or copying. Lakewood- not River, Westlake, Cleveland, Bay, and sure as hell not Parma.

Kevin Butler wrote:I quote Will Brown's post because it fairly goes to why I introduced this ordinance on behalf of the administration. Not because I don't like garage sales, but because unrestricted garage sales do not preserve the residential character of our residential neighborhoods.

The standards in the proposed law -- which were introduced in draft form and will likely change for the better, frankly, in the committee process -- were not introduced to punish the law-abiding, or to take toy sales away from Jim O'Bryan's favorite child vendor. They were not born of a cynical conspiracy to ruin people's days or take food out of mouths. They were introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one. (Ordinances rarely exist, after all, to prevent widespread problems but instead exist to impose community standards on the outliers. We do not use ordinances to congratulate the vast numbers of honest citizens in our midst; we use them to convict the very few petty thieves.)

It should be noted that every northeast Ohio community we've researched, east, south and west, has a garage sale regulation that limits the number of sales on a property in any given year. In Bay Village, Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, Fairview Park, Garfield Heights, Independence, Parma, Rocky River, Shaker Heights and Westlake, a resident cannot have more than two, three or four garage sales a year, depending on the city. Lakewood is the only community without such a regulation. One could argue, perhaps successfully, that in Lakewood a garage sale is permitted on the same property 365 days a year. The only regulation Lakewood has on the books is where a garage sale may occur on a property (that is, in the garage or the rear yard).

The Housing Committee, as it did Monday in a perfectly rational, deliberative session free from caricature and hyperbole, will continue to meet on the matter. Please come to a meeting or simply let your councilmembers know how you feel. The meetings are always noticed here and the chair always asks for public comment. Councilmembers' contact information may be found here. I'm happy to answer any questions on the subject too.

Thanks.

Kevin Butler

Law Director Butler

As always thank you for stopping by. I appreciate your answer and it does seem to run pretty
parallel to what I said was probably the reason for the new laws against all, not the few.

I understand your point that it often the ill deeds of a few that cause legislation to be formatted
and passed, and that it is often done so to make sure the problem does not get out of hand. After
all no laws existed against LSD until it became abused and misused.

With that said...

Kevin Butler wrote:The standards in the proposed law -- which were introduced in draft form and will likely change for the better, frankly, in the committee process -- were not introduced to punish the law-abiding, or to take toy sales away from Jim O'Bryan's favorite child vendor. They were not born of a cynical conspiracy to ruin people's days or take food out of mouths. They were introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one. (Ordinances rarely exist, after all, to prevent widespread problems but instead exist to impose community standards on the outliers. We do not use ordinances to congratulate the vast numbers of honest citizens in our midst; we use them to convict the very few petty thieves.)
-----
The Housing Committee, as it did Monday in a perfectly rational, deliberative session free from caricature and hyperbole, will continue to meet on the matter. Please come to a meeting or simply let your councilmembers know how you feel. The meetings are always noticed here and the chair always asks for public comment. Councilmembers' contact information may be found here. I'm happy to answer any questions on the subject too.

Thanks.

Kevin Butler

Hyperbole?

"hey were not born of a cynical conspiracy to ruin people's days or take food out of mouths."

When did I say that. I said that probably you or the mayor got tired of seeing never ending yard
sales. No cynical conspiracy.

Hyperbole?

"were not introduced to punish the law-abiding, or to take toy sales away from Jim O'Bryan's favorite child vendor."

Didn't know him then, don't know him now. Merely saw one of the many silly images
that I capture all the time. Stop took the picture, and left a card for his parents. Favorite?

Hyperbole?

No matter, I personally like emotion and hyperbole when people are trying to make points. Does it
add to a conversation, most of the time. As it gives insight into the person making it.

So this was "introduced because Lakewood has no other legal way to enforce against constant sales at any one property, which is a known problem, albeit not a widespread one."

Let me get this straight, So you are saying this is to stop a few, and that most residents can have
a yard sales unless you are one of those people.

Thanks again for coming in and explaining the city's and your position.

Dare I say it took less time than me making an appointment to interview you and get your
thoughts, and possibly leaving information you wanted mentioned out.

I hope it was not too painful.

There is no reason to answer this post, unless you want to.

.

Mr. Butler,

Thank you very much for providing a very clear, rational explanation for the ordinance. I discussed the possible reasons with my family and my mother suggested exactly your reasoning as to why this new ordinance was proposed. Some people do abuse the privilege, which is unfortunate.

Aren't we ready for that banjo campfire sing-a-long yet?

I'll bring the banjo, who'll provide the burgers?

...or at least, marshmallows?

We can hold hands, get misty-eyed as the glowing embers fade into the darkening mists of the evening.

Ah, peace and quiet.

Singing those hopeful sixties folk songs about love, joy, hope, and a better world...

I can see it now...

Back to the banjo...

Hmmm.....better check that ordinance about campfires in the city first...

Gary Rice wrote:Aren't we ready for that banjo campfire sing-a-long yet?

I'll bring the banjo, who'll provide the burgers?

...or at least, marshmallows?

We can hold hands, get misty-eyed as the glowing embers fade into the darkening mists of the evening.

Ah, peace and quiet.

Singing those hopeful sixties folk songs about love, joy, hope, and a better world...

I can see it now...

Back to the banjo...

Hmmm.....better check that ordinance about campfires in the city first...

Gary

Actually it would seem, that the residential community on the whole is still getting
punished for a few bad apples.

Celebrate? Hardly.

It would certainly be nice if they could find another way to address the bad
apples. It might be tougher to do, but would reward all in the end.

I think back to when my uncle passed away, and it took 4 or 5 sales to get rid of all of the
items in the house, and this was after we had collectors of books, and art and furniture go
through the house purchasing the valuable items.

We have never had a sale since, but for a month and a half we had them every week.

.

Wish I could have been there at that sale.

I love old books.

Had a similar situation with my grandparents' stuff too.

Keven, better allow for some flexibility in that law.

Laws are almost always supposed to be "one size fits all". Jurists say that's what make's 'em fair.

Trouble is, and jurists will be the first to tell you this: that our system is imperfect.

...and one size never fits all.

Sometimes you do need exceptions. Failure to allow for those, whether through expedience or fiat, and you have not solved any problem at all.

Just a few opinions here from your banjo player, and I may be wrong, but very seldom am.

Back to the banjo...

Ivor Karabatkovic wrote:Yet all along our officials have been dying to be like Parma and Fairview. That explains the past ten years. I've been bamboozled! I wouldn't want to live in Parma. I really don't want to drive or fly 540 miles to visit a city that's anything like Parma. My parents don't want to own a house in a city like the cities Kevin kindly listed in his post above. But here's the kicker, and what I feel is the core of my circle's frustration with the city and the rodeo clowns who are running it (with a Parma State of Mind): We bought a house in Lakewood because we love Lakewood. We pay taxes in Lakewood because we believe(d) in Lakewood. We stay in Lakewood because we love and believe in Lakewood. So let's keep Lakewood.. Lakewood. Unique, different. Quaint, authentic. Resourceful, accessible. Leading, NOT following or copying. Lakewood- not River, Westlake, Cleveland, Bay, and sure as hell not Parma.

Ivor - My interpretation on being similar to the likes of..._____, _____, etc. is different than yours. I see it in a sense that these cities have accepted laws, such as they accept the speed limit law, they accept littering laws, they accept garage sale laws. I don't think it is so much a comparison in image or "vibe" but more a sense that other surrounding neighbors "accept" a law such as a limit on garage sales.

(Otherwise, Ivor, I may be calling on your camera and sports eye to help out with a JFF charity event we have at an upcoming LHS football game on September 7th. Make your travel plans now.)

Corey