Commuter train

[sharon kinsella]

Bret, you were arguing about tax dollars. Back to you.

[Justine Cooper]

OK here are a couple questions:
1) What number/priority would you rate the health tax bill for 911, for the firefighters and rescue workers that got sick from the toxins? And why is there such hesitation there?

2)Do you think the war in Iraq is immoral or impractical?

3)What about proposed cuts for higher education in Ohio which means job losses in important institutions?

[Bret Callentine]

Bret, you were arguing about tax dollars. Back to you.

Sharon, taxes and morals are two completely different topics. Suggesting otherwise would probably represent a breach of the supposed separation between church and state that progressives like to promote.

And Justine, as for the rest...

I'm for taking care of the first responders - period. As for the rest that showed up much later without adequate respitory equipment, after OSHA gave all the warnings, no, they're on their own. And no, I don't know why congress couldn't get this done years ago - that's part of the reason I'm for voting them all out of office.

As for the war in Iraq, it's lawful - get over it. Immoral - no, impractical - absolutely. I am a huge proponent of the utility of force but rarely it's necessity. Am I the only one that read the book "the Mouse that Roared"? If we want to "nation-build" we should probably start with the one we're living in.

and as for #3, this is just example number 4,382 why you should also be against this "high speed rail" scam. We're running a trillion dollar deficit and this is just one more half baked, half funded, half assed attempt by the Federal Government to stick the states with huge debt while trying to make themselves look magnanimous.

We can't afford to reward their delusional egotism.

I'll put it another way...

what if I were to offer you $10,000, but only if you put it toward the purchase and continued use of a new Hummer H3. You'd be on the hook for the remainder of the purchase price, you'd have to pay for the gas, maintenance, taxes and insurance, and once you buy it, you're not allowed to sell it.... pretty sweet offer, right? I'm a very generous guy, right? I mean, how can you pass up a free $10,000, right?

[Justine Cooper]

"As for the war in Iraq-it is lawful-get over it".Wow did you really say that? Out loud? It is "lawful" but not immoral to wage a war with how many casualities between both countries now? And proven on false pretenses-that they had nuclear weapons. Just get real with the facts and put opinion aside for a moment. Our country waged a war on another country on the basis they had nuclear weapons. Fact. They did not. fact. We are funding billions and billions of dollars for this war and supporting weak and often corrupt governments. Forget the billions of dollars. Just money. Go peek into a window like the ghost of Christmas of a family without a father, in this war or dead, or without legs and ability to work. Ask that child how moral, logical, "legal" it feels. and when he asks you what sacrifice you have personally made for this "legal and moral" war, who you have lost, you can tell him "get over it".

Now for taking care of the first responders only in reference to MEDICAL CARE FOR THOSE THAT HELPED IN 911 and bully to the rest. Die and suffer because you were too dumb to wear proper medical equipment when you were responding as a hero while I sat in my armchair reading books and forming opinions! How very Christian of you.

[Justine Cooper]

But shame on you Sharon and me for wanting to build a rail in Ohio instead of giving it to another state. Shame on you while it is OK to spend billions rebuilding the country we destroyed while our ex-VP makes money off of the weapons used. How could we be so immoral?

[Justine Cooper]

I do appreciate that Roy debated the topic without name calling or arrogant inuendos. I personally put the question out to read more facts on it and opinions and read and listen to others when they are not demeaning.

[Justine Cooper]

"what if I were to offer you $10,000, but only if you put it toward the purchase and continued use of a new Hummer H3. You'd be on the hook for the remainder of the purchase price, you'd have to pay for the gas, maintenance, taxes and insurance, and once you buy it, you're not allowed to sell it.... pretty sweet offer, right? I'm a very generous guy, right? I mean, how can you pass up a free $10,000, right?"

This analogy actually makes me think of our housing market and credit card disaster in this country. Because the banks offered bigger mortgages with less down people saw it as a gift and many never thought about paying that mortgage. I know three friends (Republicans) who had no problem living the high life and complaining about paying taxes for those "others" and then claimed bankruptcy and had their big old SUVS repoed because they couldn't pay the bills. The hypocrisy in this country is maddening. Many of us liberal democrats work two jobs to pay our bills and not leave the debt to others. there is a lot of shame in this country for sure. Not with wanting a rail system for the state versus a Hummer for myself like so many indulged in.

[Bret Callentine]

Our country waged a war on another country on the basis they had nuclear weapons. Fact. They did not.

Justine, just because that is your opinion, does not make it fact.

your premise is wrong.

But don't believe me, check with the United Nations...

FACT: Iraq invaded another sovereign country
FACT: we legally went to war to end that occupation
FACT: after kicking their ass, Iraq signed a treaty to end the war
FACT: Iraq violated nearly every one of those concessions - check the UN record
FACT: breaking the rules negated the treaty and justified the US in any continuation of kicking their ass.

You can argue all you want that we SHOULDN'T have resumed an active military role - I agree.
You can argue that we SHOULDN'T maintain a military presence in the area - I agree.
You can even argue that we SHOULDN'T ever go to war - I disagree.

but you can't just replace the events of history with your own version which picks and chooses remote bits of information, takes them completely out of context and drops all pretense of logical evaluation.

But back to the topic at hand...

It is my opinion that acceptance of the money for this "high speed rail" project puts too much of a financial burden on the State and that this burden far outweighs any possible benefits which includes the reclaiming of funds already taxed of our citizens.

I further believe that the Federal Government is acting unconstitutionally by dumping the financial responsibility of this Interstate, Federal, project on the individual states, solely so it can avoid looking fiscally irresponsible.

If you'd like to debate either of these points, I'm more than willing to look at any evidence you have to the contrary.

[Bret Callentine]

If you wouldn't mind, I would also like an answer to my previous question...

Would you, or would you not, accept my $10,000 offer?

[Justine Cooper]

LOL so it is my opinion that our country was told that we were invading Iraq because they had nuclear weapons? I guess we are reading different versions.

My opinion is that invading and killing others, whether you call it kicking their ass or murder, is immoral. What we did and why in Vietnam, in my opinion, was immoral. Same for Cambodia. I don't differentiate "pro life" from an unborn baby or an 18 yo military person or a family who accidentally gets bombed in the process. I don't think God would agree waging war with any of the above countires (humans) is justified or moral. But that is just my opinion. Nor practical, nor beneficial in any way. Iraq's invasion with Kuwait was about the oil and our "help" to them was about the oil too. Not nuclear weapons. And yes Bush told America they had nuclear weapons. YOu don't remember that?

Do I think giving back the rail money was a moral act? no way.
Would I accept ten grand from you to drive a Hummer? no way. But I am not part of the population who maxed out credit cards and drove Hummers and big SUV's that they couldn't afford. Or homes they just walked away from when they couldn't pay their bills for reasons that were just about excessive spending and keeping up with the neighbors. (There was a homeowner on Elbur who had a country club second wedding and two week trip to Europe last year yet walked away from her home on Elber to foreclosure to move in with her fiance and they both claimed bankruptcy after their honeymoon). She would take the ten grand.

As for the rail service my initial question was asking for the real facts on why it was given back and the costs. The myths and facts in the PD did not state the same facts sighted here so where is the research to read up on it without opinions?

[Bret Callentine]

Justine, first of all, you're confusing "weapons of mass destruction" and "nuclear weapons". Secondly, I'm not sure who told you what, but if you'd care to read any of the UN resolutions on the matter (you can start with #1441). You'll see that there was plenty of justifyable and legal rationale behind the re-engagement in direct military action. I'm not challenging you on the moral argument, I'm only suggesting that the legal side of your objection is logically unsustainable.

so where is the research to read up on it without opinions?

my question exactly. If this were a properly proposed Federal project, there would have been research studies done by multiple sources, and a financial review done by the Congressional Budget Office. But, to my knowledge, none of that has been done, or at least has not been made public. WHY NOT?

I would love to see the facts and figures that lead them to decide to use our tax money for this project. I would love to have a rational debate on the outlays, on the expected uses, the timeline, etc. But so far, their most compelling argument is "Because we said so."

And, just to clarify... are you turning down the $10,000 because you hate Hummers and despise your neighbors, or because you recognize that you would have to put up another $50,000 or so and be left with something that was of little use in your daily life?

[Justine Cooper]

So now I despise my neighbors? Wow. My neighbors pay their bills, keep their lawns and home nice, pay taxes, are great people and live within their budget. So I love my neighbors. People tend to put words in your mouth and twist your actual words when they can't argue the point.

Hummers on our road are a joke. A ridiculous statement of trying to show the world how big you are, which means something is probably little in your life. (imo) A rail system, on the other hand, is a great way to move around to our major cities, and yes a great mode of travel for many when our flats and casino are finally built. And yes, a possible way for college students to get back and forth to the Universities in those areas. And much more. And no I haven't read the data that proves either side of the argument which is why I posed the question. But obviously a team of people who worked to get that money know.

The difference to me between weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons is NONE because there were NONE found. Were you not around when the Bush administration told the public that is why we had to invade them? And to fight terrorism?
That's why having an argument on morality in response to a commuter train in Ohio being built when billions are spent from our tax dollars on this war is laughable.

So answer my question: what would you tell that little boy who lost his father? Would you tell him we are within our "legal" rights to have sent his dad there and to "get over it"?

[Justine Cooper]

"I'm not challenging you on the moral argument, I'm only suggesting that the legal side of your objection is logically unsustainable."

I don't know where I aruged anything about legal and stayed focused on the moral side since I was told it is taking the moral high ground to give back the money to someone else. Is this rail system about a moral issue, a legal issue or a financial issue because it sounds very unclear in this argument.

[Bret Callentine]

according to what I've found on the Federal Railroad Administration website (http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/passenger/2325.shtml), most of the funds were initially allocated through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act but it was noted that the project would require at least 1 billion in additional annual budgetary consideration.

Also, according to the chart of awarded funds (http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/Downloads/hsiprapplist.pdf), Ohios request was for $563,783,000, but their award was only for $400,000,000. So right off the bat, we're already short 163 million dollars, just to get the project started.

a search of the Congressional Budget Office website has not revealed any financial review of the policy.

[Bret Callentine]

I'm only trying to have an honest discussion on the legitimacy of the High Speed Rail proposal. I'm not the one who keeps bringing up starving kids, starving homeless, people dying in the streets and, oh yeah, the Iraq war.

Is it possible to remove all the semantics from the discussion and just evaluate the project on it's own merits?

And yes, if that kid challenged the legitimacy of the continued military action I would most certainly look him in the eye and tell him to "get over it." But I guess that's just the kind of heartless bastard I am, and remember; I AM your neighbor (Darth Vader voice implied)

So I love my neighbors