The Observation Deck

Lynn Farris wrote:One of the reasons to do this is to help the people with Lakefront Property. The people that live on the lake have been hit very badly with erosion.

.....The project on Clifton you mentioned, took some of the nicest homes in Lakewood, split a beautiful neighborhood in half and cost the city and the schools a great deal in terms of the loss of property tax. Plus, it moved the flow of traffic to Lake, a residential area.

Our local politicians read these posts. Their silence tells me that they are not interested. If the political leadership is not interested then this debate is a waste of time. But maybe not a complete waste of time.

A representative of the Army Corps of Engineers was quoted in todays Plain Dealer saying that the dredgings from the river have become much cleaner over time.

The dredged material can be used to create an intercoastal along the Lake front from the Rocky River to Edwater Park. The protected area would provide the environment for beaches and waterfront recreation. Residential development would come over time.

Clifton Park should be restored. If the residents of Rocky River are that concerned about
their commuting time I propose this compromise:

Restore Clifton Park

Build a new bridge across the valley connecting Madison Avenue to Rocky River and I-90. Since Clifton park was destroyed to make it easier to get to downtown then it also must make sense to destroy areas of Rocky River to give Lakewood residents easier access to the new downtown, Crocker Park.

Who could object?

Their are only 3 ways to address the budget problems:

1. Keep and attract middle and upper income residents. They pay the bills.
2. Confront the government unions
3. See numbers one and two.

I hope anyone out their who still thinks that the energy crisis or the housing crisis is going to cause Lakewood to be the new "in" place to live have finally come to their senses. State, Local and Federal governments are working non-stop to increase develoment along the freeways.

Think about this:

The State Legislature is working overtime to get a retroactive change in tax law to save Avon $750,000 in property taxes but they can't find the time to vote on changing the speed limit on the shoreway.

While we're talking taxes, this might be of benefit to a few of you.

It's a spreadsheet that compares total costs of living in most of the suburbs in greater Cleveland. Plug in your income, your desired monthly cost of city income tax, property tax, house payment and insurance, and it'll tell you house much house you can afford.

For instance, say you want to pay $1,000 a month total for all of the above, make $100k/year as a family and you can put $20k down. For that $1,000 a month you can buy:

1) A $161,000 house in Avon Lake
2) A $155,000 house in Independence
3) A $150,000 house in Westlake
4) A $147,000 house in Brecksville

or

A $129,000 house in Lakewood.

If you're trying to retain the middle / upper middle class folks, raising taxes is probably not the way to go.....

Bob Mehosky wrote:While we're talking taxes, this might be of benefit to a few of you.

It's a spreadsheet that compares total costs of living in most of the suburbs in greater Cleveland. Plug in your income, your desired monthly cost of city income tax, property tax, house payment and insurance, and it'll tell you house much house you can afford.

For instance, say you want to pay $1,000 a month total for all of the above, make $100k/year as a family and you can put $20k down. For that $1,000 a month you can buy:

1) A $161,000 house in Avon Lake
2) A $155,000 house in Independence
3) A $150,000 house in Westlake
4) A $147,000 house in Brecksville

or

A $129,000 house in Lakewood.

If you're trying to retain the middle / upper middle class folks, raising taxes is probably not the way to go.....

And how many $150k homes really exist in Westlake that are equal to what people looking to live in Westlake are expecting to get?

There's alot more to the housing price than just presenting what you could get based on taxes. Realistically most houses in Westlake and Independence...and even all the new stuff in Avon Lake are not going to be had for much less than $200k.

Of course real estate is all about the subjective. Just tried to illustrate dollars and cents aspect of the effect of taxes.

And no, there's not a lot of 200k houses in those cities, but there are a lot of 250-300k houses, which for an out of pocket basis are the equivalent of 300-350k houses in Lakewood.

Bob Mehosky wrote:Of course real estate is all about the subjective. Just tried to illustrate dollars and cents aspect of the effect of taxes.

And no, there's not a lot of 200k houses in those cities, but there are a lot of 250-300k houses, which for an out of pocket basis are the equivalent of 300-350k houses in Lakewood.

Bob

One of the many reasons I love this project. I thought this thread would go in a completely
opposite direction than it has, still. All conversation is good.

You chart and Bryan's comment point out another interesting fact. Those that claim to be
moving out of Lakewood for tax reasons are either foolish, or lying. When all of the factors
are figured in, it is nearly impossible to get back the cost of the move in tax savings alone.
Throw in the cost of the similar sized house, and you will never ever see it come back.

The point I was getting to is by the way is. If we can only afford to do one or two things
what are they and should we concentrate? I was speaking with someone about this in
lets say another city. They had similar problems and issues, but one of the people in
charge said, "Our mayor likes to do a little of everything, so everyone can see he is doing
something." Well this comment reminded me of busy work when you were a kid working
at the corner store. Keep busy.... But as I came back to Lakewood I was thinking what
would I do. Stay busy making announcements, or focus on a problem, and try to rectify
that? If so what is that problem?

My guess would be housing stock. It is in terrible shape and getting worse quickly. It is
the housing stock that will provide places for the middle class bill payers that Bill Call
speaks of. With 165 Food places in town, we can slow down on giving ourselves awards
for attracting food places, and maybe get back to the work at hand. Clean Housing, Safe
Housing.

Merely my two cents.

As for why the politicians aren't her. Possibly afraid of Sharon or getting questioned, possibly
have zero interest, possibly have not a clue, and simply doing what the gang tells them.
Maybe it is like one school board member who cracks on the deck until he/she needs to
release their speech and begs another to do it. Ken Warren always said those that are not
here, simply cannot put up in a fair public discussion, and are to proud to take part in
public discourse. Maybe it is as one civic leader told me once. "We love the paper, we do
not have to answer questions in the paper."

Who knows, if they want to be absent then lets run the city in their absence. It is rumored
some have computers, and some know how to use them. They will always have a seat at
this democratic table, one seat, the same seat as the rest of us. And they will always be
talking with people that take ownership of their words by using their real names.
Maybe that is what makes them so nervous? Who knows? But we must push ahead and
vet ideas, and live in this great city.


FWIW


.

Since I can't get into more trouble than I'm already in...

Why do people leave Lakewood?

1. Fear of decline. No one wants to be the last middle class resident. They usually define decline as more lower class people. AKA black. No one will say it out loud.

2. Lakewood is not trendy. I've talked to twenty somethings who won't live in Lakewood but think Tremont is cool and the Detroit Shoreway area is really swell. You might think this contradicts (1) but it doesn't. Twenty somethings won't start thinking about (1) until they get married and have children. When people talk about better schools they aren't talking about newer buildings or better teachers. They are talking about a better class of student, AKA white.

3. Lakewood is disrespected. People tend to whisper "I'm from Lakewood". They brag about being from Rocky River or Bay Village.
People want to be proud of where they live. (Have you noticed that Bay Village and Avon Lake are segregated communities?)

4. Taxes are high but they are higher in Fairview Park. On the other hand people are sensitive to taxes. Remember when you only had $5 in the bank? $100 per month in extra taxes can make a difference.

5. No sense of hope or excitement. No faith in the future. All are related to the lack of real leadership. I don't mean balancing the budget.

6. Desire for a newer house or a larger yard. Although that is overstated. A newly hired Lakewood police officer and his wife lived in Lakewood until he was hired then they moved to Bay Village. The house they moved in was on a postage stamp lot. The house doesn't have much more square feet than a large Lakewood double. Why did the wife want to move? See 1,2 and 3. Taxes aren't an issue here.

What to do?

1. It takes money. I'm all for raising taxes to fund various development projects. I'll be dammed if I'll vote for a tax increase to fund raises for a bunch of people who hate the City so much they can't stand the thought of living here.

2. Housing - It is disgraceful that the area of Cook and Clifton are home to neglected four suite apartment buildings. The owners are just biding their time waiting to hold the City for ransom if someone wants to redevelop the area.

There are other similar problem areas but this area is the poster child. Imagine a new apartment development along an newly restored Clifton Avenue.

3. City Council and the Mayor need to challenge the new regionalist approach. Why are they silent about the new Westlake Tri-C campus? Why are they silent about MHS homeless resetlement program? Why are they silent about the new $25 million Clinic building in East Cleveland?

4. District 2 Council candidate Dale Miller. We are doomed. Can you imagine him speaking up? I was all set to run against him myself. I found that we would lose our County business if I won. I didn't expect to win but didn't think it fair to run if I couldn't serve.
Can we get someone to represent this area?

There's more but I got work to do..

Jim O'Bryan wrote:You chart and Bryan's comment point out another interesting fact. Those that claim to be
moving out of Lakewood for tax reasons are either foolish, or lying. When all of the factors
are figured in, it is nearly impossible to get back the cost of the move in tax savings alone.

I'm not sure how you can make that arguement. If a family is considering upgrading to a larger house in Lakewood or a house in another suburb, the tax implications are very significant - especially once you start looking at homes $250k and up. Those are the folks that will really impact the tax base.

As we've discussed before in various threads, the city makes their money from income taxes. We don't have the business or industry that a lot of other suburbs have . When compared to the other suburbs that are essentially residential communities our average income is significantly lower, our housing stock and infrastructure is considerable older and the population density is much higher. That's a bad combination for sustainability.

I'm not sure what the solutions are, but I think I see some of the problems.

When my family moved here, Lakewood was an end destination. That is, you intended to raise your family here and retire here. And that was before the days of no qualifications needed mortgages; i.e., you had to have been responsible enough to save up for a substantial down payment (I think there was no such thing as a second mortgage, or a home equity loan then) so your home was your fortune, and you kept it up. There were some transient neighborhoods then, by which I mean places where you lived until you had saved enough to move to an end destination, but they were fairly few.

Also, at that time you had, at most, one car, and houses had one or two car garages, but often very narrow driveways, and often small lots, as we still do.

Today, Lakewood has become much more transient, with a smaller number of people looking at it as an end destination. All the other people of my generation in my and my wife's families have moved to places that have less congestion, larger lots, and more functional housing. We have dining rooms; they have dens and libraries. We often have but one bath; they want three or four. We have basements and attics, they have no attic, and usually a semi-basement, finished. They all have air conditioning; it doesn't fit into many Lakewood homes. They have patios; we use the driveway apron. They have relatively new utilities and sewers; we don't. They can have a substantial garden; my father-in-law had one tomato plant and a few beans. When we host a holiday, parking is a problem; they have adequate parking.

In short, our homes are old and in need of constant repair, and don't fit what most people with kids want in a home.

Now, you can repair a lot of these problems, but adding bathrooms and ditching the dining room is not practical, and getting a bigger yard and a wider driveway is not practical (unless your neighbor's house burns down, but I didn't say that; in fact I didn't even think it). And you have to wonder about the wisdom of putting a lot of money into a structure that is almost a hundred years old; the American way would be to tear it down and rebuild.

But Lakewood doesn't appeal to many who like a trendy neighborhood, because many who seek such a neighborhood are so wrapped up in their trendiness that they don't want to keep up a yard, and have no intention of ever slowing themsolves down with kids. I read an article on a thriving town (Portland Oregon, I think) that was going green and prospering, but the article mentioned that there were very few children in that town, apparently because the couples were each wrapped up in their job and their cycling.

So I think it unlikely that Lakewood will ever be a magnet for the trendy people.

But the trouble is see is that of all the responses in this thread, none seems to address what we can do right now to solve our immediate problem, and they all seem to have costs that would make our immediate problem worse, even if they were to make money someday.

Lakewood was once popular with workers, but we were a bedroom community, living on businesses in Cleveland; they are almost all gone now, and if your job is in Westlake or Strongsville, there is no easy commute from Lakewood, so you would be inclined to live elsewhere.

I think our biggest problem is congestion; unless the price of gasoline soars (not necessarily a bad thing) and we all stop driving, businesses will be reluctant to locate in Lakewood where their employees and customers have to fight or pay for parking. Doubles that were not a problem when not everyone had a car have become triples and more, with each tenant and cotenant having a car; that is a problem.

If we hope to reverse our decline, we have to step up enforcement of the housing codes, perhaps even inspecting owner occupied singles. A courtesy inspection of each home would be nice; few of us even know what kind of electric service we have, and don't see an impending problem until it becomes a catastrophe. And there must be a way to lessen the parking problems throughout the city.

I only have one point - afraid of me Jimmy? If someone is afraid of me they are sad, sad, people.

Since everyone has their own mental construct of Lakewood based on their own lives, I'll provide mine. I'm 29, and moved to Lakewood (bought a house) two years ago.

For me, Lakewood is the end destination. I intend to raise a family here and retire here. I have even nudged friends and transplants to Cleveland into Lakewood.

Here are the things that drew me to Lakewood, and that I believe will continue to draw young people to this city:

Beautiful old houses that are mind-bogglingly affordable (coming from Florida). Oak trim, leaded glass, architectural details of many kinds. I have about 30 projects on my home improvement list, and I'm looking forward to all of them. I think big houses with 3-4 bathrooms in the exurbs are ridiculous.

Walkability. There are probably very few places in the country that are as walkable as Lakewood. Parks, restaurants, bars, the Beck, antiques, galleries, chocolate, ice cream, movies. All of these things and many more are within a mile of my house. Restaurants and bars almost need their own category, but I'll name some of my favorites (that I've been to so far): Melt, Players, India Garden, 56 west, Aladdin's, Pepper's, the Place to be, Beer Engine, the Root.

The lake. I can walk to Lake Erie in 10-15 minutes. I can grill out at Lakewood Park and enjoy beautiful views of the city. I do agree that Lakewood needs true lake access, and I think it should be officially studied by the city. I'm starting to feel that lake access is inevitable/necessary for a growing Lakewood.

Proximity to Cleveland but with greater perceived safety. I say perceived because I think people's idea of what is safe and what isn't is mostly based on anecdotal BS. But we all do it.

Lakewood schools. I'm not exactly at the child rearing stage yet, but the LHS excellent rating last year was impressive/heartening.

Lakewood may not be trendy, but for all of the reasons above I think Lakewood attracts a practical sort of yuppie.

So we're basically in great shape. My assumption is that the only reason Lakewood's population is declining is because the Cleveland metropolitan area's population is declining overall because there aren't enough new jobs being created. And Lakewood being predominantly residential, we can't exactly create the jobs in Lakewood itself. So the best thing we can do is to keep the city in the best shape possible for the inevitable (I'm optimistic) renewal of Cleveland.

Welcome Ben. You sound like a very intelligent young man and I'm glad you're here.

And don't be afraid of me, I'm just a very vocal old woman who doesn't like lies and some can't handle that. You'll do fine here.

If you haven't been there, check out our library, one of the best small libraries in the country. It's jewel (not the outside in my opinion but the inside rocks.

Ben, you are a genius. We need more people like you.
In my opinion, our main problem here is that we have too many politicians of a like mind. From our congressmen, to county officials, to many city and suburban hacks, they all seem to be anti job growth, and proud of it. What is the main impetus for anyone to live anywhere? In most cases, jobs. Either a particular job, or the knowledge that you could find one fairly easily. We have had our share of job losses over the past decade, and not done much to replace them. Name me one politician at the county level or in Cleveland that seems concerned about it.
Ben, you said it well. Lakewood, and for that matter Westlake and every other suburbs future is tied the future of Cleveland. For that reason, we have to make sure that the whole region gets enlightened leadership sooner rather than later.

Will Brown wrote:And there must be a way to lessen the parking problems throughout the city.

Sell parking permit stickers that are required for residential street parking Available for residents for an annual fee. Ticket and tow anyone parked on a residential street overnight without a sticker.

Raises money, creates an incentive to only have cars that are necessary, and hopefully helps some of the parking problem.

Bryan Schwegler wrote:

Will Brown wrote:And there must be a way to lessen the parking problems throughout the city.

Sell parking permit stickers that are required for residential street parking Available for residents for an annual fee. Ticket and tow anyone parked on a residential street overnight without a sticker.

Raises money, creates an incentive to only have cars that are necessary, and hopefully helps some of the parking problem.

The money raised is only going to offset the price of the extra police needed to ticket hundreds of cars a night.

Anyway, Is Lakewood trendy? I am not a very good judge of cool. When I think of trendy Ohio City or Trendy Treamont, I think two things. First why... Nice area enveloped by "hood". Second I think the trendy part comes from the bounty of EXPENSIVE restaurants. Trendy people want to feel like they are better by spending more money on food.

Will Brown wrote:If we hope to reverse our decline, we have to step up enforcement of the housing codes, perhaps even inspecting owner occupied singles. A courtesy inspection of each home would be nice; few of us even know what kind of electric service we have, and don't see an impending problem until it becomes a catastrophe. And there must be a way to lessen the parking problems throughout the city.

We must have point of sale inspections for ALL properties not just the non-owner occupied properties. It is way past due. Politically it might be difficult and the realtor's will _itch and whine but most of them are only interested in quick commissions. Most intelligent buyers usually require a private inspection anyhow and the additional level of inspection might even add value that would be worth the additional hoops needed to jump through to complete a sale. 25 yrs. ago I would have been political suicide to suggest the elimination of backyard garbage pickup, but In 2009 it went off with barely a peep. I remember it being a top bullet point on political flyers. The day for point of sale inspection is NOW.

Parking, can someone please identify the exact locations of the problems? Sure a smaller number of neighborhoods with higher than typical vehicles per household but this usually shifts over time. And of course during special events like the Arts Festival, large events at the civic or high school football field and during prime bar time in those areas but day in and day out where is the parking problem? Personally I believe in building for the average usage not the maximum and that seems to be what we have.

Bill