The Observation Deck

Charlie Page wrote:Bill and Tim, since the two of you insist that teachers make too much, here's a question for you: How much should teachers make?

The average teacher makes about $80,000 per year with benefits. Is that too much? Yes. If you don't agree that it is too much perhaps we can agree that it is enough?

At a time when:
well educated people can't find a job
housing prices are declining
citizens wages and benefits are being cut
living standards are declining
the State is becoming poorer
taxes are at an all time high
when the City and schools are on the hook for MILLIONS in unfunded pension liabilities
there is no money left for maintenance of basic infrastructure
there is no money left for development and job creation


Why are we talking about $12 million per year in taxes increases to fund raises for school board employees?

Has anyone one given any thought to what affect taking $12 million per year from Lakewood households and transfering it to Avon Lake households will have on Lakewoods economy?

They could at least be honest about the nature of the levy and stop calling it the operating levy and start calling it the pay raise levy.

The Gieger board squandered a legacy. It's time to start rebuilding the legacy. Part of that rebuilding will take the form of completing the school construction project. Since the State will not be providing any money for that project the tax increases needed for that will be substantially higher than once thought. Raises or infrastructure?

And anyway, why HASN'T anyone answered my questions?

Let me put this into very simple terms, from the perspective of a retired teacher.

People need to know that the teachers' pension plan is already under serious scrutiny by those responsible for its maintenance, as the economic realities of life come into focus. Who knows how it will end up in the next year or two? Teachers too, are living in very uncertain times.

That STRS has historically been a very good plan for us, I would not deny. Others have tried to disable it for years, but for the most part, it has done very well for retired teachers.

I would simply say this. Our retirement plan has been the one bright light at the end of the tunnel for underpaid, overworked teachers, who otherwise could probably never hope to set aside the monies necessary for a comfortable retirement.

If people want to dismantle that plan, they'd better be prepared to raise teachers' salaries to a point where they would be comparable to well-compensated executives having similar responsibilities. There has to be a fiduciary trade off, whether that would be money now, or money later.

I do think that Tim has a good point, in that successful people making more money should be able to set aside much more into their own retirement accounts, as well.

Where I would disagree with Tim would be that Lakewood teachers certainly did take one for the team with the last salary negotiations.

Just as a final thought, unfortunately, in this country, so often, in order for any pension fund to grow serious money, it had to be investing seriously risky money. That many of our funds lost a pile of money in the recent past is tragic...but in retrospect, what other options did they have? Is there a better way?

If the reporting is accurate, the teachers' association and the board agreed to a two-year extension of their contract which was to expire in 2010, and froze pay scales for the first year of that extension, but agreed to renegotiations for the second year, apparently to be conducted sometime after the election.

This makes perfect sense when taxpayers are in economic distress. Without this extension, and pay freeze, some messy negotiations would be going on at the very time that we were voting on the question of the levy, and could very well make a lot of people reject the levy.

So it is perhaps technically true that there are no scheduled rate increases, but at the same time there is a promise to negotiate that very subject after the question of the levy is decided, which many of us believe is the same as a scheduled rate increase, with only the amount and date to be decided.

I appreciate what teachers do, and if it where up to me, I would pay them more, but require them to work year-round, and to implement some efficiencies that could give us more results for what we pay.

I think it is, however, very difficult to get an accurate picture of the actual cost of employing a teacher (or anyone else). Most of us who work do not in fact know how much we cost our employers. We know our nominal salary or wage, and the amounts that are withheld, but we don't know how much the employer is paying for the fringe benefits, nor for retirement programs, nor for having someone else available when we are sick or on vacation. These are figures we just don't see so we don't consider them. Much as most of us don't know how much we pay in federal income tax, we just know how much we have to send in with the return, and some of us think we don't pay tax, we get a refund.

I am not convinced, however, that we can afford the costs of this levy now, not when our economy is still week, and not when those of us with health insurance face the prospects of drastically increased costs when the proposed health care reform is jammed up or down our orifices.

Will Brown wrote:So it is perhaps technically true that there are no scheduled rate increases, but at the same time there is a promise to negotiate that very subject after the question of the levy is decided, which many of us believe is the same as a scheduled rate increase, with only the amount and date to be decided.

I see the truth of it. Don't forget that they only agreed to forego one COLA raise, they still get the 4% step raise.

After the levy passes do you think the union will be struck by a sudden desire to compromise? Do suppose the Geiger holdouts will suddenly remember who they represent?

Brent Larkin wrote this in today's Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index. ... ed_fo.html

They State is facing an $8 billion dollar budget deficit. If Obamacare passes the State will be required to spend BILLIONS more EACH YEAR in Medicaid subsidies. Faced with a $12 billion dollar deficit do you think:

The State will continue its current subsidy of schools?
Keep its promise to finance the school construction project?

The short answer is no. We are going to be on our own. Is this the time to talk about how big the raise is going to be for school board employees?

Years ago the President of the National Organization of Teachers was asked about the affects his demands would have on the students. His response was "The students aren't my constuency". I guess that's fair enough but then the question is: "Who represents the citizens?"

The City itself is going to be facing the same economic train wreck that is facing the State. What happens in three years when Lakewood Hospital sees an explosive growth in Medicaid patients? Payments under that program are barely 50% of the cost of service. Where will the money come from? What happens to Lakewood when the hospital closes? Don't look to Congressman Kucinich. He sold his vote (soul) for Obama care in exchange for a ride on Air Force One.

Another great quote from A Man For All Seasons:

Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world... but for Wales?

Bill

What I have always enjoyed about my dealings with you, is that while we often see the
same thing very differently you are always willing to talk about it, and often you have
a solution, or enough of a concept that it can lead to a solution when working with a bleeding
heart liberal such as I.

So if we know the state will soon break its promise to Lakewood and our schools, what do we
do? How do we keep what we are most known for here, and vibrant in town? Lakewood is
known throughout the region as a vibrant bedroom liveable community that is dedicated to
education, arts and learning. How do we preserve that to keep people here and bring more in.

It would seem that not funding it would only speed up its ultimate failure, and then ours.


.

The average teacher makes about $80,000 per year with benefits. Is that too much? Yes. If you don't agree that it is too much perhaps we can agree that it is enough?

No, $80k is not too much. Teachers do more than just teach our children.. They are counselors, role models, and actually help in raising our children. Lakewood school teachers are big part of what makes the Lakewood School system a great system...

Let’s take last year’s rating “Excellent”, overall perhaps but take the high school into prospective “Continuous Improvement” is the rating. Now let us talk the districts ranking in the state, Lakewood rating sucks in comparison for the funding per student. I’m amazed by educators that gives and excellent to a the school districts who’s ranking is below fifty percent of the schools in Ohio. I call that grading on the curve or is it grading below the curve. It is obvious that funding per student does not prevent meritocracy in public schools. Increase of 29 percent in five years, less student and they holding out the bowl to taxpayers on the guise its for the children.

If you don’t think there is a problem with the district’s state ranking for the money being spent per student, either you don’t care, you’re a school district employee or there’s a third option. In fact, Lakewood has one of the highest average teacher’s salaries in the area and it should reflect that in the results. If superintendent cannot match the funding to the state ranking then the board should find someone who can. If they don’t make the change then elect those who will.

Send a message, vote no!

The condition of your schools will very much reflect the condition of your community to others.

As your schools go, so shall your community go.

Our school staff salaries, for anyone who would care to do the research, are just about in the middle of the Cuyahoga County pack. Those salaries certainly are a bargain, especially when taking our high rankings into consideration. We also must at least TRY to be somewhat competitive with our salary structure, in order to attract and retain good teachers.

If you fail to pass the levy, if you fail to support your schools...

...then the price that this community will pay, as it slides into a downward spiral, could well exceed whatever a levy might cost.

Please support your community. Please support your schools.

The alternative would not be pretty.

I'm not sure I buy the doom and gloom prophecy if the levy fails. In fact, I'm getting tired of being threatened with catastrophe, falling home prices, and a coming ghetto if I don't vote for it.

Maybe the schools need more money, but hey, so do I and so do a lot of other people who are unemployed, underemployed, or not paid fairly. A lot of people are hurting right now with the poor economy and really cannot afford a tax increase and then they're supposed to feel bad on top of that because they're "hurting the kids" and ruining their community.

OK, so I'm cranky today, but I've heard this same rhetoric every time a levy is up for the past 30 years.

Gary Rice wrote: Those salaries certainly are a bargain, especially when taking our high rankings into consideration. We also must at least TRY to be somewhat competitive with our salary structure, in order to attract and retain good teachers.

There is NO relationship between the salaries of teachers and administrators and student performance . Districts that spend less get better results. Districts that spend more get worse results.

Lakewood teacher salaries are about average for Cuyahoga County and much higher than the Statewide average. Benchmarking Lakewood to Clevleand Heights or Euclid is like Chrysler benchmarking its performance to that of General Motors. "No problem here, we operate just like General Motors."

This levy is not about the schools or the students. It is about the 20% raises expected by the teachers. The levy is not an operating levy it is a pay raise levy. Giving the Geiger click that controls the board another blank check is the wrong thing to do.

Anyway, we have already been told that planned raises will eat up this levy in only three years. After that another levy will be needed to fund another round of raises.

Had enough?

Bill,

In theory, you should be absolutely right.

There SHOULD be absolutely NO relationship between salaries and good teaching performance.

You and I both know that good teaching can go on in the financially poorest districts in Ohio, and shoddy teaching can occur even in the best districts. (although these days, I would think, not for long. There are many safeguards in place across the board nowadays to deal with truly bad teachers from whatever district. We do hear horror stories from time to time, but those are usually not from this state)

The trouble often lies with resources and supplies. True story...in another district, they bought brand new textbooks in order to conform to new curriculum demands for a particular subject. A very short time later (I think, within the span of a year or two) they were forced to get rid of them, when the state changed the curriculum!

That takes a ton of money that had to be spent, and spent again, even with the most responsible planning and intentions in place.

As well, the demands of the technological internet age, and the constant updating of computers, has brought even more expenses into the classroom...

...and I won't even go into the many unfunded mandates that have come to the public schools of late, or the public monies that have been sent by law, to the new charter schools.

Bill, take a GOOD objective look at those test scores and the financial resources of other outlying suburban districts. Districts around us that spend the big bucks, DO generally perform significantly better than we do.

There IS, unfortunately, a strong financial correlation between student success and dollars paid out.

Levy monies don't just automatically go for salaries. The ONLY way more monies could go out to salaries would be through a future collective bargaining process.

As for the alternative? If people do not think that a "gloom and doom" scenario would be in the works, if a community did not support their schools, just look around to the neighboring communities in our county. Look at their property values, their quality of life issues, and then look at whether they have supported their schools or not.

Then, you tell me what YOU think.

Back to the banjo...

School districts that failed to pass levies recently: Olmsted Falls, Medina, Brecksville-Broadview Heights, North Royalton.

I don't see those areas as sliding into ghettodom. People are still moving there.

I used the term "downward spiral" intended in an economic sense. I certainly did not use terms like "ghettodom" or "coming ghetto", nor would I EVER do so.

Actually, I've heard terms like those bandied about, ever since we moved here to Lakewood in the late '50's.

The term "ghetto" has developed a negative political connotation in our country that has very little to do with it's original meaning.

Lakewood is certainly not a ghetto, not will it ever become one. What it is, is a refreshingly diverse community that, thankfully, is welcoming people from other communities, and from around the world, as our neighbors.

For that reason alone, we need to keep those GREAT schools going strong!

Back to the banjo!

I am generally very anti-tax. In this case I am for the levy. One of the reasons is because I know what will happen to the students if it fails. The threats that the board is making will happen, just talk with any Parma parent with kids that want to play sports or be in extra music groups. I spoke with a mom of a high school girl that plays high school softball and she has to pay almost $600 just to play. Right now in Lakewood kids that want to play in sports pay just $75 per sport with a family max of $450. Families can also get discounts by helping with the booster fundraisers.

I think the teacher's union really should work for the good of the community but lets be realistic. If this levy fails the teachers are not going to take a cut the kids programs will get cut. Class sizes will go up and extracurricular activities will suffer. Do we really want kids that want to be in band or sports have to pay $500+ just to participate??

The Lakewood schools are more than just test scores; they offer great experiences that many other schools just can't. We need to put aside our frustration with the unions and remember that no matter who we want to suffer, it will be the kids that lose out.

Richard Baker wrote:Now let us talk the districts ranking in the state, Lakewood rating sucks in comparison for the funding per student.

Please substantiate, Richard.

Thanks.