The Observation Deck

[quote="Gary Rice"]

The thing is, Lakewood does not exist in a vacuum. Lakewood administrators and teachers did agree to salary freezes for the time being, but... even if they were to hypothetically agree to some kind of reduction in salary and benefits, other surrounding districts would then become super-magnets for the best and brightest Lakewood staff members to jump off our then-to-be-sinking ship and swim for greener pastures elsewhere. (How's that for mixing metaphors?) (smile)


Lakewoods experienced professional staff is probably the singular reason why such great thinks have been achieved by our students in the face of the challenges so many of them face outside of school. But Gary as a retired teacher you know better then most that the threat of all the experienced teachers leaving if we don't keep our teachers in the high end of pay continually meeting or surpassing the other local districts is just a myth to keep the raises coming. Experienced teachers can't jump districts without taking a major pay hit. Unless they teach a specialty. Districts only higher the lower paid recent grads to keep their budgets in check.

Bill

Would they really be "super magnets"?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but teachers' salaries are senority based - more years, more $$$, as well as indexed to the cost of living. However, if you jump to another system you only bring along a maximum number (five?) of years of seniority.

What a teacher might gain on the pay scale, they might very well lose through loss of seniority.

Plus, isn't the pay freeze only on the cost of living raise, not the seniority raise? They're still getting more money in 2010-2011 than in 2009-10, correct?

I'm not saying teachers don't deserve their money (I'm married to a speech therapist in the Cleveland schools), but before we act like we have a gun to our heads, it would be sensible to make sure we're getting the greatest bang for the buck possible with the funding they already have.

(Ok, "gun to our heads" and "bang" were poor choices of words in combination!)

Stephen Eisel wrote:

As an aside, whenever I read about charter schools, I think the headline should be, "Republicans Endorse Taxation Without Representation".

Seems to mean the opposite to me.. Tax payers creating another choice for their children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxatio ... esentation

No taxation without representation" began as a slogan in the period 1763–1776 that summarized a primary grievance of the British colonists in the Thirteen Colonies. In short, many in those colonies believed the lack of direct representation in the distant British Parliament was an illegal denial of their rights as Englishmen, and therefore laws taxing the colonists (the kind of law that affects the most individuals directly), and other laws applying only to the colonies, were unconstitutional. In recent times, it has been used by several other groups in several different countries over similar disputes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/charter%20school

charter school
n. A public school operated independently of the local school board, often with a curriculum and educational philosophy different from the other schools in the system.

Stephen,

Fair enough, you've got the definitions, but you left out the information that would give context to my comments. In Ohio, charter schools often receive money from the school districts in which they are located. The charter schools then use tax dollars without the voter representation of a school board or ballot opportunities.

The fact is, private education is already an avialable "choice". I encourage everyone to exercise their choice of public or private schools, but I don't think taxpayers should all have to pay extra for the private "choice".

We already pay for a public education opportunity for ALL children, as we should. Each student has different abilities and disabilities. They all get a chance. Public schools have an endless list of federal, state, and local mandates to fulfill with taxpayer money. As costs increase, they have to go to the voters to ask for more revenue.

The tuition/voucher money grab from local public tax dollars, advocated by private/charter schools that hand-pick students, runs contrary to fairness and democracy.

I went to public and private schools, and graduated from a private high school. My high school charged a fairly hefty tuition. At that time, one third of its students attended with financial aid in the form of scholarships, one third were from middle class working families like mine, and one third from extreme wealth. I could be in class with both a poor kid from the south side of Chicago and a wealthy congressman's son. The tuition money did not come from a public school district's tax dollars. Personal "choice", privately funded.

On this forum, I see an awful lot of demands for immediate response, transparency, and accountability from elected officials. We have the right to do so. I would like to see the response to the same demands of one of Brennan's White Hat managed-for-profit charter schools.


Steve

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think time is on our side with this one. In this economic environment, I don't think there is a demand for those properties, hence values are low. We can wait, unless an attractive offer is made.

There are plenty of existing commercial properties that sit empty in Lakewood right now. The old Rego's/Giant Eagle, Ganley Subaru, and the proposed site for Applebee's, are just a few that come to mind.

Even churches are sitting empty.

Don't you think we at least deserve at plan on how the BOE plans to decommission these buildings before the citizens of Lakewood are asked to give more money to the BOE?
I think at least deserve a plan.
Who knows we may get lucky.
If someone is looking to purchase property in Lakewood ....are they even shown these properties? Are they on the market?

Rhonda loje wrote:Don't you think we at least deserve at plan on how the BOE plans to decommission these buildings before the citizens of Lakewood are asked to give more money to the BOE?
I think at least deserve a plan.
Who knows we may get lucky.
If someone is looking to purchase property in Lakewood ....are they even shown these properties? Are they on the market?

Rhonda,

One BOE member has weighed in on this in another thread.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8785

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Just saw that...thank you Matt for responding.

All this talk about keeping a close eye on the Schools' use of money is just talk.

The only way the citizenry can control the Schools is to vote for board members, to vote on funding, or to engage in a lot of whining.

Once we elect someone to the board, we are stuck with him for years. I don't think there is a provision for a recall. and if past is prologue, members are almost automatically reelected.

Once we vote in a levy, we can't undo it, even if we think the money is being wasted.

Whining, while common, is not effective.

So the only effective thing we can do right now is to vote for or against the levy.

I think the Lakewood schools do a pretty good job, all circumstances considered. I discount the ballyhooed excellent rating because that comes from the State Department of Education, which is just another arm of the educational cabal that has led us to a third-world status in terms of our students' achievements. Unfortunately, a common response of educators faced with graduates who do poorly in evaluations of achievement is to lower the bar, and claim that they are doing better.

Unfortunately, it is expensive, and another levy will make it more expensive. By way of comparison, the Ohio Department of Education reports that for FY 2008, average cost of education per student per year (not a fully accurate measure, but one works with what one has) was $9990 for Ohio, $12,179 for Lakewood, $11,453 for Berea, $10,606 for Bay Village, $11,197 for Rocky River, $11,726 for Parma, $16,195(!) for Cleveland Heights, and $13,355 for that bastion of excellence, Cleveland (I guess maybe you don't get what you pay for).

The citizenry of Lakewood is suffering financially. Our homes (the major asset for most of us) have declined in value. Many of us have become unemployed or been downsized. If we have any investments or savings, they are wasting away, yet our expenses continue and we are faced with the prospect of dramatically increased medical expenses when our leaders throw the dice on a health care scheme best described as a fruitcake.

I think it is not unreasonable that public employees should share the pain.

If we don't pass the levies, the board will have to come up with more economies. They will have to work with the unions to find some way to lower costs. Unfortunately, the board seems to have a history of caving in to demands that many of us think are unreasonable. I would be very suprised if many teachers left if faced with a slight salary decrease or fewer benefits; where would they go? The whole country is in the same pickle. What would the union do if faced with less money for its members; sacrifice a few to benefit the rest, or buy into a reasonable reduction.

We need something more creative than the usual threats to shut down football and the music programs. Perhaps instead of the constant argument of which elementary school to close and which to rebuild, we should shut them both down and same some money.

Jim, I know plenty of people that have moved away because they believe the Lakewood City Schools have gone "down hill". While I may disagree with that viewpoint, their actions are concrete. So how many people do you know that moved back? I will count those who I know moved away. Then using our incredibly accurate and statistically significant numbers, we will use a highly sophisticated Ken Warren-like analysis that nobody understands to conclude that neither of us has any credibility with our numbers. Then we can go get something to eat. Do you see where I am going with this?

Will, I disagree with your analysis of what makes Board members move. In the past, it has been failed levies. Money is generally the only thing that government officials understand. Trust me, I was one, I know the drill. So if one wanted to send a message, that is the most effective way. Our school board is a clique, very different from other elected bodies. They may not agree ideologically, but the way they get elected/appointed and the length of time they serve is pretty standard and has been for over 20 years. This is a body that can be easily analyzed from a empirical standpoint. Outside of Mike Summers, please remind me of a school board member that was beat by an outsider in a recent election? It generally does not happen. So "holding them accountable" in an election is futile. The general public really isn't all that interested in school board races.

Just a few points here:
From personal experience I do recall very well many years ago when the district where I had been employed went through some hard financial times, that a number of their staff left for better paying districts. Some of those were indeed young teachers, who could recoup the expense and relative risk of a move over many years in the more affluent districts. (at the time, quite frankly, some of those had been riffed -that is, reduced in force, so they had to go looking elsewhere) Also, even some experienced teachers in very critical subject areas were quickly hired by more affluent districts too. My former district recovered over time, but it was difficult, and now they face yet another serious levy crisis.
Losing a levy can indeed cause staff to be dismissed, and so often these are the last hired new teachers.
Losing a levy can, (make that usually DOES) mean that sports can become pay-to-play, music programs can be cut, and that curriculum can be trimmed to basic state minimums.
You've probably heard the term "unfunded mandates", as well. Those are government mandated programs that come without sufficient funding to carry them out. That's been a problem with modern American Education, and has stretched education budgets even further.
The issues of using public school money for private or charter schools is one of the hottest topics in modern education. Charter schools have become a big business of late, and public money can and does go to them.
Private and charter advocates maintain that since all people pay taxes for public education, that parents have the right to educate children with public money, even if not through regular public education. Without getting into the philosophical and legal discussions behind all of that, (and I do have STRONG opinions that I struggle to keep to m'self here) that does increasingly draw cash away from traditional public school budgets, as well.
Of course, failure of a public school levy, under the present payout circumstances, could also adversely affect the private and charter money flow as well. In short, all students could be adversely affected by levy failures.
Not to mention the community itself.
Not a pretty scenario, whatever your philosophical point of view.
And by the way, an "EXCELLENT" rating these days for a district like ours means exactly that.
It's a very difficult rating to achieve, and the highest possible rating available, too.
It is not an award. It is a quantifiable, measurable accountable rating, based on testing, attendance, and graduation rates.
Lose the levy attempt, and achieving that kind of rating in the future will be a real stretch; this I do believe.
Back to the banjo...

Gary Rice wrote:You've probably heard the term "unfunded mandates", as well. Those are government mandated programs that come without sufficient funding to carry them out. That's been a problem with modern American Education, and has stretched education budgets even further.

Blaming unfunded mandates is simply a convenient excuse.

Lakewood spends $12,174 per pupil.
Avon spends $8,000 per pupil

Lakewood has an enrollment of 5,605
Avon has an enrollment of 3,461

Lakewood spends $10,000,000 per year more on a per student basis than Avon. Over the next three years Lakewood will spend $30,000,000 million more than Avon.

If this levy passes in a few years Lakewood will be spending $15,000 per year per student. That's more than they spend in New York City.

I'm not asking that we only spend what they spend in Avon. Perhaps Lakewood can get along with only $2,000,000 per year more than Avon. Do they really need the whole $30,000,000?

ALL-

Steve Davis' point is so wrong. Private school choice, before charters, only existed primarily for the wealthy. Tell me who in Birdtown has the means to send their kid to Ignatius or Ed's on anything but a scholarship. The tales of scholarship are quite long. Let's talk about the masses. Let's discuss a situation where if I don't like Public School A on Monday, I can walk in an enroll my kid in Charter School B on Tuesday.

Charter schools give parents of students trapped in the failing inner city school public monopolies an opportunity to give their children a chance. Now, are all charters perfect, by no means. Yet, if you talk to charter school parents, on the whole, you will find them to be far more satisfied than they were with their children in the public schools. I know firsthand because I taught in a charter school. I knew those situations firsthand.

So get better binoculars from your ivory tower Steve.

Bill –

I strongly feel that comparing the per-pupil expenditure of Lakewood and Avon is disingenuous. (You and I seem to have this same exchange every 18-months or so.)

It is my opinion that Lakewood’s student body requires more requires more resources (based on 2008-2009 Ohio Department of Education data) –

Yes, Avon spends $8001 per pupil to Lakewood’s $12,714 for a difference of $4,713. However, Lakewood spends $4,518 more than Avon on instructional expenditures and pupil support – that’s 96% of the difference. I believe this difference in expenditures is largely due to the following three points. (I realize that one student may fall into all three of these categories.)

1. Of Avon’s 3,461 students, 373, or 10.8%, have a diagnosed disability. Of Lakewood’s 5,605 students, 879, or 15.7%, have a diagnosed disability. State mandates regarding how district’s teach students with learning and physical challenges include additional specialized teacher certifications, training and equipment. Also mandated student/teacher ratio’s regarding these categories can be as low as 10 to 1. In short, students with disabilities may require three to four times the average student expenditure.

2. Of Avon’s 3,461 students, 325, or 9.4%, are considered economically disadvantaged. Of Lakewood’s 5,605 students, 2,785, or 49.7%, are considered economically disadvantaged. Just under half of Lakewood’s students may be experiencing stress at home, may not have an at home library or Internet, may not have regular doctor visits or updated prescriptions for glasses and may not be able to participate in some of the “pay to play” extracurricular options (which motivate student performance) and may be asked by the family to hold down a part time job or baby sit younger siblings. Any of these alone would impact student performance and resources needed by schools to teach. However, most students in this category exhibit multiple obstacles.

3. Of Avon’s 3,461 students, 38, or 1.1%, are Limited English Proficient. Of Lakewood’s 5,605 students, 454, or 8.1%, are Limited English Proficient. This means that Lakewood has 12 times the number of students that need to learn English as they are learning in English. These students also require additional support and resources.

However, perhaps a fourth factor may also be brought into the mix. I have read other’s opinions that Lakewood High School now offers an array of accelerated, honors and college prep coursework as compared to other districts. If this is true, this shows the commitment to primary, secondary and higher education. What a great reputation for which to be known.

Did you know, Bill and others, that 100% of Lakewood’s teachers have a Bachelor’s degree compared to 98.4% in Avon. Did you also know that 65.8% of Lakewood’s teachers have a Master’s degree versus 21.6% in Avon.

Based upon what I have been able to discern from state and local reports, it appears that the Lakewood school system has built in an infrastructure to deal with an increasing number of at-risk students (those with special needs, economic disadvantages and limits in English).

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

What really gets my goat is the inconsistency of some people.

There are those, for example, who wanted more public school accountability, often claiming that those who were in the educational business were fighting it.

So, legislators and educators worked together to achieve honest, objective, grade-to-grade accountability through standardized testing, attendance, and graduation rates.

And? Lakewood, in SPITE of all of the additional situations that David just pointed out, (THANKS DAVID!) still gets an "EXCELLENT" rating.

However you may assess the situation, that's money well spent, and proof positive that Lakewood really knows how to educate students.

Oh, and I might add that PUBLIC schools give PLENTY of chances and choices for students to succeed.

By the way, yes, the un-or under-funded mandate situation is a very real concern.

No "excuses" of any kind need to be offered, when a school district is rated "excellent".

Back to the chalkboard, er, the banjo...

In Ohio, charter schools often receive money from the school districts in which they are located. The charter schools then use tax dollars without the voter representation of a school board or ballot opportunities.

But a new tax was not created or implemented? So tax dollars earmarkd for education go to charter schools that are started by tax payers and citizen can attend? Am I missing something? Thanks

Another cost in Lakewood is our extremely wonderful gifted program that begins in 2nd grade. We unlike most districts have self-contained units that allow for the kids to move at an accelerated rate all day unlike most districts that have a pull-out program where they only have a few hours a week of advanced classes.

Also we have amazing music programs and while we have the generous Mr. Read it is still an expense.

Many districts teach to the average Joe and Jane while Lakewood teaches a variety of students at all skill levels and on top of that we make sure our kids are also educated in the arts.

I have lived elsewhere. We have left Lakewood twice and the number one factor that brought us back was the schools. And the schools are what keep us here. Schools are the most important factor in my children's lives and Lakewood's schools are top notch.

I think comparing Lakewood and Avon is like comparing apples and oranges, we are nothing alike.