The Observation Deck

"Sin" and religion were used to justify many things including

don't forget my personal favorite... Indulgences, you know where the church up to about a hundred years ago adopted the practice of telling people, "well if you can't stop sinning, at least you can purchase this lovely sin 'offset'".

Ryan Salo wrote:If a heterosexual couple friend of yours told you he was cheating on his wife what would you say? God loves you so keep doing it? If you would tell him he should stop what would you be basing that advice on?

That's a bad analogy. In this case the husband is causing harm to the wife. I fail to see how a monogamous homosexual relationship is hurting anyone.

I belong to several message boards and forums, with subjects dealing with everything from selling Pampered Chef, to parenting, to my favorite band (U2 if you're wondering) and to civics (LO). Every message board is pretty much the same, moderated affairs---so I'm just going to call it as it is...

trolling....

pay no attention to the troll---they'll go away eventually.

Fascinating discussion.

Ryan and Colleen, if I understand your points, you believe that the city should not adopt a weeklong celebration for any group - because that is pandering. I understand your position, but I think I disagree. Part of the joy of living in a small city is that we can appreciate and celebrate each other. I enjoy it when I come to council meetings and I learn about some group or other that has done something to bring pride to Lakewood. Boy Scouts, HS teams, Attractive Businesses - I think een the Lakewood Observer got an award. Sure it isn't as critical as balancing the budget - but it is important - and I don't think it takes too much time to say to our citizens - job well done.

This is a little different. This is saying thank you LBGT community for living here and making Lakewood a little stronger. Often prejudice comes from ignorance or stereotypes. Knowledge helps to wipe out these stereotypes and helps us all to appreciate each other more. With that in mind - maybe we should have more of these weeks. Maybe we should have a week that celebrates the Arab community that has joined us - they are way too often confused with stereotypes as well. Shedding light on their cultural history may be worthwhile. Likewise, I could cite the Latvian Community - although they do not suffer I believe from the same degree of prejudice as the former two.

BTW, our church the Unitarian Universalists is also a Welcoming Church. This Sunday at 9:15 there is a forum at the church on "We all need Pride" and the sermon on June 3 at 10:30 is Why Gay Pride Matters?
http://www.wsuuc.org/ Everyone is welcome.

some blokes is born to turn right handed. Others go left handed. It is a natural statistical variation.

Lynn Farris wrote:Often prejudice comes from ignorance or stereotypes. Knowledge helps to wipe out these stereotypes and helps us all to appreciate each other more.

So are you saying that anyone who thinks the gay lifestyle is morally wrong and destructive is just ignorant?

Ryan Salo wrote:

Lynn Farris wrote:Often prejudice comes from ignorance or stereotypes. Knowledge helps to wipe out these stereotypes and helps us all to appreciate each other more.

So are you saying that anyone who thinks the gay lifestyle is morally wrong and destructive is just ignorant?

the words "gay lifestyle" don't really mean anything, other than the physical act of homosexual sexual contact. It literally doesn't imply more than the words "heterosexual lifestyle". There are other combinations of words more offensive, such as "multi-level marketing scheme" or "predatory lending"...

Are you implying it to mean a certain stereotype of promiscuous homosexual men engaging in associated activities of copious amounts of disco/techno dancing, coconut rum binging, illegal narcotics, interior decorating, excessive dog grooming, ...?....

Lynn Farris wrote:Ryan and Colleen, if I understand your points, you believe that the city should not adopt a weeklong celebration for any group - because that is pandering. I understand your position, but I think I disagree. Part of the joy of living in a small city is that we can appreciate and celebrate each other.

Lynn

Let's figure this out.

36 weeks awarded to groups, first come first server. (Ryan get that Kiwanis Week first week of July)

Raffle off another 10 weeks for $20,000 a chance.

Use 4 of the last weeks for special occasions that might crop up. The USA faking another moon landing. Troops coming home, etc.

Final 4 for resting up from all the parties.

Each group has to put on a parade of at least 15 units, two floats and something like a band.

They have to file for picnic, parade, lodging, etc.

Let's have fun this year.

If Lakewood gets a Gay Pride week, there better be a damn good parade, 2+ hours on Detroit, past the LO Office.

Ryan

What was that middle one?


.

Ryan Salo wrote:So are you saying that anyone who thinks the gay lifestyle is morally wrong and destructive is just ignorant?

I can accept morally wrong as that's a personal opinion and everyone is allowed their own opinion.

But I'd love to hear the factual basis for how being gay is destructive?

Jim,

I do believe you may be on to something. Heaven knows Medina can fill their public square with activities every weekend throughout the summer which brings in visitors to eat and buy things - we could too.

Ryan,

I maybe should have chosen a better word than ignorant - perhaps lack of knowledge or experience with people who are LGBT. I certainly don't believe the lifestyle is destructive - to whom would it be? Most of the stereotypes are just downright false.

Moral is a very individualized term. There are some moral choices that are black and white - but many others that are very individual. Abortion, Stem Cell Research, the War in Iraq all carry very strong and various moral questions for example. In the past, slavery and women being allowed to work outside the home were also moral issues.

I guess I can appreciate that some churches may teach that being gay is wrong. But churches are divided on some of the "moral" questions of the day and this is one of them. The Bible mentions the acceptance of slavery approximately the same number of times that it talks against homosexuality. But it talks quite a bit more about loving one another and carrying for the sick, hungry etc. - in fact it emphasises that over almost anything else.

I will share with you a conversation that really opened my eyes when I was on a Women in the Workforce Delegation to South Africa. Of course like most Americans I knew that Apartheid was inmoral and the people that perpetuated it were wrong. Then I met a man who told me it was hard for him to realize that everything his parents had taught him, everything his church had taught him and everything his school had taught him about apartheid was wrong. He was a middle aged man and I realized how hard it was for him to overcome the teachings from everyone he had respected growing up. But he had - he was overcome with grief that he had perpetuated apartheid for so long. I guess maybe that is how I feel about this prejudice. Some of the people that are so afraid of people being different have to work hard to think that maybe, just maybe some of the things they have been taught all their life is wrong. That they need to open themselves to new ideas.

That is why this week is important - to make people rethink their prejudces.

Lynn,

Do you believe in any absolute truths? If so could you be wrong?

It is also nice to know that you can pick and chose what is correct and what is wrong out of the Bible, that must be very convenient.

most political conservatives ignore the Jesus sections almost entirely and stick with the old testament. I thought the point of Jesus was to move away from the old testament stuff, which is pretty crazy when you try reading it.

There is more in the bible against eating shrimp, lobster, shellfish, pork, and the rear end of cattle than there is mentioned of homosexuality. Today people raise lobsters on farms, and celebrate special events by eating at Red Lobster.

Morality is the product of human judgement. That being said, laws which are the result of human judgement are moral. Laws which impede making rational judgements are immoral. As the information people are enculturated with or learn scientifically changes over time, new judgements are possible through analysis and reflection.

Debating the morality or goofyness of a gay pride parade doesn't really matter when you realize that all parades are pretty goofy, and usually mess up traffic. A parades redeeming function is they are an excuse to see marching bands, and drink alcohol at the pub in the afternoon or morning.

Ryan Salo wrote:It is also nice to know that you can pick and chose what is correct and what is wrong out of the Bible, that must be very convenient.

Ryan that's a dangerous path to go down. I was a religion major in college...actually in the pre-seminary program for the Lutheran church. I can virtually guarantee you that no church out there today follows all the teachings of the Bible, old or new testament (e.g. do women cover their head at your church, sit in the back, and don't speak?).

There is a certain amount of historical perspective that must be taken into account when interpreting the Bible. You need to understand what the author of the particular book was saying in light of historical norms when it was written. Meanings of things change...what was meant 2000 years ago is completely different than what those same words or phrases might mean today.

Is there an absolute truth? In my opinion yes. But for humankind to try and pretend that any one of us is able to know it is completely vain and self-serving. God and his will are infinite and undefinable by the human mind. Why do you think there's been so much fighting over the meaning of religion? If it was easy to define the absolute truth or grasp the fullness of God, it would be pretty easy to agree.

Lynn,

Do you believe in any absolute truths? If so could you be wrong?

It is also nice to know that you can pick and chose what is correct and what is wrong out of the Bible, that must be very convenient.

Of course Ryan, I could be wrong - most of the world I believe now is Muslim - maybe they are correct. Maybe the Hindu are right. Maybe the Pagans. We can only do our best.

The Bumper Sticker that we have on our car sums up our feelings pretty well. Faith is not a Reason to Hate.
Or at least it shouldn't be - that is close to an absolute truth.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

But God gave us a brain and it is our responsibility to make the most of our talents. It is our responsibility to interpret and try to live the type of life that he laid out. But God following moral people can't even agree on the meaning or the absolute truth of the 10 commandments. The 10 Commandments in the Catholic Church are different from the ones in the Protestant Church. When the Bible tells us to keep the Sabbath holy, my orthodox Jewish friends take that as meaning no cooking, no driving but walking to church. They can't even answer the phone. But most of my Christian Friends take it with a grain of salt. Thou shall not kill is taken by many to mean just that - but others have translated it as Thou shall not commit murder. They then say that means it is okay to have a death penalty and go to war. My son recently completed class on Christian Art which tried to figure out what was meant by Thou Shall not make a Graven image. Talk about a commandment that is treated differently by the major religions.

Absolute truths? If the major religions can't even agree on Thou Shall not kill - is there one? I chose to believe that we should all work to live our lives thinking "What would Jesus do?" and try our best to do that. Of course we could follow OBism and just Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

BTW, I agree with Ryan Costa and Bryan Schwegler's questions that they raise as well.

Ryan Salo, Respectfully, can you honestly tell me that you do not pick and choose? I personally know of no one that doesn't - even my most fundamental friends. I follow the dietary laws, for example, laid down in the bible - do you? Or do you choose to ignore those?

Just my two cents after looking through this thread:

Those who are most adamantly opposed to homosexual lifestyle are often those who are hiding and denying their own tendencies.