The Observation Deck

Gary Rice wrote:I would be curious regarding Scouting's nay-sayers, as to exactly what kind of organizations they DO support?

I support the work of the Episcopal church. I'm a member of Trinity Cathedral downtown where I'm active in Cathedral leadership and am a high school youth leader. Not only is the national church open to the full and equal inclusion of homosexuals but it has a very positive agenda on social justice ministries focusing on the personal dignity of all people.

In addition I also financially support and/or participate in the Cleveland Museum of Art and the West Shore Chorale. Oh and I just made arrangements for the Lakewood Public Library in my estate planning.

I won't support any organization that officially discriminates. I grew up Lutheran (Missouri Synod for those of you in the know ) but I left because of their intolerance. It was sad, I loved the church I grew up in, St. Paul (right by the library), but I couldn't financially or tacitly support their views.

I also won't give my business to companies or organizations that discriminate. For long-term business relationships like banking, etc I look for their anti-discrimination policy before I decide to give them my time and business.

And to bring us back to the positives of Lakewood, it's one of the reasons I've chose this fine city to make my permanent home.

One day, the same will be true for homosexuals. I guarantee we'll look back 50 years from now see the utter stupidity of our discrimination.

Ah, won't that be nice?

I look forward to the day when legalized discrimination against gays and lesbians is no longer sanctioned by the U.S. government. But until "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is repealed, until gays and lesbians have the same legal protections for their families as straight, married couples, until gay people can't be fired simply for being gay, well, then we will still see institutionalized discrimination in some of our most respected and beloved organizations.

But it's definitely nice to see that there are so many of you with open minds and open hearts who understand that most gays and lesbians just want to live our lives, do our jobs, raise our children, love our partners, enjoy our friends and family, and just "be" without feeling like we are not entitled to the same rights as everyone else. Thank you for helping us with your voices and your support.

Laurie

Bryan Schwegler wrote:

However tolerant a local chapter might be, the organization itself is bigoted. By being a member, you espouse and financially support the bigotry. It would be different if it were individual troops or members, but it is the official position of the BSA.

Bullfeathers.

Do you realize how offensive this type of writing might be, to the hard working decent volunteers of the Scouts?

And I, for one, find your remark highly offensive.

Using this person's same logic, one might not be a church member because of one of their policies, or problems.

And, Bryan, I see that you felt the need to do exactly that. That is your right, of course. It is America.

One might renounce their citizenship, because they disagree with some aspect of national policy.

One might keep take their child out of school because they do not agree where the bake sale money goes.

Scouts, as a private organization like any other, have the right to determine their own policies. Since they stand for "God and Country", an atheist would no doubt have a problem with that. As far as the gay issue is concerned, irrespective of my personal opinion, there is still widespread and unsettled national controversy with that topic, as you well know.

Why some people feel the need to interject these issues into Scouting is beyond me.

I suppose people want to tear down any institution that they can, for some international utopian politically correct dream, I don't really know

I believe old' Ben Franklin said "Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything"

Never more true than now, I guess.

You might want to also look into how the Scouts are funded. I think you'd learn a thing or two.

This is really starting to get tiresome.

Gary Rice wrote:Do you realize how offensive this type of tripe is to the hard working decent volunteers of the Scouts?

And I, for one, find your remark highly offensive.

I'm sorry if you find it offensive Gary, but the truth is the BSA official position is of discrimination against homosexuals. I can't change that, it is what it is.

My stand is not against individual scouts, it's against that policy of the national organization.

Why some people feel the need to interject these issues into Scouting is beyond me.

No one is interjecting the issues into scouting. The cold hard truth is that the BSA has an official policy against homosexuals. It's nothing anyone is making up, it is something they chose to do themselves.

I suppose people want to tear down any institution that they can, for some international utopian politically correct dream, I don't really know.

I listed in a post earlier a bunch of great civic institutions I support. Just because I don't support the same institutions doesn't mean I'm out to tear them all down.

If by "politically correct" you mean a society where everyone is truly treated as an equal human being, then I guess yes, that's what I want.

I believe old' Ben Franklin said "Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything"

Never more true than now, I guess.

I stand for a lot of things and I support many great civic institutions as my earlier post indicates.

You might want to also look into how the Scouts are funded. I think you'd learn a thing or to.

This is really starting to get tiresome.

I'm not sure what their funding has to do with them officially discriminating against homosexuals or justifying the action.

As for getting tiresome, perhaps if you were part of the group that is actively discriminated against, you would see it differently.

Imagine where we'd be today if the great civil rights leaders "tired" of defending their right to equality?

Gary, again I'm sorry if it offended you, but you need to not personalize my dislike for the policies of the national BSA and any individual scout. There are fine people who have been or are scouts, I have no intent to offend those people.

Perhaps I should just learn to stay out of these hot button topics.

Hey Bryan,

Of course you should not stay away from hot button topics. I understand where you are coming from, and I really appreciate your support for so many fine institutions.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts as well. Usually, anyway :-)

We can discuss many topics without getting personal, and I'm sorry if you felt that I was doing so with you. Not my intent, by a long shot.

E-mails are such lousy things. They do not communicate inflection, and we can't correct our thinking immediately, if we make an overstatement.

I just came from the Scout banjo sing-along, where children of all types, several races, and both genders had a blast making music with instruments that they, themselves, made.

Bryan, I do not dispute your points about inclusion and acceptance being areas of concern, nor do I necessarily condone some of the policies that remain with some groups that I've worked with.

I'm just about helping children..all children.

As a teacher, I never had any control over who walked into my special ed. class. I had to advocate for them with the staff, their peers, and sometimes, even their parents!

Today, one of the little girls in the sing-a-long played her rattle toy a bit too hard. The little beads went all over the floor. She then, with the help of her mother and brother, picked them all up. When the singing was over the little pre-schooler ran over to me and gave me the biggest hug you ever saw.

That's what positive youth group experiences are all about.

In America, Boy Scouting, at least in theory, does not mix with girls until the teen years and the Venture Crews (Many countries do co-ed Scouting) but here we were today- boys and girls, sisters and brothers, parents, uncles, brothers, sisters! What a mix!

Gay? Straight? Atheist? Baptist? Who knows?

No one asked.

We just all sang.

One day, you will probably have children, if you do not already. As you already know, so many things in life involve compromise; particularly in the family.

What church? what type of school? What car to buy? Where to live? (You made a GREAT choice with that one! :-)

All of these will involve some give-and-take, and that's the way I feel about groups that I am a part of.

One things for sure, at least for me. I think you have a better chance of reforming something from within, than without.

But yes, at times that can be tiring too. My own arms are getting weak. You need to help pick up the relay stick, when us old fogies start to lose our grip.

I believe Mother Teresa once said that we could not all do great things, but that we could all do small things in a great way.

Oh yeah, Civil Rights?

In the 1960's, I was in Birmingham, Montgomery, Gadsden, Anniston....

So yeah, I appreciate the points that you guys are making.

I just don't want you to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

Scouts simply do too much good.

Peace, cue that banjo up...

"We shall...."

Bryan -

The you take issue with the BSA national policies regarding homosexuality.

I do to.

You state you don't have anything against individual scouts.

Good.

There are a LOT of levels in between the two. There are good troops, good packs, and good councils. Yes, there is a LOT a lot of work to do - but there are good people doing it every day.

You make a great point about racial diversity in the scouts. Now - a boy of any race, color, national origin can join. It changed. And it changed through sustained social pressures and through the efforts of many fine educated people within the organization. Not by simply bashing the organization and its members. It is didn't happen overnight - but it did happen.

I believe that change will happen again to shed the ugly mask intolerance for homosexuals.

As for the rights of a private institution... While I deplore the kkk I would defend their right to assemble and maintain their membership however they see fit. Once we let the government into one private institution - the path is laid for it to manifest itself within others.

My favorite quote from my favorite historical figure says it far better than I ever could:


"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself."

~Thomas Paine

In the meanwhile, we will let our son enjoy the scouts, growing and developing many skills while learning to respect himself and others.

And when the topic of homosexuals comes up - we will make sure the he understands that we believe in loving and supporting ALL people, however God has made them. And that God made each and every one of us different in many ways - some that can be seen and some that cannot seen. And it is the difference between us all that makes life a thing of beauty. And that it is our differences that we should celebrate and be thankful for.

We will teach our children that some institutions have rules that were made out of ignorance and fear. And that we can all work to change the position of ignorance and fear through our efforts and through our example of love and tolerance.

Charyn

I've got to say I have a first year Boy Scout and I am so proud of him. He has truly grown in this organization. He's already earned the rank of Second Class! I did have some hesitation because of the negative press for Boy Scouts but my Eagle Scout husband wanted his son to experience scouts. I've seen no evidence of gay bashing or even any mention of the group's position on homosexuality. As for the atheist piece, both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts are depended on the churches to house them. The whole philosophy of both has some basis on religious teachings. I'm ok with that I guess. If I had a different religious take then I probably would chose to find another extracurricular for my son. The first camp out I was so impressed. The boys made a menu of what they had planned to eat for the weekend. Each camper pitched in a bit of money and then a few went shopping. No mom interference allowed. They planned, purchased and cooked their meals for an entire weekend with only a little guidance from the Scoutmaster and what is even cooler is that it has carried through. Occasionally, I get a "Mom, can I cook". He is learning so much in such a hands on way. Mr. Rice your name has been passed on to us as someone who teaches citizenship so I'm sure we will be calling you soon.

Toni

Toni,

Just let me know. I work with all 3 citizenship merit badges.

Actually, I have been able to help Scouts complete over three hundred merit badges since 1994.

Be sure that the Scoutmaster signs their approval on the blue card first, and that your son plans to have another Scout present, per youth protection guidelines.

Also, Scouts need to present themselves to the merit badge counselor having good knowledge of the subject matter's requirements ahead of time.

There should be a troop library with merit badge books available for your son's use.

1. I realize this is Lakewood, a prominent gay city (although some want to deny it, for some reason). 2. I don't have a personal vendetta against gays, but I think something obvious needs to be said.

Do you want your 10-year old (last I knew BSA was for 10 to eighteen) son sleeping in a tent with a gay 17 year old who is out of the closet? Do you want your son sleeping in a tent with a gay male adult? Do you want your 13 year old daughter sleeping in a tent with a 17 year old straight boy? with an adult male? If any of those scenarios are okay with you, well at least you are being politically correct...however I hope nothing bad happens to your child ):

Doug

First, I'm sorry I even brought this up. This isn't doing any good for Lakewood. As I said, I was surprised at the policy, and decided to make a new topic on it.

MY POINT THOUGH: I plead ignorance. I did not know, until watching the show on B.S.A. that it WAS a religeous backed organization. As I said, I was in scouts, but at that time there was no policy regarding these two topics and if there was, I was totally unaware of them.

My evaluation is that that Boy Scouts, in general is a fine organization, and like any other PRIVATE or RELIGEOUS organization it is allowed to have it's own policies regarding whatever.

There are organizations in Lakewood that will not let ME in them, due to their policies. I'm not taking anyone to court over it.
There are national organizations that will not let me in them, due to whatever policies.

Gary, I wish I had never brought this up.
I do see now, that many people have strong feelings on this, but if everyone remembers it IS a PRIVATE organization, then it is subject to opinion just like any church or lodge etc..

Mark Allan Crnolatas
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www.markproject.com
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Mark,

You did what you thought was right.

Every topic is important to the poster. Like you, I've posted a few things and then thought, "Now why did I do THAT?"

Everyone has a frame of reference. I give talks on the Holocaust. Some of the first people murdered by the Nazis in Poland, were in a troop of Boy Scouts.

Of course, they were followed by many more murders.

The Jews, of course suffered the most as a group, but there were more.

Masonic groups were persecuted, with many thousands going to the camps to perish.

Gypsies, (Roma) those with infirmities, political prisoners, religious people, the list goes on and on.

And Homosexuals, among others.

They wore a pink triangle, religious prisoners wore a purple one. Political prisoners, a red one, and so on.

Was this type of horror a one time thing, or did it happen here?

Regarding Native Americans? In 1776, there were hundreds of towns in Ohio, only they were Native American. When Ohio became a state in 1803, there were only a few. Where did the Native Americans go in just 27 short years? You know the answer, don't you?

Their bones lie under your feet.

My grandfather told me never to tell anyone that I was part Indian, or I might never be able to get a job, or worse....

My point is simply this. People are sensitive to their heritage, or to their lifestyle, particularly those who have suffered persecution.

We need to understand this, and be careful how we approach these tough issues.

And yes, at the same time, people want to be able to meet in private groups that reflect their culture, their faith, their morals, and their values.

Both points are understandable.

Wisdom is not an easy or simple thing. It is one thing to mouth the word "toleration" and another to practice it.

What does the word mean exactly? Is there really a universal toleration, or is it culturally based?

Does acceptance mean acquiescence? Can we be so sure of our own righteousness?

Are we all right?

All wrong?

It depends whether you feel that values are absolute, or relative, I suppose.

Speaking for me, I just want to help the young people. I'm not sure how much I can help the old ones.

DougHuntingdon wrote:I don't have a personal vendetta against gays, but I think something obvious needs to be said.

Do you want your 10-year old (last I knew BSA was for 10 to eighteen) son sleeping in a tent with a gay 17 year old who is out of the closet? Do you want your son sleeping in a tent with a gay male adult? Do you want your 13 year old daughter sleeping in a tent with a 17 year old straight boy? with an adult male? If any of those scenarios are okay with you, well at least you are being politically correct...however I hope nothing bad happens to your child ):

Doug

Wow. That's a pretty ignorant thing to say, Doug. It's attitudes like this that perpetuate the "gay men are pedophiles" mentality. There are just so many things that are offensive about your post, I don't even know where to begin. This is not about being politically correct. It's about treating people equally and with respect, regardless of sexual orientation. Gay people are not wild animals who can't control their urges. Nor do most "17 year olds who are out of the closet" (or in the closet, for that matter) have any interest in sleeping with 10-year-old boys. What you mention in your post is pedophilia, and that is not synonymous with being gay. In fact, statistics show that the overwhelming number of pedophiles are actually straight (married) men.

Sorry, Doug, but your post, plain and simple, was just homophobic.

Thanks for sharing your attitudes, though. Now I know where you stand on issues pertaining to gay people. And now I know to stay away from you.

Sorry, Doug, but your post, plain and simple, was just homophobic

Well said Laurie.

Beyond your entirely accurate and appropriate interpretation of the old "homosexuals are all pedophiles" mindset, (with, perhaps a tinge of the ever popular "gays are all out to convert straights" mindset), Doug's post, unfortunately, is devoid of any of the realities involved in scouting.

I was the leader of a Venture Crew. For those without knowledge, that is co-ed scouting. We took two trips to Algonquin Provincial Park, for backwoods canoeing/camping with a mixed crew, backwoods camping in Pa. and NY. As I recall, there was no sharing of tents between the girls and boys. Chalk it up to adult leadership involved, or just common sense, but it's simply something that would not have occurred.

As to the other nightmare scenario, suffice it to say I never saw any 17 year who would tent with a 10 year old. Just didn't happen. Now, if you had a 17 year old pedophile (straight or gay) searching for a victim, unless the adult leadership was completely devoid of any rationality, such a character would not be a part of the program.

Jeff

If we can cool this down, and move from generalizations and hard words for a moment, the fact remains that we are concerned about about a program for young people where personal responsibility, based on rock-solid principles, is developed.

I wish that people having agendas left, right, up, or down, would consider that we are talking about youth character development here, and that they might perhaps, develop a little more of their own.

If a questionable issue arises in a supervised youth group of any kind, it is handled with the leaders, the parents, and when necessary, the authorities.

We would all agree, I am sure, that young people need to feel safety and acceptance, and self-worth, when participating in any form of group activity.

When we put young people first, it is easy to put the rest of it into perspective.

I would hope that persons feeling the need to continue to debate the larger issues here, would move them to another thread, for the sake of any Scouts who might be reading all of this.

I tend to agree with Mark. I believe that this discussion is not the kind of thing that serves the best interests of Lakewood.