The Observation Deck

Michael Loje wrote:The Lakewood restaurants I frequent most are the Beer Engine, and the MerryArts on Mondays and Thursdays. If that qualifies me as rarefied, then I'me guilty. But even at those places, Lakewood residents are not in the majority of customers. And when you speak of Speedy's at Bunts and Lakewood Hts, or McDonalds, Lakewood residents are not taking their families there for dinner. People passing through go there for a fast bite. Most families, though, do what Rhonda and I do 90% of the time; we eat at home.

Michael

Do you ever worry about paying for a dinner? I know Essi doesn't. I know I don't. In Lakewood that is rarefied air.

If you do not think the fast food is feeding Lakewoodites, drive in one between 3:30 and 7pm, and the lines out the end of the lane. You may think people just driving through Lakewood but I beg to differ. Fast food especially in areas without a lot of grocery stores has unfortunately become meal of choice. This is part of many studies on obesity in urban and inner ring areas. Giant sodas for $0.79. Dinner for 6 for $10, ease of acquiring while parents work 2 or more jobs.

And at the same time. Let's look at Lakewood restaurant scene as a destination. What are your top ten restaurants? Now take those top ten restaurants and drop them into an area that goes west to Avon Lake east to Downtown Cleveland, south to Brookpark Road. What are the best in that area? Where do Lakewood's top ten figure into that list? OK, now the rest are just places to get food on different levels. People chose them based on comfort level, price, food, other choices in the area, etc. and we start to get an pretty good idea where it all falls, and fails.

Brian Essi, Mike Loje and Jim O'Bryan and many, many others eat a majority of meals at home. Correct? So we just made the problem tougher on all.

We all seem to be in agreement that one of the best Asian restaurants in town was Wu's. Which moved, taking us with it, and leaving the other 10 Asian places in town...

Ground Beef is the staple of Lakewood restaurants, best burger, Coffee Pot, then West End, then...

Which brings us back to the real question Do we need more restaurants? Should the city subsidize any of them?

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Jim, if even one third of Lakewood, 17,000 people, went out to dinner every night, all to fast food places in Lakewood, there would be lines of people, quarter mile lines in drive thru's and traffic jams all over the place. Think about it.
Out of curiosity, how does Brian Essi, Mike Loje and Jim O'Bryan eating at home make any problem"tougher on all"?

Michael Loje wrote:Out of curiosity, how does Brian Essi, Mike Loje and Jim O'Bryan eating at home make any problem"tougher on all"?

The list that questioned "rarefied air."

Eating at home, means less at restaurants. In a place with an average of 27.6 places per square mile to find food it gets lean finding customers pretty quickly.

Mike

The real point of the discussion was 1) over saturation, 2) Are we really a destination city, 3) Should restaurants be subsidize by the City of Lakewood?

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I’m not sure we are as much of a destination city as we’d like to believe.

This was a convo I had at Costco with a woman from Avon. As we were discussing interesting places to eat, I mentioned a place in Lakewood. She said, “oh wait, is that in Lakewood? I don’t go east of Westgate,”

I almost fell over in disbelief. This wasn’t an elderly woman or someone who didn’t own a car. This was a woman from a very upscale area who didn’t find it agreeable to venture into the “city” to enjoy a nice meal.

The scary thing is that she’s not an anomaly. There are places to eat in Avon, Avon Lake, Westlake, Rocky River, etc. and there are people quite content to remain in their safe cocoon and not ever have a need to venture too far.

If Lakewood IS a destination, then it’s competing with every other “hot” restaurant out there, and there certainly are lots of them.

Wow--- kind of a skeezy feeling knowing that you're in a ghetto if you're East of Wagar Road!

Stan Austin wrote:Wow--- kind of a skeezy feeling knowing that you're in a ghetto if you're East of Wagar Road!

Well according to a formerly prominent resident, the area of Arthur south of Madison was said to be equivalent to living in East Cleveland.

The Friday lunch guys I see every week at the Beer Engine, geographically, are widespread;
Two are from Rocky River, one from Cleveland Heights(he works in West Park), one is from Westlake, and me, I'm from Lakewood. I don't think our group is out of the ordinary.
Also, when I go to happy hour at places like Sarita or Pier W, I always bump into people I know from the east side. So get over it, everybody; people from outside of Lakewood DO frequent Lakewood restaurants.

Michael Loje wrote:The Friday lunch guys I see every week at the Beer Engine, geographically, are widespread;
Two are from Rocky River, one from Cleveland Heights(he works in West Park), one is from Westlake, and me, I'm from Lakewood. I don't think our group is out of the ordinary.
Also, when I go to happy hour at places like Sarita or Pier W, I always bump into people I know from the east side. So get over it, everybody; people from outside of Lakewood DO frequent Lakewood restaurants.

OH

Thanks for clearing that up Mike.

So now you a person that eats most meals at home is in restaurants 5 nights a week. With friends from all over and always some from the east side..



Next time you are in Sarita ask how they are doing Monday-Thursday. Ask the owner if he thinks there are too many restaurants.

My bad, what do I know about it, pencil me "over it."

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Well, Jim, there you go again. If I go out to lunch once a week, and dinner once every two or three weeks, I don't understand how you translate that into "five night a week". And the reason I mention the east side, I spent my first 25 years on the east side.
And as far as this whole topic goes, I think you are confused about subsidies given to developers. Developers DO NOT pass subsidies to their tenants, in this case restaurants, developers keep them for themselves.

Lakewood IS a food destination. There are still food deserts like North Olmsted etc... that have few choices that aren't national chains and aren't bar food. Even friends of mine in Cleveland Heights which used to be a bigger food destination come over to this side of town all of the time. They complain that we get all of the new stuff and our choices by volume are so much better. They haven't had anything really new open up over there in a while.

The bigger picture or issue is that the food landscape has changed. A notable Cleveland chef with at least four highly successful restaurants has said that he feels the most challenging current issue lies in the "foodie culture" run amok. So many are all about the NEWEST and most instagrammable trendy place. His places would be considered old in that mindset. He stresses to keep patronizing your favorites, even if they aren't the newest. So eventually what shakes out is that we have a lot of very good choices and places to spend our money and the ones that might not be that good or aren't desirable for whatever reason (cost, service) will fall away. If your old favorites are still throwing down good food and service, please keep going there.

Michael Loje wrote:Well, Jim, there you go again. If I go out to lunch once a week, and dinner once every two or three weeks, I don't understand how you translate that into "five night a week". And the reason I mention the east side, I spent my first 25 years on the east side.
And as far as this whole topic goes, I think you are confused about subsidies given to developers. Developers DO NOT pass subsidies to their tenants, in this case restaurants, developers keep them for themselves.

Mike

I can only take your comments as you put them out there.

I too not only go to the east side, south side west side I work in those places everyday.

I am asking you to speak to the owners, I think you will get a different opinion. Read Val's post.

Val

Good post, you nailed it. We have become a food destination, but it is in a "shiny what's new" period of restaurants.

The way I sum this culture is up. Sitting in the West End Tavern one night, next to two millenials/hipsters (not a slam). One turns to the other and said, "How did you like that beer?" "Well it was OK, but I would never order it again, how about you, did you like the one you got?" "Naw I would never order it again!" A this point I turned and asked as the old man at the bar, "Why would you order beers you do not like?" What followed was a discussion about trying new things, trendy things, things they had read about, and finding the new gem to put out on social media. "One turned to me and asked, "So what are you drinking?" I responded, "Glenlivet it is the bicycle I ride, quality and taste are always there, and I know exactly how long I can ride it."

SO, is it dangerous to take a bedroom community and reprogram it as a food destination community, in a period of time when trends last weeks, if not days. And even restaurateurs and purveyors that have dedicated their lives and futures to delivering quality, and in some cases much more to a community, can die overnight? Is it smart to look and build long term, or the flash moment?

I say this knowing, we have little say over what comes here, outside of regulations. Which would only make more businesses run from the community. It is a razor's edge we walk, going "cool" over long term stability. For over a 100 years Lakewood made it bones being the best place would could be to raise a family, and end the day. WE soent hundreds of millions to build libraries and schools. A lot of that is seemingly squandered in desperate attempt to be more, to many that seem 1) rarely happy, 2) If happy only for a fleeting moment. Add in the additional cost to law enforcement and city services that come with being a destination over being a bedroom community, and I think it is a fair topic of conversation.

Mike

I encourage you to go to any established restaurant, that serves quality food. Pull them to the side and ask... "Do you think Lakewood needs more restaurants?" "Has the quantity affected your bottom line?"

Notice I said quality established restaurants. Now think about the ones that are not in today's top ten.

In a county losing 15.7 people a day, in an area where every community is trying to become the next foodville, in a community that spent hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars on education, and educating our youth. Is it the best plan?

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Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Michael Loje wrote:Well, Jim, there you go again. If I go out to lunch once a week, and dinner once every two or three weeks, I don't understand how you translate that into "five night a week". And the reason I mention the east side, I spent my first 25 years on the east side.
And as far as this whole topic goes, I think you are confused about subsidies given to developers. Developers DO NOT pass subsidies to their tenants, in this case restaurants, developers keep them for themselves.

Mike

I can only take your comments as you put them out there.

I too not only go to the east side, south side west side I work in those places everyday.

I am asking you to speak to the owners, I think you will get a different opinion. Read Val's post.

Val

Good post, you nailed it. We have become a food destination, but it is in a "shiny what's new" period of restaurants.


SO, is it dangerous to take a bedroom community and reprogram it as a food destination community, in a period of time when trends last weeks, if not days. And even restaurateurs and purveyors that have dedicated their lives and futures to delivering quality, and in some cases much more to a community, can die overnight? Is it smart to look and build long term, or the flash moment?

I say this knowing, we have little say over what comes here, outside of regulations. Which would only make more businesses run from the community. It is a razor's edge we walk, going "cool" over long term stability. For over a 100 years Lakewood made it bones being the best place would could be to raise a family, and end the day. WE soent hundreds of millions to build libraries and schools. A lot of that is seemingly squandered in desperate attempt to be more, to many that seem 1) rarely happy, 2) If happy only for a fleeting moment. Add in the additional cost to law enforcement and city services that come with being a destination over being a bedroom community, and I think it is a fair topic of conversation.

Mike

I encourage you to go to any established restaurant, that serves quality food. Pull them to the side and ask... "Do you think Lakewood needs more restaurants?" "Has the quantity affected your bottom line?"

Notice I said quality established restaurants. Now think about the ones that are not in today's top ten.

In a county losing 15.7 people a day, in an area where every community is trying to become the next foodville, in a community that spent hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars on education, and educating our youth. Is it the best plan?

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Nope. I am pretty much on the same page as Michael here. Sharing that anecdote wasn't meant to be taken as a referendum and spun into what you require of your agenda in this conversation. But here we are. Restaurant purveyors are choosing Lakewood- no one is TRYING to make it into Foodville. It is a good environment and lends towards making it if you can hang in there. I think B2B to a certain extent benefitted from its proximity to Melt and Deagans... likely picked up customers when those places had a long wait. They might have held on LONGER because of the options nearby, rather than because of competition. Never do I feel that I wish we had FEWER options in Lakewood- I just try to be cognizant of spreading my dollars around to places I hope will stay.

The way I sum this culture is up. Sitting in the West End Tavern one night, next to two millenials/hipsters (not a slam). One turns to the other and said, "How did you like that beer?" "Well it was OK, but I would never order it again, how about you, did you like the one you got?" "Naw I would never order it again!" A this point I turned and asked as the old man at the bar, "Why would you order beers you do not like?" What followed was a discussion about trying new things, trendy things, things they had read about, and finding the new gem to put out on social media. "One turned to me and asked, "So what are you drinking?" I responded, "Glenlivet it is the bicycle I ride, quality and taste are always there, and I know exactly how long I can ride it."

I order things to try them all of the time- if they are ok, it doesn't make the regular rotation. If it's great, it makes the cut for stuff I am willing to order again. Don't get the point here... you sound a little curmudgeonly. #getoffmylawn

Valerie Molinski wrote:

So many are all about the NEWEST and most instagrammable trendy place.

Bingo.

This is a problem that is not confined to restaurants. It permeates our society.

I’ve been saying this for awhile in regards to development. All you need to do is look at shopping centers. Or lifestyle centers or whatever new name they give them. They build a strip or a center, it gets lots of traffic, then after some time it’s no longer cool. A new place opens down the street and the Whole Foods and Target move to the shiny new place, as do the customers, then the old place sits and deteriorates.

Look at Chagrin Blvd and Woodmere. All the businesses, like Whole Foods, are moving to the new Pinecrest. Legacy Village drew from Beachwood Mall. Avon Commons impacted Great Northern.

I could go on with so many examples of how a new mall, shopping strip, or shopping lifestyle center left tons of empty storefronts in its wake.

It’s just not sustainable or healthy or environmentally sound.

[quote="Jim O'Bryan]

The way I sum this culture is up. Sitting in the West End Tavern one night, next to two millenials/hipsters (not a slam). One turns to the other and said, "How did you like that beer?" "Well it was OK, but I would never order it again, how about you, did you like the one you got?" "Naw I would never order it again!" A this point I turned and asked as the old man at the bar, "Why would you order beers you do not like?" What followed was a discussion about trying new things, trendy things, things they had read about, and finding the new gem to put out on social media. "One turned to me and asked, "So what are you drinking?" I responded, "Glenlivet it is the bicycle I ride, quality and taste are always there, and I know exactly how long I can ride it."

[/quote]

Not sure how you are summing up a culture here. Are you saying that it is GOOD not to try new things? You specifically write that you asked "Why would you order beers you do not like?" yet your story clearly says that they tried something new. Ergo, obviously they did not know they did not like it until they tried it.

Are you saying that everyone should just eat and drink what they are comfortable with and never get out of their comfort zone? How could anything new EVER survive with that attitude?

Matthew Lee wrote: Not sure how you are summing up a culture here. Are you saying that it is GOOD not to try new things? You specifically right that you asked "Why would you order beers you do not like?" yet your story clearly says that they tried something new. Ergo, obviously they did not know they did not like it until they tried it.

Are you saying that everyone should just eat and drink what they are comfortable with and never get out of their comfort zone? How could anything new EVER survive with that attitude?

RIGHT? So weird.