bentleymike wrote:
I took some time to read through the proposals this weekend. There are two I particular like. I don't want to thread drift here, but I would be interested to see people's thoughts on the five, and what they truly would like to see out of the property now.
I would like to see the non-compete lifted from the property so it can be properly vetted as to its best use. Can we wait until an active case is given its day in court? The noncompete is very likely illegal. Until these issues are resolved, the proposals are irrelevant.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:34 pm
by Dan Alaimo
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
bentleymike wrote:A couple of things here...
First, Mr. Alaimo, I don't want to speak for Councilman O'Malley, but, maybe he went the way of the vote in the city.
Second, to answer your question Jim, it seems people can be cordial. It also seems that no one made the past arguments of bringing back the hospital.
I took some time to read through the proposals this weekend. There are two I particular like. I don't want to thread drift here, but I would be interested to see people's thoughts on the five, and what they truly would like to see out of the property now.
Mike
That would be thread drift, post to new thread please.
Also it would seem the residents can move on.
So now the first step taken. Will City Hall take the second? Is City Hall to help mend the divide?
We found out it is easy to do.
Release the documents so that we can move on completely, with trust.
Start the healing now.
.
'scuse me Jim if I'm promoting any drift in this thread, but several things:
--I don't play the banjo, and I don't have the command of emojis that Gary has, but I share his desire for greater civility in Lakewood, and I think this thread has been a good thing. I write this in the spirit of community dialog.
--On O'Malley and the hospital vote: it pains me no end to revisit this issue but the vote was close but decisive, and I believe I was one of the first on the Deck to concede the results. That said, the vote was close, yet Council acted unanimously. I don't think such unanimity was representative of "the way of the vote." That relates directly to our future leadership. And I wish Dan O'Malley would speak for himself. The problem I had at the time was he didn't explain himself.
--and here's where I think Jim sees the thread drifting: I'm not clear what proposals you are referring to. If they are driftwood, please do start a new thread and let's discuss them there.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:47 pm
by Bridget Conant
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science As A Candle In The Dark
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:46 am
by cmager
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Mike, that would be thread drift, post to new thread please. Also it would seem the residents can move on. So now the first step taken. Will City Hall take the second? Is City Hall to help mend the divide? We found out it is easy to do.
Release the documents so that we can move on completely, with trust. Start the healing now.
Meh. Release the documents so that independent prosecutors can plan the prosecution of the bad actors involved in this fraud.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:19 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Dan Alaimo wrote:
'scuse me Jim if I'm promoting any drift in this thread, but several things:
--I don't play the banjo, and I don't have the command of emojis that Gary has, but I share his desire for greater civility in Lakewood, and I think this thread has been a good thing. I write this in the spirit of community dialog.
--On O'Malley and the hospital vote: it pains me no end to revisit this issue but the vote was close but decisive, and I believe I was one of the first on the Deck to concede the results. That said, the vote was close, yet Council acted unanimously. I don't think such unanimity was representative of "the way of the vote." That relates directly to our future leadership. And I wish Dan O'Malley would speak for himself. The problem I had at the time was he didn't explain himself.
--and here's where I think Jim sees the thread drifting: I'm not clear what proposals you are referring to. If they are driftwood, please do start a new thread and let's discuss them there.
Dan
It wasn't you promoting it, I was answering Mike's question if talking about the new proposals would be thread drift, and warrants a new thread.
If I remember Councilman O'Malley was not allowed to vote on the Hospital deal, as it was hurried through before he was sworn in.
.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:24 am
by Jim O'Bryan
cmager wrote:
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Mike, that would be thread drift, post to new thread please. Also it would seem the residents can move on. So now the first step taken. Will City Hall take the second? Is City Hall to help mend the divide? We found out it is easy to do.
Release the documents so that we can move on completely, with trust. Start the healing now.
Meh. Release the documents so that independent prosecutors can plan the prosecution of the bad actors involved in this fraud.
My original observations from yesterday...
1) 90% no longer mention saving the hospital. The City has moved on from that.
2) Some haters are just haters no matter what. The Deck has no personality, it is merely a mirror of the poster, and insight into their heads, and groups.
3) People are getting tired of being lied to by government officials, on every level.
How can anyone respect new leaders, that are more interested in sweeping dirt under a rug and keeping the status norm in place?
We should not be desperate for "leaders" like Sam O'Bullock and Tom O'Leary, that sign on for political motives instead of the community.
cmager
While I have accused some of lying and covering up. Let's look at the documents, now that the city has cooled down, from historical stand point as well as the next steps we take.
This has been a catastrophic rollout, even the mayor and law director have called it "a flawed process," how do we not take a breath look at the facts, then proceed.
Otherwise this is like letting someone steal your wallet, then walk away saying, "Don't worry I'll invest it for you too."
Pushing ahead leads to the cover-up conspiracies and stops the healing.
Mayor Summers, do the right thing, release the documents on your "flawed process."
.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:49 am
by mjkuhns
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Otherwise this is like letting someone steal your wallet, then walk away saying, "Don't worry I'll invest it for you too."
That's a keeper.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:19 am
by Gary Rice
I think that we all probably understand that there is ample opportunity for misunderstanding and mistrust whenever humans communicate.
This is particularly true when a community like ours goes through controversy.
Losing such a valuable asset as our hospital was indeed a trauma, leading to many unanswered questions that still haunt us on many levels.
...and those questions indeed cry out for answers.
Admittedly too, those questions have raised serious impediments to the possibility of a community banjo sing-a-long happening anytime soon.
Still, it is vitally crucial that we work towards that sing-a-long.
One of my biggest problems as a dialogue advocate has been that so many people want to wait until more of those questions are resolved before moving forward. They are genuinely afraid that stuff will get swept under the rug. They sometimes have understandably, but unfairly, wanted to cast me and other conflict-resolution oriented people as either being purposefully willing, or naive unwitting tools of the status-quo.
T'ain't so. Conflict resolution, by its very nature, takes no side.
Truly, it's that trust and integrity factor that comes into play for each of us. People need to understand that working together on the essential stuff going forward will strengthen our community. Whatever might have happened in the past that was "wrong" in our city will likely be determined in some future court of law (or the ballot box) anyway, and not necessarily in chat room forums like this one.
Moving forward and working together as a community need to be (almost )totally unrelated to past grievances.
Back to the banjo...
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:47 am
by Brian Essi
Gary Rice wrote:
Moving forward and working together as a community need to be (almost )totally unrelated to past grievances.
Mr. Rice,
If only that was true, I would run out a buy a banjo and beg you to teach me how to play it.
Forgiveness does not require a person to accept ongoing abuse and "working together" with the wrongdoers.
I respect what Mr. Bentley is trying to do, but the real and predictable consequence of "moving on" is that the wrongdoing will continue and get worse.
And in Lakewood, the wrongdoing is being be documented---it will happen again tonight at City Hall just after 6:00 pm, and two weeks from tonight, and nearly every day in between behind closed doors in the executive offices at City Hall....
In other words, "perpetual wrongdoing" is occurring in Lakewood--embracing it is not the solution.
One, people have been making proposals to cooperate for the best interests of the city for some time. On Feb. 11, 2016, Kevin Young said to City Council: "what we hope, is that this will be the beginning of a collaborative effort, where some of the finest minds in the city can come together, donate their time, and work with you."*
He was literally the official spokesperson for Save Lakewood Hospital. And he made those particular remarks after citizens easily collected enough signatures to require one of two options: the city of Lakewood could reverse course and reconsider, or else hold an adversarial public referendum campaign. We know which option prevailed, and who made that choice. (I know also that this was by no means the only time someone made such a proposal to Lakewood officials, either.)
Two, I have spent a lot of time dwelling on conflict. I wrote an entire book about two individuals—whom I believe were intelligent, fair-minded, reasonable, and even committed to largely the same commendable goals—who nonetheless spent years in a feud which spread throughout the institutions that they led. I'm not here to shill, so I'll give away the ending: they never found a resolution.
* Approximately 7m35s to 9m11s
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:21 pm
by Gary Rice
Brian, All,
That's why I included the qualifier (almost) along with that wink, but of course, I'm sure that Brian of all people caught that one.
Remember "Доверяй, но проверяй"? (Doveryai, no proveryai)?
President Reagan and the Soviets?
"Trust but verify"?
High stakes negotiations in sometimes adversarial situations?
As an attorney, Brian was obviously highly trained in dealing with adversarial situations.
As an educator, I was trained in the fine art of getting kids to get along together, and that also sometimes involved negotiations with potential playground adversaries.
Oh, how I miss my detention pad sometimes....
Believe it or not, I do not disagree with Brian nearly as much as he might think. Perhaps Brian and I and others here have even combined into offering a kind of carrot and stick approach towards addressing Lakewood's leadership situation?
Seriously, I certainly would never condone toleration of any form of abuse or perpetual wrongdoing from anyone. Nor would I want to appease a wrongdoer for the sake of some pie-in-the-sky hope for a peace that under those circumstances, could never happen.
I've served my time on the virtual barricades of righteousness, and from time to time, I return to those barricades when I need to do so. I've never claimed to be a 100% pacifist.
At the same time, I think it important that people try to make the best of every day and every situation that they find themselves to be in, particularly in dealing with others; and that can be the hard part indeed.
Back to the banjo...
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:00 pm
by Lori Allen _
Brian,
I'm with you.
Show us the records.
Show us the money.
Show us the contracts.
Show us the e-mails.
Show us the text messages.
There can be no peace without transparency.
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:08 pm
by m buckley
Admittedly I'm not an expert but I have dabbled from time to time in conflict resolution,( and no, I don't want to talk about it).
With that as background and taking into full consideration the Orwellian bent of the Summers administration, I want to strongly recommend the immediate formation of a Lie/Hide/Withhold and Reconciliation Commission . Sort of a variation on the more conventional Truth and Reconciliation Commission, minus of course the Truth part. That just slows things down.
I'll leave the particulars for Summers, Butler and City Council to sort out. I trust them implicitly and there is the added bonus that under their direction the outcome will be determined long before the first meeting is convened. Believe me, it will save a lot of time.
Let's get moving Lakewood!
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:45 pm
by Dan Alaimo
Jim O'Bryan wrote:
Dan Alaimo wrote:
'scuse me Jim if I'm promoting any drift in this thread, but several things:
--I don't play the banjo, and I don't have the command of emojis that Gary has, but I share his desire for greater civility in Lakewood, and I think this thread has been a good thing. I write this in the spirit of community dialog.
--On O'Malley and the hospital vote: it pains me no end to revisit this issue but the vote was close but decisive, and I believe I was one of the first on the Deck to concede the results. That said, the vote was close, yet Council acted unanimously. I don't think such unanimity was representative of "the way of the vote." That relates directly to our future leadership. And I wish Dan O'Malley would speak for himself. The problem I had at the time was he didn't explain himself.
--and here's where I think Jim sees the thread drifting: I'm not clear what proposals you are referring to. If they are driftwood, please do start a new thread and let's discuss them there.
Dan
It wasn't you promoting it, I was answering Mike's question if talking about the new proposals would be thread drift, and warrants a new thread.
If I remember Councilman O'Malley was not allowed to vote on the Hospital deal, as it was hurried through before he was sworn in.
.
Jim,
I'm lacking complete recall of the events at the time. I recall that there was some kind of letter from council supporting the deal, and Dan O'Malley signed it. Also, wasn't there another council vote after the referendum? Perhaps someone else can fill in the details.
Is Bridget's post in reference to the proposals in question, or are they something else?
Re: Leaders...Think About the Next Generation
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:57 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Dan Alaimo wrote:
Jim,
I'm lacking complete recall of the events at the time. I recall that there was some kind of letter from council supporting the deal, and Dan O'Malley signed it. Also, wasn't there another council vote after the referendum? Perhaps someone else can fill in the details.
Is Bridget's post in reference to the proposals in question, or are they something else?
Dan
If I remember correctly Councilman O'Malley's name, as so often happened is this debacle was added before he was asked and sent out.
