Lakewood Arts Festival -- No Dogs Allowed

[dl meckes]

Well, can't say that I am a fan of Cesar but that's for another thread.

Jeff,

Give me a bit and I'll put together some great resources for you and post them here. I am more than happy to make some suggestionos on obtaining this info.

Ed

I'm not a big fan of Cesar's either, but I have never seen a human act out dog signals as well as he does!

Reading dogs is kind of an art. We've had two very smiley dogs. One is a smiley dog, while the other was a stress smiler.

Tail wagging can also mean a variety of things from happy to warning.

To Jeff and Todd, I never wish to denigrate or demean your experiences or feelings. People don't always have good experiences (or any experience) with dogs.

I'd never take our dogs to the Lakewood Arts fest because it's too crowded and I think it's asking for trouble. I have taken dogs to the Tremont Arts fest because we could walk around Lincoln Park and have some wagging room. I don't want anyone stepping on or falling over one of our dogs.

We don't generally take our dogs to crowded events.

[Ahmie Yeung]

Would anyone - mainly dog owners of course - be able to provide me with some examples of specific behaviors to look for or what exactly to read or types or warning signs or whatever. I'm sincerely curious about this since it was not suggested before that I or the dog owner should have noticed some simple signal from the animal that we did not. I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent and attentive and the dog did not behave in any way differently the day it attacked me than in all the other days. I personally am still surprised by people's behavior, even people I know very well. I admit to being suspicious that even the best pet owner can't ever be surprised by their animal like this.

I'm not a dog expert nor owner, but the one big hint that I have from experience (and I am very adept at reading body language - human and animal - due to hearing issues) - watch the tail, if the animal has one. Held high usually means good mood, safe to be around. Tail pointing straight back level with the animal's body is a sign of potential danger/aggression - something has the dog wanting to be more aerodynamic at least. Tail lower than horizontal-level but not tucked under body, animal is feeling low-key/low energy/mellow, OK to approach but not necessarily in the mood for interaction from strangers. Any part of the tail between the legs or pointing in that direction (in the case of animals with just a nub), the animal is distressed, likely to go into fight-or-flight, do not approach unless you know the animal well and/or are clothed appropriately.

These generalizations apply to cats and dogs. Tail wagging has the opposite meaning between the two species (tail wagging dog is in a good mood, tail wagging cat is in a bad/aggravated mood - my poor cat's been burning so many calories with her wagging/twitching tail since the baby got mobile!)

The dog to avoid at all costs - the one with horizontal tail standing/walking with it's flank touching it's owner - that dog is in protection mode, irregardless of what it's head-end appears to be doing.

Given all that, there are also some dogs that will be set off by certain scents which the owner may not have even noticed (since the dog's nose is much more sensitive). Especially a problem with a dog that has been abused in the past, if you're wearing the same deodorant as the abuser the dog could get very irritated very fast and behave uncharacteristically. So can people with PTSD, hell, I get more aggitated when I'm around smokers because my abusive stepmother was a heavy smoker. A dog's learning/memory is likely even more tied to smell than human memories are (and smell is usually the fastest/surest way to trigger an associated memory in a way much more intense than any other sense) given that their sense of smell is more keen than ours.


Hope that helps some. I've read books on dog training and helped some friends with their own animals but it's been years and I don't have any current sources to cite. I just didn't want you to go unanswered since I'd seen you asked more than once for specifics.


Ahmie

[Charyn Compeau]

I will interested to see Ed's response and how it compares to Ahmie's post as it seems that those principle do hold for many dogs; however, based upon my knowledge of my breed - there may be breed differences.

For example - I own Belgians and their natural/relaxed tail state is straight out from the body when in gait. When in a standing position their tails are fully relaxed and straight down. When my dominant/fearful boy is alerting is stands in a perfect square (stacked) and his tail flicks at the end only - if he gets to escalate (i.e. run up to the window and bark at an offender) it is full up and wagging. Ears flat against the head in this breed is submissive - up is normal, straight up and forward is high alert.

So my dog with ears up and tail wagging is NOT a good thing - ears flat and tail straight is for more desirable unless accompanied by some serious growling - in which case my dog is hurt and extremely unpredictable due to the pain factor.


I train for a very short leash heel so the dogs are used to walking in close contact. When he is on alert is vision focuses on that one things instead of constantly scanning the area. He will stare at the object of concern and very quickly flick a glance at me for clues as to how he should be reacting.

For me and my breed, fixation on an object or person is something to be immediately addressed and is often the first clue. Again, I only know my breed this well and am by no means an expert, but there are a lot of clues that my dogs give me long before they get to barking or growling. many of these things I learned from books and training classes (I believe ALL new dog owners should do at LEAST 6 months of dog training - preferably a year) but much of it also came from breed clubs, email lists and breeder forums where new owners could ask questions about their dogs and receive advise and support from people who have worked with these dogs for decades.

The best advise I can give a non-owner is to never, ever assume that a given dog has a good/knowledgeable owner. Or that a dog has been trained. And for heaven's sake - when they tell you "No-you may not pet my dog" please do not assume that there will be an exception made for you and he will suddenly love being petted by strangers becuase you are a "dog person" or becuase "all animals like you."

And for dog -owners... get trained, see Ed (he knows his stuff - we never had a change to train with him but he has an EXCELLENT reputation in the dog world), and BE HONEST. With yourself and with others about your dog.

Sorry - to ramble on - i think i spent too much time in the sun today

[Charyn Compeau]

One other thing -

When I take either of my dogs (Mr Fear or Ms I Love Everyone) - my attention is directed to them entirely. I rarely take them out together b/c then they each only get half of my attention.

One of the most common mistakes I see is people taking their dogs for walks while they chat on the phone, talk with friends, catch up with neighbors, etc.

If you are not giving your dog your attention, you wont see they many signs that they are giving you as to how they feel and what their mental state is. You my not notice their they are tired, agitated, bored, thirsty, etc. All stressors on their environment and all communicated in various ways. So what may seem unprovoked, really was not. It just went un-noticed.

FWIW

[Richard Cole]

So what may seem unprovoked, really was not. It just went un-noticed.

FWIW

This discussion on signals and behavior is very interesting, and I assume based on healthy dogs. One of our dogs suffered from some sort of canine dementia - what we knew about him, the signals, the reaction to stimuli changed over time, and often would alter during the day. Cognitive dysfunction can alter a dog's interactions and reactions.

Dog owners really do need to know their dog, and to recognize cognitive changes as well. The un-noticed reaction might be health related.

[dl meckes]

Excellent point, thanks for making it.

[Beajay Michaud]

I still don't understand why leashed dogs are forbidden in parks.

The same reason they don't have basketball hoops at the parks....Brings in the wrong element to Lakewood.

[Brad Hutchison]

The same reason they don't have basketball hoops at the parks....Brings in the wrong element to Lakewood.

Yes. Families with dogs and young people involved in sports are the last people public parks are designed for.

[Hope Robbins]

Right....so is um banning certain types of dogs?


Funny....those things have been in effect for a while, well except the above mentioned and isn't the population of the "undesirables" on the rise?
Hmm I think it's perhaps because the local parks that allow dogs and basketball...are right across the street as close as West Park,,,,which is where my kids go...and the dog goes.....which is where others go,,,they don't MOVE....there.

Shame this type of thing should deter Lakewood from making dumb laws to deter the "undesireables, it should make them enforce what they have on the books, and umm EDUCATE people on how to be responsible dog owners, and community friendly dog owners, and basketball players? Go figure, why didn't I think of that? Oh I did....

[Jim O'Bryan]

Hope / All

After speaking with one of the women from the Arts Festival she pointed out that they have never allowed dogs, nor bikes or skateboards.


FWIW



.

[Hope Robbins]

Hope / All

After speaking with one of the women from the Arts Festival she pointed out that they have never allowed dogs, nor bikes or skateboards.


FWIW

Thanks for checking Jim,
But I wasn't talking about the Art Festival.
I am in FULL agreement with that one. Which I said in my earlier post.
I would never take my dog to something like that to much risk for all kinds of issues that could happen.

I was talking about the local parks.

[Lynn Farris]

The bright side of this summer of "animal intolerence" is, everything in Lakewood must be getting alot better. All of the problems we debated on the Deck last year have been replaced by "The Year of the Dog!"

Todd, to some degree you are right, but I still wonder if there are more important issues on which our council could be working.

I do not have a dog currently. However, I had a great dog, a Rhodesian Ridgeback that was well mannered, but on occaision could accidently clear a whole area with a wag of his tail. I wouldnt want him around nice pieces of pottery or glass or actually any type of art.

That being said, one of the greatest features about Lakewood is it is a family friendly city. One thing that is family friendly is dogs. We don't seem to be as friendly to dogs as other cities are. Not allowed in park, checking to see if that mixed breed dog may have some aspect of pit bull in them. It seems we could keep our citizens safe from vicious dogs and still allow families more opportunities with their dogs in our city. JMHO

[Beajay Michaud]

If you don't know what I mean by "reading your dog" then you can't say there was no warning. Dogs warn in many ways and they ALWAYS give something unless it's been supressed through fear tactics. The problem is most people only think of a warning as a growl or teeth. It's much more complex than that. If a dog has reached the state of a growl, you've already missed about 6 to 12 other stress signals. They need to growl either. They can lash out with other signals given. These are the bites that get reported as "unprovoked".

You don't have to agree with me but it's what I do for a living. I'm not trying to argue with you or be combative either. just sharing what I know. That's all.

Ed

I have to agree with Ed there is always some sign, I have two very large dogs that could do serious damage, if not trained. My females' face changes - her soft features disaper and her head becomes very square looking by the changing angle of her ears. My males ears go upright along with his tail, then the hair on his back stands up. There are lots of signs, that are pets give us. Barking is not one of them, my dogs have been trained not to bark at night. Trust me you could break into our house at night and never here a bark.

[Ed Dickson]

Jeff and all others interested,

Finally, here is a beginning list of resources for you to learn a little about reading dogs.
As for books:

"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell.
It doesn't get any better than this as far as I'm concerned. Patricia McConnell is an animal behaviorist. In this book she breaks down the body language communication techniques of primates (humans) and the same in dogs. She makes it very clear where the clashes come into play. Very well written and easy to read. When done, you may be wondering why we humans don't get bit more often. For those that like to hug dogs, go in with an open mind.

"For The Love of a Dog" also by Patricia McConnell
This is the follow up to the previous book. This was written to talk about the emotional aspect of dogs but she has a great section in it breaking down body language signals as well. The emotional stuff is great also since the outside is only doing what the inside tells it to do!

"Canine Body Language, a Photographic Guide" by Brenda Aloff
This is one of the most comprehensive picture books of dogs that I have ever seen. It's 375 pages of pictures of specific signals with detailed explanations. Great stuff.


Videos:
"The Language of Dogs" by Sarah Kalnajs (pronounced Call-Nice)
This is great as far as putting video to the explanations. You can see exactly what is being discussed as it's happening. Maybe more in depth on some things than necessary for this purpose but good info.

"Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas
Not the greatest as far as production value but good video on what dogs do to naturally try to calm themselves when stressed. Things like sniffing the ground, peeing and yawning are natural calming indicators for a dog.

"Dog Talk-Understanding Canine Body Language and Communication" by Donna Duford
I admit I've never seen this but I know other works by the author and would trust what she has to say is good information.


This is a good start for anyone. To answer the question about how this can be complex and simple at the same time. The real problem is just about any signal a dog gives has to be taken in context. The tail was the example I was going to use. Most people assume a wagging tail is a happy dog but nothing could be further from the truth. It's in context with the rest of the body. If the tail is wagging real loose, so much so that the rear end is going with it....that's a happy dog. A high raised tail (called flagging) with a real rapid movement is a dog I will avoid until I've been able to soak in what the rest of the dog is saying. Keep in mind dogs will always orient towards the target of aggression. Meaning they will position the body in such a way that they line up with what they aren't happy about. If they are really unhappy, the tail will be raised high and actually be pointing at the target. In your statement Jeff, the red flag word to me was freeze. A stiff or frozen dog is a bad thing.
I will qualify that by saying it isn't your responsibility to make sure you don't get bit. Of course you will want to not get bit and that's why learning this is a good thing. Ultimately, the owner of the dog has to be the one making sure something doesn't happen. Accidents will happen and bites will occur. That's just nature but a little bit of knowledge will go a long way for anyone.
I don't recall if I covered everything that was asked but I am more than happy to keep answering questions if any come up.
I have been planning a body language seminar for some time and will be putting one on the schedule for NCD most likely in September. I'll be talking all about this stuff. I can post details for anyone interested when I have them. (Don't want to make this a big commercial, though.)

Charyn, Thanks for the kind words. It's always humbling to me to hear people say stuff like that. I think of myself as a guy just doing something that he loves!

Hope this helps!
Ed

[Jeff Dreger]

Ed,
Thanks for the info. I admit to being a cat person and not a dog person, but those sound interesting as well as useful. I think I'll pass this on to the dog owners I know as some of them probably aren't as educated as they think they are.

Charyn Compeau said:

When I take either of my dogs (Mr Fear or Ms I Love Everyone) - my attention is directed to them entirely. I rarely take them out together b/c then they each only get half of my attention.

One of the most common mistakes I see is people taking their dogs for walks while they chat on the phone, talk with friends, catch up with neighbors, etc.

If you are not giving your dog your attention, you wont see they many signs that they are giving you as to how they feel and what their mental state is.

you sound like a very responsible dog owner. Unfortunately, I often see people just taking their dogs with them as an after thought and their attention is clearly elsewhere and they obviously feel that their dog is perfectly harmless so it's OK to not be keeping an eye on them as they hold conversations, order food/drink, shop, etc.