Calling all non-smokers and smokers

[chris richards]

this is where a professionally trained economist would come in handy to assist research for this topic.

I have yet to read on this thread where a smoker has stated that they do not go to these establishments any more because they cannot smoke in them. and honestly, if a person can't go an hour or two without smoking, they really have a problem. I could care less about the ban. if there is an establishment I enjoy and want to go to, I'll go whether it's smoke filled or not.

yes, we need to support our local businesses, but times are tough economically. it's not just bars and restaurants suffering. but all this has been stated earlier in the thread much better.

[Jim O'Bryan]

I have yet to read on this thread where a smoker has stated that they do not go to these establishments any more because they cannot smoke in them. and honestly, if a person can't go an hour or two without smoking, they really have a problem. I could care less about the ban. if there is an establishment I enjoy and want to go to, I'll go whether it's smoke filled or not.

excellent point



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[Justine Cooper]

Jim,

I just got back from extended vacations in Fla., Virginia and North Carolina and I can tell you that Virginia beach, usually booming in June/July was incredibly sparse with people! One morning we had breakfast on one of the many restaurants right on the beach and were one of two tables! The waitress said they were busier in the winter! Every hotel on the beach had vacancy the week of July fourth! Down in the upper keys it was a bit of a ghost town! Every business held a sale to get any business and we were able to get a hotel right on the beach at last minute's notice and a great rate! Even the Outer Banks were just not crowded. I believe all of these places allow smoking and I totally disagree that the smoking ban has anything to do with less business here.

I LOVE the fact that I can go places here now and not feel like I am going to have an asthma attack (I don't have asthma) or reak of second hand smoke. I also love that I can take my children places without worring about that. It is about rights since smoking affects anyone in the breathing area and second hand smoke actually does cause cancer. I can't hang anymore in places outside of this area that allow it so am incredibly appreciative that this county is progressive enough to have outlawed it.

That being said, the economy is hurting everywhere and restaurants, shops, and bars everywhere are barely making it. Discount the predatory lenders, war, politics, etc. all you wish, but the economy is what it is for those very reasons. Eating out is a luxury many families can't afford anymore. Lakewood has some of the best eateries of any town I know of and I am all for supporting small businesses, but this is not a smoking issue in my opinion after shockingly seeing other areas. People are hurting everywhere, not just the businesses but the servers and food suppliers and all involved. The dominos will continue to fall for all not connected to oil.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Justine

I imagine that many if not all vacation areas are hurting with high gas prices. I would agree that the entire country is in a state of shock over the cost of everything.

However there is a major difference between Lakewood and Virgina Beach and the Keys. I would imagine one is the fall off in our vacation business was not as effected. If anything, there should be more people in Lakewood this summer as they did not go on vacation.

I am also willing to bet that there is a big difference between the in-season price of the burger at Virgina Beach, and the Cajun Blue Cheese Burger at The Coffee Pot. The steak dinner in the Keys and the $7.95 steak at Lakewood Village Tavern, with two sides.

The Crab Louie in Miami, and the $8.95 Grouper sandwich at the WestEnd.

If we really like going to these places then we better start or continue, because they might not be here next year, and that would be criminal.

Sometimes, more often than not in this day and age, we have to take one for the team. Time to circle the wagons and protect what we have.


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[Bret Callentine]

Personally, I know that I no longer go to my favorite local bar... not because of the smoking ban, but because they tore it down to build another drug store.

Curious. Has anyone done any follow up research on the results of the smoking ban? Are we all suddenly healthier? Has the healthcare savings met the loss in business? Do we just automatically assume that the ban had the desired effect and leave it in place for the rest of eternity? Or can it be re-visited? I wonder what the results would be if it had to pass another vote to remain.

[James Mullen]

Reading this thread as a bar owner has been very intersting. First, I want to say thank you to Jim for making people aware of the plight of many of the bars in our local community. I myself as a bar owner try not only to patronize my own place, but do make the rounds to many of the other local establishments.

I took over a bar nearly 5 years ago now that at the time I bought it did nothing to "seperate" itself from many of the other "holes in the wall" that exist in Lakewood. I have lived her in Lakewood for 25 years now and wanted to invest in my community. My family and I have invested nearly 6 figures in attempting to transform or "hole in the wall" into a comfortable place for people to AFFORDABLLY enjoy a drink. We like MOST of our Lakewood establishments survive on local customers, unlike the the handful of Lakewood places that get customers from all over. If you all want to tell yourself that the smoking ban has had little to no effect on our local hospitatlity industry you are very mistaken. This is not an opinion but a fact. I beg you to go to many of the the lakewood bar/restraurants and you will find they will tell you that it has had an immediate impact. The economy of the last year has only made it worse.

We had many loyal customers that are now going elsewhere because there are a handful of bars that still allow you to smoke througout the West side. This is a reality.

My final point is to the person who said maybe we should just let these business close and weed out the gluttony of bars that exist in Lakewood. Have you thought that through. Many of the bars rent their space....hurts the landlord of that building who receives two times the amount of rent per month that they could get if it was not a bar. It hurts the single mom.....who tends bar three days a week to make money for her family. It hurts the lakewood economy.....the bar/restruarant business is the largest tax base in the city. Please tell me that you dont care if these "hole in the walls" close down. Do you not care if your neighbor walks away from their home????? Not all that different to the long term effects on our community.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim

Do not be bashful. Jim owns Mullens on Madison Ave. A fine establishment that is my favorite getaway when I say "honey I will walk to the corner for milk."

Besides all of the great points you raise, I wold say that the smoking law and corner bars make the city safer. More eyes on the streets.


FWIW


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[Bryan Schwegler]

Justine

I imagine that many if not all vacation areas are hurting with high gas prices. I would agree that the entire country is in a state of shock over the cost of everything.

However there is a major difference between Lakewood and Virgina Beach and the Keys. I would imagine one is the fall off in our vacation business was not as effected. If anything, there should be more people in Lakewood this summer as they did not go on vacation.

I am also willing to bet that there is a big difference between the in-season price of the burger at Virgina Beach, and the Cajun Blue Cheese Burger at The Coffee Pot. The steak dinner in the Keys and the $7.95 steak at Lakewood Village Tavern, with two sides.

The Crab Louie in Miami, and the $8.95 Grouper sandwich at the WestEnd.

If we really like going to these places then we better start or continue, because they might not be here next year, and that would be criminal.

Sometimes, more often than not in this day and age, we have to take one for the team. Time to circle the wagons and protect what we have.


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Jim, I still go back to the fact these places do a horrible job of marketing themselves.

I would never think to go to a "bar" for good food. They need to get the word out, market to the locals, in essence, sell themselves.

No business can expect to just turn on the "open" sign and have the masses come. In the case of these businesses, the competitive environment has drastically changed due the smoking ban and even moreso, the down environment. They may need to change the way the do business or try even harder to survive.

In the end, some may close, some will remain open. Industries, consumer behavior, and competitive landscape changes. Businesses need to adapt to survive. Imagine where AT&T would be if they still focused on telegraphs or West Union and Wells Fargo on stagecoach delivery?

While I understand there are people behind these places, most of whom are very good people trying to do good in their community, that doesn't change the fact that business is constantly changing and is often a brutal environment.

Why not focus on what those places that are thriving are doing right? What are they doing differently?

[James Mullen]

Bryan,

I think you are missing Jim's point. I think he was simply saying if you are talking with your wife, or significant other about going out, why not consider your corner bar for a change instead of heading to tremont, or Rocky River, or wherever. Many of us are already doing this, but those of you who arent think about keeping your dollars local.

On the other points you have made, you seem to be really harping on the fact that "these places" need to do a better job of marketing themselves. How do you know that "these places" do not market themselves. Many of these places are running ad's in Scene, the Observer and many other places to garner business. Many are also attempting to think outside of the box on promotions and entertainment.

I will wrap up with some what of a rant from all of this dialogue. The smoking ban has created issues for the industry. Whether you are for it or against there is a fundamental problem with the nature in which it was passed and put into law. I am all for passing laws for the the health and safety of the general community, but when you pass a law and put it into play with out any idea on how to enforce it, there is a problem. I have been in compliance at Mullen's with the law since it was passed and have continued to see many places even in Lakewood continue to smoke....why? becuase the state has no idea on how to enforce and crack down on this law. Who loses....as usually the law obiding people. On top of the issues we have face due in part to the smoking ban, the market place has changed as it has for every business. The cost of beer and liqour is rising, and companies are now adding those famous fuel charges in order for me to sell their product. The problem is if I raise prices to get in line with the cost, I inturn will lose customers. Marketing ourselves is one thing, surviving is another.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Bryan, I think you are missing Jim's point. I think he was simply saying if you are talking with your wife, or significant other about going out, why not consider your corner bar for a change instead of heading to tremont, or Rocky River, or wherever. Many of us are already doing this, but those of you who arent think about keeping your dollars local.

Sure, local is good, I agree. But if somewhere not local fits my needs or desire better, I'll go there.

On the other points you have made, you seem to be really harping on the fact that "these places" need to do a better job of marketing themselves. How do you know that "these places" do not market themselves. Many of these places are running ad's in Scene, the Observer and many other places to garner business. Many are also attempting to think outside of the box on promotions and entertainment.

In my job, I focus on marketing and online communication. I'm in school working towards a masters in PR and Marketing Communication. I'll still stand by the fact, that yes, "these place" need to do a better job at marketing if they are not seeing the intended results from their efforts (notice I never said they "don't" do it, I've always said they need to do a better job).

Marketing is an art form and is avery complex science. A blast of an ad in some local papers, etc is not always effective and often not thought through enough to truly make that much of a difference.

Out of the box thinking is required to be truly effective, especially so in a difficult business environment with lots and lots of competitors. Market segmentation is critical in determining how to reach various target groups, especially if you're trying to differentiate yourself from all of the others that on the surface appear to be just another bar also.

Maybe hiring an external marketing consultant might be a good step? Everyone has a specialty. For some it's running a bar, but that doesn't make you an effective marketer. Just like a marketer may not be able to run a great bar.

[Jim DeVito]

I would never think to go to a "bar" for good food.

I disagree. I would encourage everybody to try the Blackened Chicken Sandwich from The Drink!! It is top notch.

[Brad Hutchison]

Bryan,

As others have told you, a lot of good bars in Lakewood have good food. The idea of a place being a "bar" is a matter of perception. Most probably think of Melt as a restaurant because that's what it is known for, but it's as much bar as many other places, with a great beer list.

James Mullen,

I've been to and enjoyed your bar many times, mostly due to your relationship with Rich at the Pop Shop. You're in a position to know better than I am, but I find it hard to believe that people go nowhere (as Colleen also suggested) because of the ban, but I know you don't have a patio. Just out of curiosity, would the "other" smoking ban have been been better in your opinion - the one that allowed establishments to choose for themselves?

Lastly, I'm a guy who enjoys a good pub, and going to lots of different ones all over. I haven't seen any of these places that still allow smoking.

[Bryan Schwegler]

I would never think to go to a "bar" for good food.

I disagree. I would encourage everybody to try the Blackened Chicken Sandwich from The Drink!! It is top notch.

I'm not saying they don't have great food, just that I would never have thought to go.

My point is, I'm clearly a market demographic they're missig because I'm sure I'm not alone. But now that I do know, I can try it out.

[Bryan Schwegler]

Bryan,

As others have told you, a lot of good bars in Lakewood have good food. The idea of a place being a "bar" is a matter of perception. Most probably think of Melt as a restaurant because that's what it is known for, but it's as much bar as many other places, with a great beer list.

Brad, I'm not denying that they do. My point is more that they obviously are missing a group of people in marketing that fact.

They need to market the fact if they want people to know. I can't change my perception if I'm not told. That's what I'm trying to say.

This all just demonstrates the need for a better marketing plan. If I don't know, how many others also don't? I love good food so the more places I know about the better.

[Jim O'Bryan]

Jim, I still go back to the fact these places do a horrible job of marketing themselves.
Why not focus on what those places that are thriving are doing right? What are they doing differently?

Bryan

As you point out you are a marketing/PR student. If all you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail.

I would agree that some have done a poor job, while others a doing a better job.

I still do not remember many people saying, "If you ban smoking and increase marketing you might stay in business."

I thought the comments were closer to... "I would go out more often if place didn't allow smoking."

I would like to also point out, have a graphics company and many projects that need advertising. I sell advertising, and I manufacture ads. Not sure it is the total cure, and would feel uncomfortable selling it as such.

But fear we have beat this to death.

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