Mardi Gras Madness At City Hall

[John Guscott]

I think the LO forum would be a less interesting place without Mr. Call's posts.

Sometimes I agree with him, but often I don't, but you've got to hand it to him for being actively involved in digging out information that otherwise might not be brought to the public's attention, and for writing provocative posts in order to stimulate necessary discussion about impending issues facing Lakewood.

If he has his facts wrong, which has happened, the truth usually comes out quickly. But I'm glad someone is willing to raise challenging issues, and who doesn't hide behind a false identity when doing so.

(And I don't think he's "black & white", I've seen him change his mind on occasion!).

[Dee Martinez]

All points of view should be welcome. Mr Call may not be black and white but his starting point of view is universally that all public employees, bar none, are basically underworked and overpaid parasites. I do not recall the faintest hint of admission from Mr Call that anyone in any public position may actually EARN their salary.
While that one-note samba gets a little tiresome and tedious on occasion, the extremity of it allows the rest of us to find our own "middle ground" and the fact that he raises the issue allows for some examination of the real facts involved.

[charlie tardivo]

I dont understand why it seems to be a problem with some people that a city official (Tom George) would attend a professional meeting. I have attended many many professional meetings over the years in my profession. These meetings hae been invaluable to me in the growing and learning process in my career. The value is in the content of the meetings and the networking. I have been involved in planning professional meetings as well. When planning a meeting the 3 most important items to consider are location, location, location. I have also attended professional meetings in New Orleans over the years, four of them to be exact.

I would expect our Mayor to attend a professional meeting such as the "National League of Cities Conferrence". I would also expect our Mayor to attend a meeting in New Orleans. What better example of disaster recovery can you have than the city of New Orleans. There would be lessons learned. So if the negative people of Lakewood can get off their high horse and get down to sea level they would realize our Mayor attending this meeting actually would have been a good thing.

If Tom George, as someone had commented, had not attended the meeting, then perhaps our new Mayor elect should have. God knows he needs it.

[Stephen Eisel]

I dont understand why it seems to be a problem with some people that a city official (Tom George) would attend a professional meeting.

Because he will be out of office in a couple of months???

[Bill Call]

All points of view should be welcome. Mr Call may not be black and white but his starting point of view is universally that all public employees, bar none, are basically underworked and overpaid parasites.

I have never any of that.

What I have said ( in different ways) is even though the City has 30% fewer citizens:

1. Lakewood has more employees than it did 20 years ago
2. Lakewood has more employees than many peer cities
3. Some City departments have high absentee rates
4. That lead to double digit increases in overtime costs
5. Even as city services decline
6. And that there is a better answer than:
7. Raise taxes to fund business as usual.

What really upsets people is when I add:

City employees should pay 50% of the health insurance premium and that the policy should have a reasonable level of co-pay and deductable

AND

Three years without a raise is a sacrifice made by millions of people and is a sacrifice that should be made by City employees

AND

There is no reason for government employees to be immune from economic reality.

[Dee Martinez]

[quote="Bill Call

There is no reason for government employees to be immune from economic reality.[/quote]

No disagreement but that works both ways. The value of an advanced college degree is now higher than ever. If a masters is now worth $60,000 to start in the private sector, should it be worth only $32,000 for a teacher?
Isnt that "economic reality" too, or does that phrase only cover conditions that ARENT favorable to labor?
Remember too that for most public employees wages and benefits are tied to longevity. This has a certain benefit to taxpayers in that it stops bidding wars for personnel. If Westlake was to start paying cops or techers $80,000 how long would we get away with paying $30,000?

[Bill Call]

No disagreement but that works both ways. The value of an advanced college degree is now higher than ever. If a masters is now worth $60,000 to start in the private sector, should it be worth only $32,000 for a teacher??

Because a teacher with a masters degree is not a better teacher because of the masters degree. One of the great falacies of modern education is that attending that six week condensed masters program over a couple of summers makes a better teacher.

This has a certain benefit to taxpayers in that it stops bidding wars for personnel. If Westlake was to start paying cops or techers $80,000 how long would we get away with paying $30,000?

There a certainly some City jobs that might be difficult to fill in the event everyone quit in a huff.

One the other hand there are thousands of well educated, hard working and experienced people collecting unemployment checks or working in jobs beneath their desires and abilities.

I am only saying that with hundreds of City employees with pay and benefit packages over $70,000 per year its not too much to ask that:

They go three years without a raise
They pay 50% of any health insurance premium
That the health policy have a reasonable co pay and deductible
That since sick time has become extra vacation time that sick time be replaced with short and long term disability policies

And that if that if the above are deemed to onerous then City employees can do what 100 million other people have done during the last 20 years - seek opportunity elsewhere.

[Jeff Endress]

They go three years without a raise
They pay 50% of any health insurance premium
That the health policy have a reasonable co pay and deductible
That since sick time has become extra vacation time that sick time be replaced with short and long term disability policies

And that if that if the above are deemed to onerous then City employees can do what 100 million other people have done during the last 20 years - seek opportunity elsewhere

As most assuredly they will.

Bill, while it would be nice to rein in the costs to taxpayers of public service employment, it is, unfortunately, not something which can (or will) be done unless a majority of those employers take the same actions. Barring that, the governmental unit taking the lead will find itself unable to fill positions, or be forced to fill them with other's cast offs, as the free agents in this emploment market will always seek the higher paying job, versus the same job at much lower wages and benefits.

What are the realistic chances that you could hire a city worker for Lakewood under the conditions you outline when none of the surrounding hiring governmental bodies are doing the same? I don't necessarily disagree that those costs should be controlled, I just don't think it is possible for one city, without similar actions by surrounding communities, to accomplish it.

Jeff

[Dee Martinez]

Because a teacher with a masters degree is not a better teacher because of the masters degree. One of the great falacies of modern education is that attending that six week condensed masters program over a couple of summers makes a better teacher.

Hummm... the "economic realities" you yearn for include the reality that an advanced degree gets you more money on the job than an undergraduate degree or no degree at all. (For the record I am not degreed) I could substitue the phrase "modern banking" or "modern supermarket management" for "modern education" and get the same result. Economic reality #1 is more education=more pay.

This is no time to go all wobbly on us and start talking about "intangibles."
Your either for realism or you arent.

As for your other proposals which would basically make Lakewood as attractive as Kabul in hiring qualified people, Ill let others deal with your suggestions.

I will leave you with two questions.

One, what could be more economic reality than having your customers vote on your pay raise? Wish I could do that with Verizon or Fifth Third or United Health Care.

Two, please tell me which current public employees (no names just positions) you believe are actually WORTH the salary and benefits we pay them.

Enjoy your holiday

[dl meckes]

Two, please tell me which current public employees (no names just positions) you believe are actually WORTH the salary and benefits we pay them.

Are you asking Bill or is that an open question?

[Bill Call]

One, what could be more economic reality than having your customers vote on your pay raise? Wish I could do that with Verizon or Fifth Third or United Health Care.

The consumer votes on every pay raise for every employee for every industry when they choose to do business with a company. They vote with their purchase dollars. In the case of Cities the people vote with their feet.

Two, please tell me which current public employees (no names just positions) you believe are actually WORTH the salary and benefits we pay them.

I am sure that all City employees are loyal, dedicated and hard working. In the private sector loyal, dedicated, hard working employees have taken pay cuts, become more productive, accepted changes in benefit packages and helped to reinvent themselves and their industries.

I have no doubt that City employees will do the same for the City they work in, live in and love.

[Donald Farris]

Hi,
I saw this question posed:

"What are the realistic chances that you could hire a city worker for Lakewood under the conditions you outline when none of the surrounding hiring governmental bodies are doing the same?"

Then in yesterday's paper I saw this story:
Wal-Mart draws huge crowd - of applicants - Some say 6,000 job hunters a reflection on economy

I believe it could be a wonderful opportunity if Lakewood residents had a chance at getting a quality job working for the City. Granted not all those that apply would be qualified but I'll bet many would actually be better qualified and still quite happy to take the compensation suggested by Mr. Call.

Thanks to our economy we have a huge pool of available workers.

[sharon kinsella]

I sincerely wonder if those of you who propose slashing salaries would take the same cuts. Or is it do unto others?

[Stephen Eisel]

I sincerely wonder if those of you who propose slashing salaries would take the same cuts. Or is it do unto others?

Are you comparing apples to oranges (private sector vs government) ?

[sharon kinsella]

I'm comparing wages. That's all. The comparison that was put forth was the number of people showing up for Walmart jobs. Please direct your question to the author of that statement.

There seems to be a lot of talk on this thread about cutting wages and now there is a discussion about the number of people showing up for the pathetic Walmart jobs.

Hmm - maybe if so many jobs weren't outsourced to foreign countries and the steel industry wasn't dead in Ohio etc. etc. (that discussion is for a different thread).