The Observation Deck

Suzie -

I'm not "guilty" nor I am less than and not you or anyone else will ever get away with that.

You'll never understand - and this is the end of the "pissing" contest, just not worth my time.

But, no one, any where, at anytime will infer or suggest that stay-at-home moms are better than working moms - not on my watch.

You're way or the highway.

Get over it.

sharon kinsella wrote:
But, no one, any where, at anytime will infer or suggest that stay-at-home moms are better than working moms - not on my watch.

Once again...never said that. You can still be involved even if you are a working parent.

But oh yea, that's not what this thread is about.

It's unfortunate that a civil conversation has turned so hateful. First off let me try and re explain the initial conversation Justine and I were having. I, as a non-Hayes parent, was dismayed by the way a Pilot Program was being administered. My question was and still is, if we are to believe the school administrators that the children in the half day program will not be missing any academics then what is being "taught" in the afternoon? It was a simple question. Justine and I and several other parents feel that in the best interest of the children, the half day children should be in a separate classroom. To me this isn't about whether the studies show one type of program is better than another, it's about choice. Unfortunately the parents were not given the opportunity to make an informed decision. I am upset with the Administration, I am upset that parents weren't surveyed about how this program should be administered, I'm upset that this pilot program is not similar to other full-day programs nationwide, and I am upset that the half day program is not the same as the other schools district wide. Now for why I no longer feel that I wish to belong to the Observer Community. I voiced my opinion, I dared to question the decisions made by the Board of Education and I get attacked. Not very open minded. I care about the children in the schools, not just my kids or my friends kids, but all the kids. I don't need kudos for the volunteer work I do, I do it because I love the joy it brings. All children are different, all children need different things and this district used to cater to the children, I see a shift and I am upset, but how dare I voice my opinion.

I will state once again and for the last time, I don't have a problem with full day kindergarten. It wouldn't be my choice, but I am sure it is okay for some children. I just think the classes should be separate because I don't want any child feeling singled out or different. No child deserves that and for me it's about the children.

Thank you all for the civil discussions we have had in the past, but I am done both reading and participating in this forum. Life is too short for me to waste it with pointless banter.

Suzie Dean wrote:

sharon kinsella wrote:
But, no one, any where, at anytime will infer or suggest that stay-at-home moms are better than working moms - not on my watch.

Once again...never said that. You can still be involved even if you are a working parent.

But oh yea, that's not what this thread is about.

I am beginning to see a pattern here... carry on!

Suzie Dean wrote: picking up the slack from,
a) non involved parents
and
b) what is done in day care...minus the "cost" of day care.
y

I think some of the comments made sounded very demeaning and attacking people who did choose the full day, insinuating that they were shirking being a parent.That is where other people read and got defensive and then the whole stay-at-home versus working mom got insinuated in as well.

The bottom line is 1. Issues of concern at the School Board should be addressed to them and not projected at the other parents. And there are issues. Starting off one of the pilot programs with a three month substitute to cover a maternity leave is NOT how any of us envisioned our child going to Kindergarten, getting acclimated, and then after three months getting a new teacher. And yes combining the two together was a shock to all.

2. Parents should not be judged, even by their involvement in the school as how effective/involved they are as a parent. If some choose to spend hours in the school, that is their choice and I admire that. But I personally never intended to spend hours in the school with my children after they started. I don't think it is in their best interest. I will be room mother or helper, I will have lunch with them once a week or every other while I can, I will help when needed, but I believe they need their independence from me and I need it from them. I am a better parent having a balance in my life, and they seem better having some from me. That is my personal choice and I respect all other personal choices. For me, to have an identity separate from my children and to not live through them, I feel I am a better person and a being more fulfilled, a better parent all around. We are talking about six hours of the day and all the other waking hours being with mom and mom/dad centered around them! Balance is good for everyone.

If people got defensive reading some of the posts, then some of the posts or opinions/judgments should be looked at, not just keep on attacking. There is a reason people read this thread and felt defensive and judged and the original thread has been long gone.

I do want to add that I met Mona this year at Hayes and have talked to her several times and I don't think she is being represented accurately on this thread. Her concerns of the combined half-day to full day, the high class numbers, and the miscommunication from the board were the only concerns I heard her communicate. I never heard her put down the full day Kindergarten and parents whom have chosen it, or called the teachers "day care workers" which is what has taken this thread off track and to an ugly place.

PS My kindergarten son asked me NOT to walk him into class today. Mr. Independent does better with me not there, and when I asked the principal if he needed help in the Kindergarten until the class size came down he emphatically said "No thank you"! which I interpreted it as they are competent to do it. And I believe them.

It's too bad that the pilot program seems to be such a debacle.

When I was in five (35 years ago), I didn't go to kindergarten. Not all the schools even offered it. It wasn't a big deal. It was definitely more comparable to preschool & daycare (which I did attend) because they didn't teach the academics that they do now.

I think these days, the children need kindergarten or they won't be prepared for first grade. Half day/full day, it's all relative. Parents know what their kids need better than anyone, but they have to have the full picture to make an informed decision. The pilot program doesn't seem to have done that.

I, too, agree that the mudslinging is coming from feeling attacked at their parenting style. I'm sure most working moms would choose not to work, if they could. But they (we) do the best they (we) can.

Dee,
I do agree with your post except I don't want to call the pilot program a failure before it gets off the ground. Because it is a pilot program there will be pros and cons and trial and error this first year. If they repeat it, hopefully they will know what they can do better. To be honest there are a handful of things that don't sit right with all the parents, half day or full day, like I mentioned above. There is a substitute for the first three months! The first substitute has been replaced after three days because of an incident that occurred and most parents are heartbroken about her being gone. And when the third class is opened, the classes will be split into the three classes. That is A LOT of transition for five year olds entering school.

That being said, I don't feel that my son (I can only speak for myself) will have permanent damage or any real damage as a result. I think he will adapt like we all have to in life when unplanned things get in the way of our plans. I have seen kids come out of war zones and pushed out of their country at this age and still become successful so I am choosing not to lose sleep over this and I always believe there is a reason for everything so I will fall back on that thought now.

As for the attack on parents who do things differently, not worse, but differently, I just feel sad that that is out there when support for each other works so much better.

Justine,

the only thing that bothers me in your post, is that I never said anything wrong or indifferent about mona. I said...I'm assuming she does these things at home as well. And yes I know her as well. I have talked to her also. The other thing that was mentioned in her name was the letter that Danielle had posted for her.

But, what is right for one is not for another. I don't feel children need to be in full day kindergarten. But some may say they do. Everything on here is a matter of opinion. I do feel that they structured the whole "pilot" program wrong. I don't think its right for the half day and full day to be mixed together. If what we are told is true...the curriculum is no different. So you have two separate classes, and maybe with the full day kids they might spend a little more time on the same lesson. Thus stretching the same curriculum that half day is getting, out amongst the whole day.

Everything that I have stated amongst ALL of my posts is MY opinion. Doesn't mean your opinion is wrong... just different like you said. But I am not going to be attacked for saying what I feel either. Maybe I should start putting a disclosure on everything that I post.

***Everything that you have just read is MY opinion.***

HELP!PARENT SIGNATURES NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!
by TOMORROW!!! 9/7/07
FOR POSSIBLE 1/2 DAY KINDERGARTEN CLASS IN ADDITION TO THE CURRENT (2) FULL DAY CLASSES!!!!!
IF YOU, OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW, IS STILL INTERESTED IN A 1/2 DAY
(or would like to switch to 1/2 day) PROGRAM AT HAYES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL, PLEEEEEEESE CALL ME TO GET A FORM TO SIGN!!!!
(216) 521-7276

(I do have some forms already turned in to me!!!)

While attending the Board of Education meeting, there was a decision to add another kindergarten teacher to address the concern of high student to teacher ratio of 28:1 and 29:1 at Hayes. At the meeting I asked if there was a possibility of the option for a separate 1/2 day class, to ease ratios, give the 1/2 day children the opportunity to feel equal to their peers, etc., as well as, less of a transition for the all day kindergartners, who would potentially stay with their current teacher instead of being moved.

After a difficult exchange with Dr. Estrop, he told me that if I was able to find 15 parents who are still interested in the 1/2 day option (many of which have switched, some for fear that there children will be missing out on education) that there would be a consideration for a 1/2 day class.

THE GLITCH IS...I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DISTRIBUTE THE LETTER/FORM OUT IN KINDERGARTNERS BACK PACKS. Therefore, I have been attempting, on my own, to find kindergarten parents at drop off and dismissal but I have my own kids with me and can't be at 4 places at once, (front, back, each classroom). I also do not have access to all the phone numbers, addresses, etc. to distribute the letter offering a choice of 1/2 day IN ADDITION TO the (2) full day classes.

If I do not get at least 15 interested parents, THERE WILL STILL BE A THIRD CLASS ADDED!!!!! Which will split the (2) classes into (3) classes , even more so dispersing the few 1/2 day children to possibly 1 or 2 per class, creating even more of a social stigma. I have my own reasons for choosing 1/2 day as do the parents who choose full day. I just feel it is unfair and irresponsible that the administration did not communicate the structure, the curriculum or the "enriched enhancement" pieces to parents until curriculum night, 2 days before school, with only a handful knowing a week before. Information was not given to several parents participating in the program. There were no community forums, parent surveys, town meetings, information given to preschool parents, etc., (other than an article in The Sun Post in May, and a subsequent news release from Lakewood City Schools on May 14th) that I have found thus far.

More on that later....please help if you can!

Thank you for your consideration!
Mona

Here's the glit

Did I mention that Dr. Estrop said he needed to have the information to him by FRIDAY, 9/7/07! That only gave me Wed. and today to track people down. It seems a slim chance that I will be able to contact everyone by tomorrow. Iwill be up at school tomorrow a.m. and at dismissal with more information sheets if you, or anyone you know from Hayes, is interested. I understand the need for speed, due to the numbers issue...therefore, it would have been nice to have had a little help from the administration in surveying parents. More on that later...

Thanks again!
Mona

Suzie,
My post on Mona being represented was in response to the whole thread. There are serious allegations made in this thread about the full day program and about the parents who chose to try it. Serious bashing if you go and read the whole thread.

In a nutshell, the teachers were called "glorified babysitters".

In a thread about this program there was a statement made that teachers "feel like babysitters" which implied these teachers.

Parents who chose this program were termed "not as involved" and using this as a "non-subsidized daycare".

Implications were made that parents involved at the school volunteering were better parents than those whom were not, and that many parents don't read to their children-in the context of the full day kindergarten discussion.

One working mom was TOLD she had guilt from not being a stay-at-home mother. Told!

The whole program is being bashed and made out to be a failure before it even gets off the ground.

This is where I want to separate Mona's battle from this thread. These are serious allegations that have nothing to do with her quest to separate the full day from the half day.

We will always get what we choose to focus on in life. If we focus on negatives, we will see and get negatives. If we focus on solutions, we can work together to make things better. But because of a decision you find best for you child which I respect 100% and never once would question, it is not fair or right to bash the whole program and the parents who are in it.

As women and mothers we have to spend a lot of time and thought on how we try to not damage our kids and raise them the best way we know how. In the mean time, we can't damage each other.

There is enough pressure on Mom's as it is...we are all on the same team. I think some things were said in the passion of discussion that don't translate well on line.

The point of this thread is to find a viable solution to a problem that Mona and other parents are having. I don't think there is an understanding by the Board of the length that parents go through over the summer to plan for the year and how difficult it is to just switch gears...or schools..mid-stream and the Board needs to communicate with parents the reason and the purpose of the program. This is a prime example of how COMMUNICATION can effect a sitation.

She needs help from the parents involved and is trying to reach out.

Good luck, Mona. I hope this all works out for you and better yet, your kids. I know I would move mountains for my kids, as would you with your own.

Corey, Dad of three

I spent lunch at Hayes today with the Kindergarten and First Grade and walked around to other children because I only saw two lunch aids in the cafeteria. I have to admit it was overwhelming to me. My two children seemed to be doing OK as I observed them from afar, but I feel that each class should be assigned a lunch aid. No way can two aids be enough for all of those kids, especially opening things in their lunch, etc. I followed them outside to the playground area and watched them play. There were some kids very shy sitting on the sidelines, one or two crying. There was also a Kindergarten girl crying in the cafeteria with no one around to comfort her. She missed her parents who were out of town.

Outside I started to cry, feeling overwhelmed by it all and how vulnerable they all looked. The majority seemed perfectly fine but I still felt overwhelmed. So this is where I will eat my humble pie and I asked Mr. Curtin (who was so gracious to meet with me immediately) if I could volunteer for lunch two days a week and he said yes. I am not ready to let go completely yet and I want to mother every child there!!! Humble pie eaten.

My other concern which felt petty when I was communicating it with Mr. Curtin was the heavy doors and no adults to hold them open! The reason I am bringing this up at all is to say he was so receptive and also has concern and they are meeting about issues such as this which were not foreseen. So yes communication is everything. Not only is the Kindergarten a pilot program but the whole school and system is there so I truly appreciate the respectful communication directly at Hayes.

Mona,
You made a heartfelt effort and even though there are not enough children for a half day, you helped influence the rapid response to smaller class sizes. Some children are not ready for full day Kindergarten (time will tell for mine) so just feel good in your heart that you are doing what is right for yours.