The Observation Deck

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Gary Rice wrote: I would invite anyone who feels that teachers are overpaid to step into a classroom and observe what goes on. I look at so many of my non-teaching friends who ended up making two or three times what I've made, and who have not had to go back to school constantly, or deal with violence in the classroom, or with the unfunded mandates that come along from time to time.

There would be much to learn...

That wont convince too many of the bottom-line types.
What will convince them is showing them what a masters degree (now virtually required for classroom teaching) returns in salary in ANY OTHER FIELD BUT EDUCATION.
If you are a parent and are looking at spending $60,000 or more on your childs education, would you advise them to enter a field where $50,000 a year is considered "overpaid"?

David Anderson wrote:Bill -

Despite my best attempts, I simply cannot convince you that the populations of the two districts are not very comparable.

And I just can't seem to convince you that an extra $18 million a year is a lot of money and for an extra $18 million a year we should expect more than excuses.

What continues to bother me in this discussion is its being framed in terms of FAILURE. Because, based on some completely subjective rating system, the end result is to give Lakewood a "C" grade. Never mind that the system scored an overall 25 out of 30....instead, because certain subsets, mandated by NCLB performed in a substandard fashion, the entire system is labeled a failure. Most of that is as a result of test performance by non-english speaking students, economically disadvantaged students, student with disabilities and African American students. In many cases, a single student can count in all four groups. Which is why the total of all groups attending Lakewood schools is
156.2 % of the enrollment.

Why aren't we looking, with a great degree of pride, at the huge success's? These are objective measures that indicate whether real education is taking place:

Mean ACT score: 21.3
Percent of Grads with AP scores of 3 or above: 105 or 66.5% (Brunswick less than half....47)
Number participating in AP tests: 158 (Brunswick 55)

And of course, there is nothing whatever in these grade cards that give any credit for extracurriculars, fine arts, music, etc. All the intangibles.

Jeff

Mr Call wrote:

For example, the Lakewood district pays the employee portion of the PERS pension contribution. Other districts recognize how ruinous it can be to their budgets so they insist on the employees paying the employee portion of PERS.

We do not put money into PERS. Our retirement program is STRS (at corporate it would be a 401K.) I am not sure what you are referring to above but 10% of my pay goes into my retirement. I pay the employee portion directly from my paycheck.

Just wanted to clarify.

Bill -

What excuses are being offered? I'm simply digging into the numbers. You seem to making unsubstantiated claims.

I might have missed your explanation of where your $18,000,000 figure came from. I'm coming up with $5,651,587.

Brunswick - 7,269 students at $8,047 per = $58,493,643.
Lakewood - 5,755 students at $11,146 per = $64,145,230.

(Expenditures per pupil does not include construction/new capital building.)

Bill, what exactly are your expectations for Lakewood's schools? Mine do not begin or end with the graduation rate, which is the lowest the bar can be set. But, rather, go beyond to include honors and Advanced Placement courses/exams which reflect on ACT and college admission exams, the integration of technology K-12 and the availability of an array of extracurricular offerings. (Does Brunswick have a "pay to play" policy?)

Jeff Endress wrote:
Why aren't we looking, with a great degree of pride, at the huge success's? These are objective measures that indicate whether real education is taking place:
Jeff

That's why the report card was irrelevant to me. My 16 yo tested advanced (not gifted) for most of the tests, after being educated here in Lakewood and with me not doing any of his homework! He has such love for his teachers he still visits Roosevelt to see some of them! And I also know if my two youngest encounter any learning problems, they can get the help they need here. Including Library programs where kids can go get help with their homework!

It was the schools that determined why we stayed in Lakewood.

Bill, I do appreciate you looking out for our money. I am not even from Lakewood so am not just a cheerleader for anything that happens here. This is just the experience and reality from one parent.

Rick –

An "economically disadvantaged" student is a student who is a member of a household that meets the income eligibility guidelines for free or reduced-price meals (less than or equal to 185% of Federal Poverty Guidelines under the National School Lunch Program (NSLP). Local districts can employ a number of tools to gather such eligibility information.

I’m not exactly sure what this means regarding the specific income level for a family of three or four. However, Lakewood’s median income of $29,475 is slightly below that of Ohio’s, $30,362.


Bill and Others – Here are some incredibly basic hard to compare comparisons.

District (Economically Disadvantaged) (Students w/ Disabilities) (Per Pupil Expenditure) (Standards Met out of 30)

Bay Village – (6.3%) (12.9%) ($10,181) (30)
Westlake – (7.2%) (14%) ($10,956) (29)
Rocky River – (6.9% (10.3%) ($10,612) (29)
Lakewood – (39.8%) (14.7%) ($11,146) (25)
Cleveland – (100%) (17.6%) ($11,450) (4)
Parma – (30.3%) (17.9%) ($10,485) (24)
Euclid – (58.8%) (19.4%) ($11,170) (5)
Cleveland Hts. – (52%) (17.7%) ($15,488) (13)
Orange – (10.0%) (13.6%) ($17,517) (29)


I've enjoyed your points Justine and Jeff. They get to the true qualitative value of education.

Bill, the only "failure" at this point is the failure to get behind a school system that works. As an educator and employee of the Lakewood City Schools, I proudly serve in a district that offers more opportunities to young people than any other that I know of. Check out our Industrial Arts program, our Health Services program, watch our nationally ranked girls rugby club. What other school offers Sysco networking certification? None. Perhaps it might help to visit our AP Spanish Program. Take a close look, Bill, and find a district that offers the opportunities we do, for the benefit of the students of this city, for less. If life is about choices, then I challenge you to find a public school district in this area with more to choose from.

Peeing into the wind, I know. If everything else said before this doesn't resoundingly refute Bill's initial assertion, this won't either.

Sean

I fully agree with you. A comparison of costs demonstrates nothing unless there is an understanding of the products being compared, my proverbial apples to apples approach. The mandate of NCLB throws this reality on its ear, assuming similar systems, and with the assumption in hand, goes on to give the intended perception that the conclusions its rankings reach have some meaning. But, of course the critical component of adjusting for dissimilar systems is absent, as too is any meaning from the rankings.

There is no value or importance assigned to the Career Pathways, Vocational Ed., 13th year senior program, fine arts, etc. There is no value or importance assigned to the availability (and variety) of AP classes, or the success rate of those who participate in them, other advanced (albeit non-AP) academic programs. If one were shopping for a school district, based entirely upon the "grade card" from the State of Ohio, no doubt its "C" rating would give you pause. But, if you chose to drill down through those numbers to see what they truly represent, and take the time to see what is offered in the Lakewood School system, the opportunities available, you would need to look no further.

Jeff

The ORS (Otter Rating System) gives the Lkwd schools an "A".




Just don't ask for the ORS report regarding security and dress codes...

It comes down to community expectations.

Do we as a community simply want students to graduate from high school or are we willing to invest in above and beyond curriculum and programs at a greater expense? I have and will continue to opt for the latter while understanding that keeping an eye on fiscal efficiency is always needed.

However, hollow unsubstantiated claims of fiscal abuse should not be confused with being a responsible fiscal watchdog.

One other factor just crossed my mind. Lakewood is one of the ONLY school districts that have their own school for the children with severe behavior problems! Most of the other districts, when faced with a student with severe behavior problems, sends the student to an alternative school, like Positive Education Program or other. I don't know which community counts the student then, the Cleveland based school or the original community. When I worked at an alternative school in Maple Hts for a year, there were a few students from Strongsville!

Bill,
If you knew how much communities spent one ONE student per year when sent at an alternative school, you would see how much Lakewood saves by educating their own. Not only is the per day fee much higher than most know, they include a huge transportation fee too! Other than PEP, the alternative schools opening up independently are not monitored by ANYBODY like charter schools are and the owners are making a lot of money!

I'm struggling to understand this. Maybe someone could clarify (again if it was already done). What do the taxpayers really pay per student? I keep hearing that it's because of economically disadvantaged or special needs students but it's also been said that there are federal subsidies. Furthermore if these special needs students are coming from other cities, I certainly hope that we are charging their home district a tuition. I can't imagine that the schools go through the trouble of tracking down and removing "illegals", while paying more for special needs students that they know about. I doubt that these buses park a block away and a bunch of students sneak into the school.
If these two factors are really accounted for and paid for from other sources then why would we be paying more than other districts on a cost per student basis? Or are we just talking about expenses and overlooking where the income comes from? If the reason really boils down to paying teachers more than other areas, well horray for us. Finally a city with their priorities in line. It would make a terrible case for others to follow us though, if our scores don't justify the higher pay.
Like it or not there has to be someway to measure the profitabilility of schools. Think of how compartmentalized cirriculum has become over the past 30 years or so. Our expectations have already been adjusted to recognize that every student is not the same. Since that has been factored in, differences lose their place as an explanation for poor marks. For example, if we look at three students; one traditional academic, one special needs and one a hands-on craftsman. If they are identified and go on their appropriate path shouldn't all three be able to score well on tests if the schools are doing their job?

If they are identified and go on their appropriate path shouldn't all three be able to score well on tests if the schools are doing their job?

Only if the tests are designed to determine success on a particular path. The NCLB tests pretend to have no such specificity.

If these two factors are really accounted for and paid for from other sources then why would we be paying more than other districts on a cost per student basis?

Because that, to whatever degree there is additional funding available, it doesn't cover the entire cost of those special needs programs. This is what geberates the discussion of "unfunded mandates". There are further differences because there are additional offerings in Lakewood (AP, and the like) that do NOT generate additional funding, but require additional outlay that schools without that broad range of opportunities do not have.

Jeff