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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:32 pm
by Colleen Wing
Jim,

I am not in any way implying that you or anyone else has purposely squashed my literary genius at the LO. I am not sure what the LO readers would be interested in reading about, I was just asking. Apparently, I need to figure that out on my own. No problem.

Mr. Ken Warren,

You are an incredibly intelligent and articulate guy; currently you are taking yourself and this "experiment" entirely to seriously. I think you should take a step back and look at your reaction posts, they are becoming increasingly more arrogant and not effective in communicating your view point.

Back on topic of this thread. Don't cover politics, it's too darn political.

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:22 pm
by Gary Rice
Colleen,

In my opinion, you have gone way over the line.

The Observer Project is clearly about the free exchange of ideas; a testing of premises in the public marketplace.

The Observation Deck goes even farther towards inviting the public to engage with their opinions.

Sometimes a dialectic results in consensus. That is probably the best outcome.

Sometimes a dialectic results in divergence. That may only mean that consensus may be delayed for a bit, or that other areas might need to be explored first.

Where I believe that you are over the line, is with your personal remarks concerning Mr. Warren's postings.

For you to call those postings "increasingly more arrogant" and "not effective in communicating", absolutely amazes me.

I take affront to what I regard as a personal attack on a friend. Mr. Warren does not need me to defend him, but I do so, with enthusiasm.

I was a loyal Republican until recently. I have an honors Political Science degree. I could still write an excellent Republic polemic, if I wanted to. Even now, in a debate, I could play the Republican, and come out with a good showing. Certainly better than I've seen from Lakewood Republicans lately. Republican precepts are sound, and their ideals still quite debatable. Yes, I could indeed write well for the Republicans.

Instead, I used my writing talents to compose a campaign song for Ted Strickland.

I became a Democrat, because in conscience, the Republican leadership and the President's actions with the war, and in the field of education, went against my fundamental beliefs.

I had to speak out, but whenever I do, it is to the issues, and not against people.

Apparently, Republicans have been invited repeatedly to submit for the paper.

I personally wonder whether they feel that they have anything left to submit.

If I were still a Republican, I would certainly try, but not at the expense of my friends. At least, that's my opinion.

If you have good ideas Colleen, rise to the occasion. Your party needs you. Just keep to the issues, but do your homework. Be prepared for challenges.

Then let the voters decide.

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:25 pm
by Kenneth Warren
Colleen:

You raised serious questions about the LO. You made statements about “a full page article written about the problems with Conservatives written by a man who's disdain for them was dripping from the page.â€Â￾ You cite “Jim's unnatural affection for Dennis Kucinichâ€Â￾ and then tell us all this really made me rethink participating in The LO at all.â€Â￾

And you do not expect me as an advisor to respond to you seriously and respectfully concerning the theory and practice of the LO project.

Call me arrogant if you wish, but know also that in good faith I supplied a sincere answer from the core of my political being to your issues.

Kenneth Warren

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:21 am
by Mark Reinhold
Jim, Ken, Colleen and Others,

We recently went through a national change that might be healthy.... the three branches of government until 2006 were controlled by one party.

The change really reflects both a change of thought as well as a realization that a balance of political thought is good.

Lakewood has not had this balance of political thought since I moved here 12 years ago. Absolute Democrat control.

Other blogs and posts worry about rising costs... union productivity... raising taxes and cost of living. The these issues typically the fodder for Republican thought.

Standard thought worries about the poor, the middle class, protecting historic buildings in Lakewood, protects union workers and celebrates the Library. Great achievements for the Democrat power base.

Colleen is not the enemy.... I know her, and her love for Lakewood is as real as Jim's is and Ken's is.

A county by county map of the United States shows that the entire country (geographically) is republican... but does that make Republican "domination" right or good..? Although Lakewood is dominated by Democrats is it best for the city to only have one point of view? Nationally... was it good when the democrats had no effect on the political landscape?

Jim, you ask for Colleen to contribute... she contributes 3 paragraphs in a post and faces outward persecution....the same way the Ryan Demro faces in council for a different point of view. It is hard to be a Republican in Lakewood.... Its hard believing in things that stand no chance for approval.

There was a recent post for abstaining from acrimony in the Lenten season.... this can apply to the political divisions too.... Colleen does not enter the fray with a chip on her shoulder.... Jim can not post being the bully of the class and Ken can't be a know it all.

In my opinion Lakewood would also be more politically healthy if the balance of power was more evenly distributed.

The only crime is that all three of you can very, very much for Lakewood.
....guilty as charged! We need all of you.

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:53 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Colleen Wing wrote:Mr. Ken Warren,

You are an incredibly intelligent and articulate guy; currently you are taking yourself and this "experiment" entirely to seriously. I think you should take a step back and look at your reaction posts, they are becoming increasingly more arrogant and not effective in communicating your view point.
Colleen

Ken Warren is the least arrogant person I know.

Ken Warren is probably the most successful person in town at getting things done. While adding a $12 million dollar extension to the Best Library in the country, and heading or being a part of numerous charities and civic group he still gives this project every second demanded of him. For that I will be forever grateful, and the city should be as well.

You have no idea, how dedicated and serious we all are. Why not join the process and give some time. Come to an Observer party and see, before you comment. I remember standing in the rain for hours with Ken at a 100% Republican gathering at Jennifer's house. We left an Observer meeting, in the dry to do so. Now come to an Observer party, warm dry, beverages, even food. Give us half the chance we gave you.

Mark

First, my admiration of Colleen Wing is every bit as large as yours. My appreciation for her and the Republican Party is nearly as big as yours, not the views necessarily, but I know how much work organizing can be.

There is no doubt that many if not all brand me, some wild flaming democratic liberal, and the truth is I am probably not far from that. As I have mentioned I tend to pick my sides by the issue not the R or the D. I have supported candidates from both sides. I would like to know how many of the so call "Centrists" can say the same and show me the checks to support that.

My frustration with Colleen, is that she knows this to be true about me. She knows I do not control the stories getting in the paper, she knows that I have been begging for ANY story the right is willing to put up. No I mean any story a Lakewoodite is willing to put up. We have editors that can work miracles, so English is not the key. I personally never write anything but fluff pieces that are non-political She used a friendship that i have with the Kucinichs as a reason that is based on non-political reasons for a reasons why she will not contribute.

It is all hogwash, does not hold water.

What does hold water is Bret Callentine's comments.

The night Bret called me he told me, I would not like his comments, I said write them. He told me they would never be publish, I said write them. He told me he was assured by members of the Republican Club I would never print them, I said write them. From that moment on Brett Callentine has put up. He has never been told what to write or what not to write. He has never been asked to tone it down.

Two issues ago, the editor assigned to his column found what she thought were inaccuracies in comments about the UN. Bret was called, not sure what happened, but that editor, Emily Hilty worked at the UN, and might be farther to the left than I edited it, cleaned it up, and printed it. I heard nothing wrong from Bret. So I imagine he was OK with it.

Ask every Conservative or Republican who knows me, they know I have been begging for them to write. Jennifer Scott was going to write a column, never came in. Colleen was going to write, never came in. Joe Milan wrote a scathing attack based on no facts, that the editorial staff felt was better a "Letter to the Editor: as that was the style it was written in. Rarely do we publish letters to the editors, as most would be self serving, the ones we publish are like the last issue, negative comments against the paper or how we handle things. Joe was given the choice of leaving it the que, or placing it online, it was placed online, I have the emails of that exchange I would be more than happy to share.

My frustration comes from my personal experience, with three businesses in Lakewood, most taking serious hits because of the time I spend on this paper, and having to hire people to run them, I still find time to write about what is important to me. My total lack of English skills comes from spending way to much time smoking cigarettes(don't try this at home kids) than going to English. I was once assure by a professor at RIT, that I had a command of the English language as good as any seventh grader, but I still try to write.

Ken Warren the busiest man in Lakewood writes, all the people that contribute have other jobs and families they write. LakewoodAlive, who I am a member of, wanted to make sure their message went out, hired a writer to write. So that is hardly an excuse especially from someone within the party that is suppose to be getting their message out. Even when I was getting nothing from the right I would cover Ryan Patrick Demro events, just to have something from the right in the paper. I have never done that for the left. Mark, I believe more than once while debating politics in the elevator I have asked you to write.

My frustration comes from the fact, it is untrue what Colleen took the time to write. It is far easier to attack with the untruth of, it will not get printed, than to write the story. No one has more stories sitting in the well waiting to get printed than Ken Warren with 3, Don Farris with 2, and myself. None are political in nature, none are time sensitive.

The Advisory Board, gives so much of their time just to get information out I hate to ask for anymore. ALL are dedicated to the discussion. My love of Ken Warren comes from the fact that I have watched him and heard him hundreds of times offer thoughts from both sides to aid a discussion. I have seen him asked about a subject he has serious views on, but offer the customer of the library books from both sides of the argument, usually with, "Well if your read this you might want to read this as a dissenting view." One of the few people I have ever met as dedicated to the discussion as I am.

As this has run far longer than it should, I will try to wrap it up. My frustration on this is huge. This past year the Democratic Club ran an ad in the paper, I called Colleen and told her they were running the ad, and asked if they wanted to run an ad. I believe, I could be wrong the answer was "no budget for it." Would the Plain Dealer call?

What has begin to drive me nuts is the baseless attacks on me, the paper, the Deck and the board. We are so open that I encourage these attacks to go public, let's discuss it, let's clear the air, But it is to no avail, it just pops up again and again and again.

So here we have a bleeding heart liberal, spending hours and who knows how much money, begging to get the Right to contribute. I would now like to see the person from the right, write the check for these efforts. Show me the person on the right that is as dedicated to getting the word out about the left, the middle, hell even the right as I am, the LO board is, or this project is they just do not exist in this city.

Luckily, R and Ds mean very little on the local level. It is thoughts and actions that matter in Lakewood. Which is why I love this city.

You have no idea my level frustration.

Hopefully, Ryan Patrick Demro will jump in, as has Bret Callentine.

I will not be able to say it as eloquently as Ken Warren and Bret Callentine's, "Put up or shut up." Instead I just want to thank you for taking part in the discussion, for the minutes you have lent this project, and for sharing your opinion on this and other topics. Because of that effort, all of us and Lakewood has a better understanding of ourselves.

Send checks to Lakewood Observer, Inc. PO Box 770274, Lakewood, Ohio 44107. Or take out an ad, call 216.228.7223 and I will get a sales rep to you. Help us amplify all voices of Lakewood. If you choose not to, that is OK too, we will always be open regardless.

peace

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:34 am
by Mark Reinhold
Jim,

Sorry about any mis-understand on my post ... as far as my comments go, I meant "Jim does not"... or no matter what you think.... Jim is not posting to be a bully, Ken is not posting to be a know it all...etc.

My post was about political representation only.

I don't care what is in the paper. I like the observation deck more than anything. The emotions are more real than the "facts" in the paper.

I remember ALL our conversations.... I am a "professional listener" who can draw. You never have asked me to write.

I would tell you no matter what goes in the paper... I think you are listed in the paper as the editor.... You are responsible for what goes in the paper. No matter how much you protest, no matter how much nobody writes (rights)... a newspaper is an editors medium, not a reporters medium. I think the young man across the hall from me is on staff (?). I think he would write anything you tell him to.The paper by the nature of print reflects you and represents facts more than a post does. I always thought that the paper reads too much like a blog, too much opinion, an editorial paper. This is only MY opinion.

About reaching out to the right ... on a rainy day... Ryan Demro spoke about 10 minutes on the day of his Birthday Party. 5 minutes were on issues, 1 minute thanking people and about 4 minutes thanking, praising and reflecting on you and Ken. This is in no way was just you reaching out to the right... You were met in the middle... and then some.

I would imagine it is hard being picked apart.... both rightfully and absurdly. I would say that this is the place you have put yourself. If you don't like your position, stop doing it. I would be OK. I know a Doctor who was complaining about his hours... his wife's comments was "Hey buddy you are the one who chose to be here."

You are what you are, its fun... it adds fellowship... this not Leave it to Beaver...fighting is fun... agreeing is fun... Being in Lakewood.

I would guess that you enjoy it quite a great deal (this place you have put yourself), you should.

observer

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:02 am
by Bill Call
Jim O'Bryan wrote:My frustration with Colleen, is that she knows this to be true about me. She knows I do not control the stories getting in the paper, she knows that I have been begging for ANY story the right is willing to put up. No I mean any story a Lakewoodite is willing to put up. We have editors that can work miracles, so English is not the key. I personally never write anything but fluff pieces that are non-political She used a friendship that i have with the Kucinichs as a reason that is based on non-political reasons for a reasons why she will not contribute.
I stopped submitting articles for the print edition of the Observer because they don't get printed.

I submitted a short article about the free market alternatives and the health care industry. It was written in response to an article in the Observer written by Gordon. It showed up in the on line version but not the print version. Why is that?

I would like to write and article about the City's new income tax department and the costs and benefits of RITA but why bother? I spent a lot of time on the Fire Department overtime article. I was told more than once it would be in the next edition but it was never printed.

Collen has a point regarding the liberal tilt of the Observer. Conservative voices are not given an outlet in the print edition. Since it's not my paper I don't really have a problem with that, just stop pretending that the print issues are balanced.

To alternative voices out there: Write your posts with the expectation that no one will agree with what you. It makes the process less frustrating. In the rare case where someone does agree with you re-evaluate your position. :lol:

As to the Observer and the role it can play in making the City a better place to live:

This City is facing a fiscal and demographic crisis. The Observer can be a venue for exploring solutions to those challenges or it can be the rah rah boy for the administration. It can't be both.

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:05 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Mark

Thanks for the kind words.

Just to address a couple things.

Ken and I had no idea what the Ryan Patrick Demro party was going to be. I was actually waiting for a lynching. :wink:

Ken and I went, because we support those that support this project. Also I like Jennifer Scott and we have spoken numerous times in the driveway of Kiwanis as she waited for her father John Brinkman. I get a kick out of her, and wish she would write.

As for employees or other writing what I tell them. It is not my style, never has been. To be honest, if I did not know you I would be offended. I have worked every day to make sure no ego, nor slant goes into the paper. I work with a crew I trust on that subject.

For the record I am the publisher, and the buck stops here.


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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:21 am
by Gary Rice
Mark,

Regardless of how you meant to phrase it, using Jim's name in conjunction with "bully of the class", and Ken's name connected with "know it all", does not help your credibility with the rest of your discussion, even with the positive things you said later, or with your explanatory corrective retraction now.

As a Political Science major, I know full well, the value of a "sound bite". That point is remembered far more than whatever other prosaic drivel that a politician might speak or right.

Words are powerful.

You state to Jim "You have never asked me to write". Oh yes he has. He asks all of us to write. You do not need a personally engraved invitation to do so.

You allude to my "no acrimony during Lent" remarks. I say "Yes, and it's about time we started".

But that does not mean we can't debate issues.

You state that "emotions are more real than the "facts" in the paper".

My understanding of your remarks, and Colleen's, would be that the emotions appear to be running pretty high on your end, more so than any I've seen having to do with the paper.

Show us issues that we can speak to, so that we can debate.

Between your posting, and Colleen's, I would hope that good will indeed comes of this, and Republicans will rise to engage.

In my opinion, they have nowhere to go but up, at this point.

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:36 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Bill Call wrote:I stopped submitting articles for the print edition of the Observer because they don't get printed.

I submitted a short article about the free market alternatives and the health care industry. It was written in response to an article in the Observer written by Gordon. It showed up in the on line version but not the print version. Why is that?

I would like to write and article about the City's new income tax department and the costs and benefits of RITA but why bother? I spent a lot of time on the Fire Department overtime article. I was told more than once it would be in the next edition but it was never printed.

Collen has a point regarding the liberal tilt of the Observer. Conservative voices are not given an outlet in the print edition. Since it's not my paper I don't really have a problem with that, just stop pretending that the print issues are balanced.

To alternative voices out there: Write your posts with the expectation that no one will agree with what you. It makes the process less frustrating. In the rare case where someone does agree with you re-evaluate your position. :lol:

As to the Observer and the role it can play in making the City a better place to live:

This City is facing a fiscal and demographic crisis. The Observer can be a venue for exploring solutions to those challenges or it can be the rah rah boy for the administration. It can't be both.
Bill

Thank you for your selective memory loss.

Let's start with the Fire Article. It was I, that offered to back you up on your threat of a lawsuit, over not getting information. It was I that sat next to you in a show of support when we talked with the Fire Department, and legal council. It was I that walked down the stairs with you that day when you turned and said, "Well these seem like good honest people." It was you and I and others that thought we needed to get numbers right not just guess on something this important. You me and Heidi, tpogether agreedyour raw numbers needed some context as charts tell no story.

When you called an threatened to give it to the Sunpapers I told you to do what you want with it. It was not ready for print and you agreed. I said I would appreciate us getting it as you used the Observer name when you threatened to sue. I told you at any time you could put your numbers on the Deck, you ended up putting an abridge version, with no complaints from me. The Sun Papers, The PD and FreeTimes often borrow our topics for stories. No one has cared to touch this.

You have to admit your constant "Do you still beat your wife" style of questioning, is tough. But I have never told you to be anything else than what you are.

As for Health Care, I will ask Heidi, to be honest I do not remember it. I do remember you wanting to do a inquest into Lakewood Hospital and lay bare how they are hurting the city. I remember all to well sitting with our largest advertiser and asking them if they would open their books to you. I remember NO HESITATION from Jack Gustin or the media department. I do remember you not showing up to do the story.

Everyone has to remember it is not open source. It is civic source. In the end it is I who gets sued, no one else. I have asked no one else to take legal or financial responsibility. As such if it is unfounded and opens my family to legal action I hope you understand why I want numbers checked and put into context.

Bill let's be honest here, you can't bring it. You make your attacks on fire, health care and the city. Little traps set, and mud thrown. When the figures don't add up your way you lose interest and walk away to start the next random fire.

Thanks for the note.


.

P

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:49 am
by Bill Call
Jim O'Bryan wrote:As for Health Care, I will ask Heidi, to be honest I do not remember it. I do remember you wanting to do a inquest into Lakewood Hospital and lay bare how they are hurting the city. I remember all to well sitting with our largest advertiser and asking them if they would open their books to you. I remember NO HESITATION from Jack Gustin or the media department. I do remember you not showing up to do the story.
In regards to the hospital article, I emailed your contact person at the hospital at least twice. I was told that they were busy and that they would get back to me. I am still waiting. I do remember going to your office and discussing this issue. You left a message with Jack and gave him my number. I never heard from him.

Just for the record: I did not contact you regarding an article on the hospital, you contacted me.

As to the fire department article: I was told twice that it would appear in the next issue. Since you didn't specify which next issue I guess I shouldn't complain.

Re: P

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:52 am
by Bill Call
Bill Call wrote:Just for the record: I did not contact you regarding an article on the hospital, you contacted me.

FOOD FIGHT!!!!

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:14 am
by Mark Reinhold
Gary,

NOT to be the bully....etc ...Meaning he posts and writes because he cares.... Ken posts and writes because he cares. So does Colleen, so do you.

Jim, no hangings go on at the republican parties. Just shotguns. You are boss.... its not ego to tell people what to do. People tell me what to do all the time. I meant not to insult by talking about your business.

The paper has a Left slant.... It should stop saying that it does not. Celebrate it. Is there a reason that it can't be a Democrat paper? Lakewood is a Democrat town.


[/b]

Re: P

Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:26 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Bill Call wrote:
Bill Call wrote:Just for the record: I did not contact you regarding an article on the hospital, you contacted me.

FOOD FIGHT!!!!
Bill

Thanks again for selective memory loss. This came from YOU not I talking about taxes at the hospital. That someone should look into it. That they are paraphrasing, ripping us off and getting ready to close and move out of town. I did call you based on your post, you offered the story I offered to back you on it.

I went to bat, no one in the batter's box to get the lob.

That said, what I meant was, you are correct why bother. Why encourage you or any one on the right to send in stuff. I should write what I want, I should advertise my businesses, I should play this exactly the way I am accused of playing it. I should close the door to the right instead of trying to be fair.

Thanks for the reason, but that would be your game.

I will not play that way.


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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:29 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Mark Reinhold wrote:Gary,

NOT to be the bully....etc ...Meaning he posts and writes because he cares.... Ken posts and writes because he cares. So does Colleen, so do you.

Jim, no hangings go on at the republican parties. Just shotguns. You are boss.... its not ego to tell people what to do. People tell me what to do all the time. I meant not to insult by talking about your business.

The paper has a Left slant.... It should stop saying that it does not. Celebrate it. Is there a reason that it can't be a Democrat paper? Lakewood is a Democrat town.


[/b]

Mark

I agree with take ownership and celebrate.

It is not true.

What is true that you and Colleen have written enough for two columns explaining why bother.

I went back into the logs, no Colleen Wings articles ever submitted. No Mark R writings ever submitted, into the Member Center that I have personally spent enough to buy a Lexus to develop, just to keep the process fair and me out of it.

As for the Observation Deck, also known as one small part of this project. So you are telling me that you, Colleen, Mark, Bill and everyone else can post, but not the people that built this for equal and fair discussion? I always figured you for a Conservative. Now that sounded like a Republican post. Let us rant and carry on, just do not defend yourself or post anything negative about us.

But like the war in Iraq, why let facts get in the way of party line.

On second thought, you are all probably right, time to celebrate my roots through the next two election cycles. Spend my time writing instead of enlarging this project to be more inclusive.


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