The Observation Deck

Gin and beer is not a Boilermaker. That would be whiskey & beer.

Kate Kate Kate

I know of many that do.

I believe this is referring to the notion that many conservatives would like to abolish entitlement programs. It's a sweeping statement for or against either way. Doing away with them after nearly 70 years is out of the question. Whole generations of people have been weened into virtual slavery on welfare and food stamps, so cold turkey-- would certainly have bad (worse) social effects than continuing to dole out public funds.

What is really missing is accountability. No compassionate person would want to kick someone in hard times. My sister in-law has worked welfare fraud for 30 years and believe me, there are staggering numbers of fraud to balance the innocent picture of folks down on their luck. These stories can never be told, because what paper would dare publish the facts? We (collectively as a nation) can't handle the truth. No, like most crime, it's handled the best that can be done with available, limited resources. It's not all rosy, drug-free folks just trying to survive though, so let's just level the reality meter.

As for the job, great concept if you can find one. I myself have never had a problem. Wait I have almost always worked for myself.

Jim, forgive me but everybody "works for themselves." Somewhere along the line, unions and other social patriots tried to convince the populace that they were "owed a living." The fact that you figured out that working for the man at a corporation or selling your wares on the street is exactly the same thing should be lesson number one that our government (public) schools are teaching. It's not, but this is another (very related) topic.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy into that only smart entrepreneurs like yourself (and myself and a million others) are capable of surviving bad times because we were ambitious and tenacious and motivated - and worked for "ourselves." It takes at least two to transact commerce.

Still I do know many that are suffering. Most were in high paying specialty work for NASA etc. That no longer get $60 an hour and are trying to pay for that lifestyle with $6.00 and hour jobs.

But as the market dries up and it is drying up, things will get tough.

This is happening all over the US. Nobody likes suffering. It's not something that happens in a vacuum either. People who make $60 an hour should know enough to get out of Dodge if the money isn't there. Sorry, but that's how it works. My nephew just left Flint, MI after the company folded. He found better work in the dreaded south around Charleston SC, making more money with a brand new manufacturing plant.

Should he have stayed behind with his 3 kids to make $6.00 an hour? I don't think so - and yes, fortunate to be able to have left. But he made the decision and sacrifice. It's this same pioneering spirit that built this country. People pushed west for this reason. We're in a global economy, but many would like to revert to isolationism. It's not going to put the genie back in the bottle.

Kate was asking for some statistics about how entitlements keep people out of trouble. Would also like to know.

dl meckes wrote:Gin and beer is not a Boilermaker. That would be whiskey & beer.

Not where I am from.


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Dustin James wrote:

Kate Kate Kate

I know of many that do.

I believe this is referring to the notion that many conservatives would like to abolish entitlement programs. It's a sweeping statement for or against either way. ...

Jim

Of course it is a sweeping statement. Do not have the time or fancy to discuss this indepth. But generally conservatives would say give the money back to the people and let them invest. They are more wise than the government...

But it just doesn't work. If to make sure we get it to those that need it, and a couple skim. So be it. there is prison for the glamorous life of living on the welfare check illegally.

Jimmy the country is headed for the big depression. Time to smell the coffee. As the economy spins down, what brings us out? Manufacturing? Nope gone. Service Industry? Nope gone. Tech Jobs? Sorry they are gone to. So where do these jobs come from? what the big future industry in America. Nurses and medical for our dying years!

You and I are not fair debaters on this. You are one of only a handful of people I know that could make a handsome living starting with a bar napkin and a borrowed pen. Me, I always seem to get by.

We have never had it tough. Not tough like it is going to get.

That's why I like it in walking distance of a bunch of fresh water.

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Okay I'll say it another way. A sweeping statement is in effect invalid - or more accurately a statement that excludes as much as it includes.

Jim

Of course it is a sweeping statement. Do not have the time or fancy to discuss this in depth. But generally conservatives would say give the money back to the people and let them invest. They are more wise than the government...

JimO, this is a perfect example of sweeping generality, thank you. I've heard this "generally" in terms of Social Security which is something we both pay $ into. I would have loved the ability to invest "some' (and the dialog has always been only some) of the money.

But it just doesn't work. If to make sure we get it to those that need it, and a couple skim. So be it. there is prison for the glamorous life of living on the welfare check illegally.

I wasn't aware that it's ever been tried. And how hard is it to be wiser than the government? But I love the accuracy of your statement...give the money BACK to the people. Can you imagine if people had to write a check from their checking account for 30% of their income each year? No it's way more insidious, it's deducted before anyone sees it. This only applies to the roughly 50% of the country who actually pay income tax of course. It was frightening when the tax rebates first came on the scene and there were many people demanding that they get theirs... people who did not pay any taxes!

Jimmy the country is headed for the big depression. Time to smell the coffee. As the economy spins down, what brings us out? Manufacturing? Nope gone. Service Industry? Nope gone. Tech Jobs? Sorry they are gone to. So where do these jobs come from? what the big future industry in America. Nurses and medical for our dying years!

Geez, you and Ryan sound ready for the shrine to pessimism award. Doom and gloom city. Hey the south is booming, come on down, lot's of cheery sunshine to get rid of that grey, overcast Cleveburg blues

You and I are not fair debaters on this. You are one of only a handful of people I know that could make a handsome living starting with a bar napkin and a borrowed pen. Me, I always seem to get by.

Very kind words - thank you. But I wonder why immigrants used to come here and make it with nothing. And I mean NOTHING - and we're not allowed to compare to that work ethic anymore? These were not just "here and there" stories. These were everywhere stories. Whole cities stories. What happened? Bad politics? Bad administrations? Lest I get caught up in sweeping generalities, it does seem like a bygone notion and I just wonder why it's gone now?

We have never had it tough. Not tough like it is going to get.

That's why I like it in walking distance of a bunch of fresh water.

Fair enough. "There but for the grace of God go I."

I can dig it. But being gloomy sure won't help matters either

Dustin James wrote:

Very kind words - thank you. But I wonder why immigrants used to come here and make it with nothing. And I mean NOTHING - and we're not allowed to compare to that work ethic anymore? They were not just "here and there" stories. They were everywhere stories. Whole cities stories. What happened? Bad politics? Bad administrations? Lest I get caught up in sweeping generalities, it does seem like a bygone notion and I just wonder why it's gone now?

We have never had it tough. Not tough like it is going to get.

That's why I like it in walking distance of a bunch of fresh water.

Fair enough. "There but for the grace of God go I."

I can dig it. But being gloomy sure won't help matters either

Jim


there is a very big difference between doom and gloom and realistic, or even more important prepared. What is going on in the world is not an accident, there is way to much involved by people and countries to just be happen chance.

Just some weird marketing ploy that got 1/3 of America to refinance, then told everyone, "you can pay those cards off with a home equity line..." It is evil. But in the twenties and thirties we had steel, manufacturing. Cleveland was the zipper capital of the world, now?

Rubel backed with gold. Euro considering it. America too broke to even think of that kind of stability is left hanging with handshake money and super bills from Korea. It just doesn't get any better than that does it? I mean it is easy to see a super-bill, we all know what a twenty looks like!

But with the real investment money gone, there is still time to invest in commodities; fruit salad, aspirin, potted ham, sardines. where you are at you want to stay away from the freeze dried stuff. Between the poor tearing apart the water treatment plant for copper pipes to sell for crack rocks, and the Chinese repossessing the land for their toxic wastes. You are going to want food with liquid in it already.

Sorry, getting ready to write again, got carried away.


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there is a very big difference between doom and gloom and realistic, or even more important prepared. What is going on in the world is not an accident, there is way to much involved by people and countries to just be happen chance.

Just some weird marketing ploy that got 1/3 of America to refinance, then told everyone, "you can pay those cards off with a home equity line..." It is evil. But in the twenties and thirties we had steel, manufacturing. Cleveland was the zipper capital of the world, now?

Rubel backed with gold. Euro considering it. America too broke to even think of that kind of stability is left hanging with handshake money and super bills from Korea. It just doesn't get any better than that does it? I mean it is easy to see a super-bill, we all know what a twenty looks like!

But with the real investment money gone, there is still time to invest in commodities; fruit salad, aspirin, potted ham, sardines. where you are at you want to stay away from the freeze dried stuff. Between the poor tearing apart the water treatment plant for copper pipes to sell for crack rocks, and the Chinese repossessing the land for their toxic wastes. You are going to want food with liquid in it already.

Sorry, getting ready to write again, got carried away.

JimO-
I was being sarcastic about the gloomy talk. You are correct about the really heavy shit going down globally (of which we in the U.S. participate). It's a bit overwhelming and it reflects a wider spinning vortex called technology-time (once called Internet time). We differ from one point -and we don't need to go there, about grand conspiracies, coordinated across borders by trilateral commissions, federal reserve banks, et al.

It's your choice to believe that people in powerful places are that smart and that coordinated. I work at one of the biggest companies in the world and we can barely get a marketing campaign out the door. It's like Dr. Evil demanding ONE MILLION DOLLARS. If those guys exist, they are not coordinated efforts. The marketplace however, replete with 24 hour cable and cheap TV spots, can put a dopey sounding name like DiTech and put it on the map. Run enough of anything and people start to believe it's true (Survivor, Lost, American Idol (whoops), etc.)

You're right about the credit situation. It's deplorable. I don't believe it's a conspiracy, but I do believe too many people are way over extended. Not so much on credit cards (they are paying them down in record numbers), but on home equity and mortgages.

Hey, no harm. Thanks for letting me rant. We agree on a few things. I just don't want to become too depressed, because it's hard to try to influence change in that state of mind.
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Dustin James wrote:We differ from one point -and we don't need to go there, about grand conspiracies, coordinated across borders by trilateral commissions, federal reserve banks, et al.

It's your choice to believe that people in powerful places are that smart and that coordinated. I work at one of the biggest companies in the world and we can barely get a marketing campaign out the door. It's like Dr. Evil demanding ONE MILLION DOLLARS. If those guys exist, they are not coordinated efforts. The marketplace however, replete with 24 hour cable and cheap TV spots, can put a dopey sounding name like DiTech and put it on the map. Run enough of anything and people start to believe it's true (Survivor, Lost, American Idol (whoops), etc.)

You're right about the credit situation. It's deplorable. I don't believe it's a conspiracy, but I do believe too many people are way over extended. Not so much on credit cards (they are paying them down in record numbers), but on home equity and mortgages.

Hey, no harm. Thanks for letting me rant. We agree on a few things. I just don't want to become too depressed, because it's hard to try to influence change in that state of mind.
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Jim

I do not believe in one grand conspiracy. I believe in hundreds of small grand conspiracies. It is the only thing saving our collective asses.

As admitted by a member of the "Bilderbergs"(W.H. Smith Ltd.). We would like to run the world. You have to admit one world government would be better than hundreds of smaller governments. But we have not been able to do it yet. or another, There are two many people within the group trying to grab more power for themselves...

But the truth is Federal Reserve, World Bank, Tri-Lateral Commission, and Bilderbergs are basically the same people using different names. I had lunch with Barbara Anne Farris who mentioned she worked at the World Bank. I asked if it was as evil as I thought. Her answer was I was only 90% right. They also do some good. I brought up the good they were doing in South America and Africa and she admitted it was not a pretty picture.

The World Bank comes in and saves bankrupt countries, then tells them how the country will be run, what they grow, what industry will be let in, etc. While trampling the rights of every citizen that lives there. I know one problem that has always bothered them and the Federal Reserve(same group of bankers) They could never bankrupt the USA.

We guess what. I guess they have figured that little problem out.

One master conspiracy, no.

As far as getting your marketing campaign out. From what I hear W.H. Smith Ltd. still has time planning their yearly get together. So sometimes the shrimp aren't ready. But they opened and industrilized China on their timetable with Nixon. They moved jobs out of America with the help of Bush-Clinton-Bush. They made unheard of profits through this war. they do have enough influence to move entire money markets. To ignore them is very foolish.

Depressed? Why get depressed? You and I never had a handle on it anyway. It is not like something we lost. But I do like to know the players names. I do like to watch what is going on. It is the great game, the grand illusion. This is why I comment on national and international politics and policy, but keep my actions to the city I live in. At home, we can still make a difference.

FWIW

That no longer get $60 an hour and are trying to pay for that lifestyle with $6.00 and hour jobs.

Jimmeh

if this cat made sixty dollars an hour one day and then could only get a six dollar an hour job the next, then i'm thinking nasa maybe let the right person go.

and please spare me the lifestyle pity party. right after thanksgiving my husband had to take a significant pay cut. i'm talking about a quarter of his pay just gone. right on the brink of winter with its high heating bills and christmas. did we try to maintain our lifestyle? um, no. we adjusted it to meet the needs. excuse me if i don't cry in the ex-nasa employee's cappuccino.

and did you say "bilderberg"? shhhhhhhhh

on a ligher note....

Used to be my favorite at the Stop and Go.

ahhh, the old stop and go. much of my underage drinking was done at that little hole in the wall. i used to work at the marathon on elmwood there and the stop and go made getting off of work pleasant. nothing like the smell of gas and beer...or was it vodka i can't be sure, must have been the big oil company fumes going to my head and affecting my memory.

Kate

Why dissect the conversation to make the point. the point is not NASA. It is what happens to Mr. NASA as he comes back down to earth. As he shrinks and shrinks his lifestyle, at what point does he have no options left? At what point does 1 out of 1,000 decide to steal just once to make ends meet? At what point does another 5 out of 5,000 turn to drugs and alcohol, and then crime, etc.

What we are talking about is the collapse of America as you and I knew it.

At what point do a percentage say, hmmmmmmmm?

Honestly read the book Ultra Chic it is an interesting look at how most of the country is but a couple paychecks away from their castles and lifestyles crumbling. Some like you just buckle down and make it work. Others might not be as creative or wise.

This is not to say all of NASA goes on a crime spree. But in tough times people do tough things.

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Jim O'Bryan wrote:
This is not to say all of NASA goes on a crime spree. But in tough times people do tough things.

I would have to imagine it's easier to force a guy into his car with a knife and get his wallet and cigs, than it is to find a job, work for a few weeks, and wait for a check... Just guessing. I mean, talk about American's wanting everything now, now, now. (Yes, I was pissed about the cigs. My poor, poor Camels.)

Like I always end the detailed version of the "I-Got-Robbed" story: It's cool if you want to steal from a bank or corporation, or even the guy getting into his 2006 Lotus. They probably won't miss the money, and they'll get over it. Not that I would do it or condone it, but whatever. But when you steal from a working class zero that's leaving the bank after he had to deposit $200 cash to cover an overdraft, and gets into his beat-to-hell '93 Mustang, that's wrong. I work my ass off to live the way I do. Not to say the Lotus driver doesn't, but come on: a 20 out of my pocket is a bigger deal than the 20 out of his. (By the way, this is hypothetical; the dude didn't get any cash from me.)

I joked about carrying a crack rock instead of a gun; it'd be a more humane just to toss it at him and split, then I considered that not all of those willing to rob a guy are actually out for drugs. So, I'll stick with the gun.

And no, NASA is not on a crime-spree. My parents (former NASA employees) just found new jobs. My dad works for a subcontractor or NASA, and my mom for Highland Software in Westlake. Or maybe they are on a crime-spree. I haven't talked to them in a few months.

Dick

I love how everyone says, "they should all just go out and get a job!" as if it was as easy as turning on a light switch. Whammo! Instant job! Not really. I don't think the typical criminal is some woebegone parent with 4 kids to feed and a heart of gold. But I think the path that lead a sweet and innocent babe in arms to a criminal willing to steal, hurt or even kill to get so very little isn't as simple as laziness. In this era of check cards and credit cards it would have to be a busy week of criminal activities to make up enough money to equal even a decent paycheck from a minimum wage job. Maybe some oldsters on here carry a lot of cash (and by oldsters, I mean people older than my late 30's self! ) like my dad did. He had a roll of bills that could do some damage if thrown at someone. Me, if I have more than $20 on me I must have found money in the couch or something because I use a check card for every major purchase like gas, food, shopping, etc. A ring, maybe a cell phone and some cash is not a great way to make a living. It isn't that easy, either. Someone holds me up, I would happily (by that I mean fearfully) hand over my wallet knowing that there isn't much of value in it that can't be replaced. Cards can be cancelled, money paid back, SS cards re-ordered, pictures replaced, driver's license redone, etc. They have about 10 minutes to use those cards because as soon as I get to a phone and call the police the second call is to the bank to cancel my check card.

I work in the near west side of Cleveland with folks who have been in and out of the criminal justice system for a variety of crimes. I know a lot of guys (and gals) who genuinely would be a good worker in the kind of job that would be a match for someone with sometimes limited skills (I work with people with disabilities of some sort) but they can't catch a break. How much help do they get finding a job? A fair amount if they qualify for the right program but most people out of work don't have access to BVR or agencies like LEAP, Cornucopia or VGS to help find a job. These professional agencies, whose sole mission is to find people jobs, are having a hard time finding folks jobs. I have some cases that have been opened for nearly a year...and this is having a person dedicated to someone to spend time combing the papers, calling in contacts, hitting the streets, making calls, etc. And even they are having hard time finding jobs. Take someone without the resources, contacts, ability and training to job hunt and tell them they have to get a job soon or their assistance will run out and what are you left with? Desperate people who might turn to crime or might have kids who turn to crime.

To some crime might simply mean mugging someone, but this is the rarest crime. Most of the families stuck in situations like this will find other ways because let's face it, humanity has a way of surviving even the darkest times. But their acts are no less criminal and cost real money, even if it isn't a young man on a street corner being mugged. Some build up a level of bills that are insurmountable and then go chapter 11 (harder to do now, of course). Some move to a new place, pay for a while if they can, then go into the process of eviction which can take months, then run out and leave everything behind. They let their phone/gas/electric bills shoot up (not on purpose but they have no money!) and when they get shut off, the move and open an account in their husband's name. Or their boyfriend's. Or in the case of a few families I worked with, their kid's names and SS numbers. Or they simply go without. Some live on the heat from their open oven in the winter because their gas bills are too high.

So maybe momma isn't the thief but she can't provide for her kids any more so what do they do when they want something? Get a job? They may try for a while but we go back to the top where there aren't jobs for everyone out there, even skilled folks. There are only so many Wendy's or Blockbuster video stores out there.

While I would never condone crime, I can't simply write it off as lazy poor folk who just don't want to find a job. I think it is complicated and will only get worse until something brings jobs to this area.

Sorry to blather on about this but I hate it when things get boiled down into simplistic arguments like this (even though I engage in it myself from time to time).

Phil


PS On a side note, I wonder if there are too many seniors taking up jobs of the younger folks?? I go to a fast food place or a grocery store and I see a TON of seniors...like serious seniors, not folks in their 50's and 60's nearing retirement but clearly folks well into retirement. I love that they want to add to their (possibly) meager fixed incomes but every senior spending their golden years asking if I want fries with that is taking a job from a young hoodlum-in-the-making. Hmmm...

I didn't intend to over simplify the problem. I think I was just over simplifying your philosophy. My point is that it's easier to commit crime than it is to find a job. Not that they want to, but because it's the only way they can get by. Who knows why the guy robbed me? It could've been to donate the spoils to Hospice. I don't know.

I know how hard it is to find a job. Hell, I have a job, and I can't find another job. Although, I think I also have a fear of change, and that's completely different topic.

Dick

Dick

It is only ease doing the crime if you do not run the equation. I call this A+B thinking. A=I need money, B=crime. Of course what is missing is =T with T being time in jail, harder to find a job, legal expenses, etc.

However you bring up another interesting point. Check overdrafts. Illegal if done on purpose.

So we can add that into the mix. A guy bounces a check to help cover food for another week. First one store, then another, before you know it we have a career criminal and a person that is desperate to stay out of jail.

Again i think Phil and I are not talking about telling the kids to use water instead of milk on cereal. I think we are talking, lost the house, and no where but someone else's hose to get the water.

And the noose tightens! Today it was announced that the Fed will go up a half a point instead of a 1/4 point. At that rate high interest like the 70s is right around the corner. How many that took vacations bought cars, added that addition thought 12% would ever show up in their variable rate loan?!

Another example that I see all over the place. A friend owns a little machine shop with his family. They had a pretty good business for years. Not great, but provided Mom, Dad, and three sons with money to live. One son sells, one works in the shop, the other recently left to Arizona. But in recent years the business has been barely breaking even, but they are trying to keep it going. Clients have moved overseas or closed, but they are but one good contract away from being solvent.

Recently one son bought a nice double in Lakewood, got another loan to pay for a new roof. then the basement leaked, and he got it waterproofed, now the driveway needs to be redone. Because he does deliveries for the business he has a Ford SUV that is now a little past it's prime so that it is in the shop more than a new car. For years I told him to sell it while the selling is good. Last month he decided he had to get out from under the gas guzzler. One month at a fair price not one call. so he continues to drive his 10MPG vehicle to a job that is barely paying his interest in loans, meanwhile Mom digs into her house equity to go another month.

We are talking hard working people about to collapse and loose everything on a catastrophic level. I actually could tell this story using about seven different families I know.

Another hard working family just bought a new larger house in Lakewood, and has not been able to sell their old house. they never expected to pay two mortgages for more than a year. It is causing unbelievable tension. The husband works at a school in Elyria. Last week the family car broke down and had to be towed and fixed. Another dream about to end? I know a couple of these families.

Another friend who is self employed and has a son that has been diagnosed with a lifelong health problem. The guy is self insured and they told him it will cause his rates to go through the roof. One comment was, as long as he has the child he will continue to loose money until bankruptcy.

One of my businesses, printing. Print shops are closing all over town and the country. The one thing we have noticed is with over 1/3 of the shops closed that were open 10 years ago, no one has noticed any increase in business?! Odd? This again would show me that we are about to add a bunch of printers to the jobless list.

Kate, Joan, Dick

As much as I hate to say it I could write this for at least a day.

So the question is. How many people are Taco Bell looking for? Especially when there are less and less people that can afford to even eat at Taco Bell?

Have you been to a pawn shop recently? Stuff all over the place. Pawn shops are booming businesses. Need 5 bucks, take that circular saw you never use anymore. Then the nail gun, then the golf clubs, then, wait I have nothing left. Well my neighbor has golf clubs. I'm just pawning them, when I get that job at Taco Bell I will get them out...

This will get ugly I fear.

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MR. o.....

You're a man of many contradictions (nothing wrong with that, of course)

You tell us we soon won't be able to buy a Gordita with the economy in the tank, yet you can barely contain your glee over the construction of condos costing many hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Are there THAT many members of the Trilateral Commission living in or near Lakewood?