The Observation Deck

Now Bill,

You are making far too much sense here - you better stop before soeone gets hurt!!



Peace,
~Charyn

Mr. Call.

As I've said, I agree with your concepts, if not your numbers. Just two questions.

1. Do we know for a fact that the 'STARS' contribution is unique to Lakewood? If every other school district in the area does this, does it not put Lakewood at an extreme disadvantage in hiring qualified teachers? What do the lions share of other districts do, and shouldn't we use that as our guideline?

2. Big question. I believe that while you're thinking is sound, it will be vigorously opposed by teachers. Without endorsing or rejecting what you say, I merely pose the question: Is Lakewood prepared to endure what may very well be a long and bitter teachers' strike over this? Will the money returned to homeowners' pockets be worth the fight?

Personally, I believe we can do it with less nastiness if we look to do things incrementally. But that will take years. Are you willing to accept gradual change?

Joan Roberts wrote:Mr. Call.

As I've said, I agree with your concepts, if not your numbers. Just two questions.

1. Do we know for a fact that the 'STARS' contribution is unique to Lakewood? If every other school district in the area does this, does it not put Lakewood at an extreme disadvantage in hiring qualified teachers? What do the lions share of other districts do, and shouldn't we use that as our guideline?

2. Big question. I believe that while you're thinking is sound, it will be vigorously opposed by teachers. Without endorsing or rejecting what you say, I merely pose the question: Is Lakewood prepared to endure what may very well be a long and bitter teachers' strike over this? Will the money returned to homeowners' pockets be worth the fight?

Personally, I believe we can do it with less nastiness if we look to do things incrementally. But that will take years. Are you willing to accept gradual change?

Joan:

1. Parma schools recently agreed to pay a portion of the 10% employee portion. I think they agreed to 3%. I don't know if other districts pay the employee portion of the retirement. What other districts pay is relevant when you go into arbitration. I am not a fan of arbitration because the negotiations go something like this:

ARBITRATOR TO UNION: What do you want?

UNION: We want it all.

ARBITRATOR TO SCHOOLS: Give it to them.

Of course that takes a couple of months. The arbitrator is paid by the hour.

I don't think what other districts pay should be relevant in what Lakewood offers. If all of Lakewood's teachers retired tomorrow we could find qualified replacements by the end of summer.

2. Millions of private sector employees across the country have accepted pay cuts and loss of benefits. Why should government be different?

I think an incremental approach is the right way to go. I think my proposal is radical in its incrementalism.

The district is not likely to accept a strike. They think the best interests of the district are served by caving in.

What do you know about NCLB and Lakewood?

Bill Call wrote:I don't think what other districts pay should be relevant in what Lakewood offers. If all of Lakewood's teachers retired tomorrow we could find qualified replacements by the end of summer.

Aw. gee. Why'd you have to go and say that? I was kind of agreeing with you up to then.

But that statement just doesn't square with reality. You can get warm bodies (maybe) but 400 "qualified" teachers? I don't think so.

Remember that experienced teachers tend not to move around as they get vested in one district or another. I can see a teacher desperate for a job landing in Lakewood, then bolting as soon as possible. But we could never lure experienced teachers away.

If you liked the Cleveland Indians in the 70s and 80s, you'll LOVE the Lakewood schools under the system you're proposing.

And remember, the competition is keenest for teachers with special skills, like ESL, special ed, math and science, etc.

There's just no way I want my schools to be the lowest-paying on the block.

As for Lakewood and NCLB, we were tussling with this on another thread. Lakewood is Lakewood. Lakewood's very close, but isn't getting the NCLB cigar right now. Dr. Estrop, IMHO, is reacting to the wrong way. He's campaigning to have the rules changed, which everyone agrees needs to be done, but he's coming at it from the wrong angle.

He seems to want the rules RELAXED in a way that would benefit Lakewood, while others are starting to say the rules should be TOUGHENED to keep districts like River or Bay from being able to sweep their at-risk kids under the rug.

I don't think what other districts pay should be relevant in what Lakewood offers

Its only relevant if we want to compete in the same applicant pool.

As Joan put it

If you liked the Cleveland Indians in the 70s and 80s, you'll LOVE the Lakewood schools under the system you're proposing

In a similar fashion, Lakewood has, for quite some time, served as the triple A franchise for administrators who can't move up in the Lakewood ranks because Omar is at Shortstop (if you excuse the parallel). We've lost some very qualified principals, etc. to other "teams" who had a place for them on the field. You can bet that as soon as that novice teacher, with newly minted certificate in hand, could parlay his/her experience into bigger bucks in "free agency", they'd be gone in a heart beat.

Unless, of course, you can get all the district to agree (which is in violation of Restraint of Trade), but even then, there's always a Steinbreener out there to ruin everything.

Jeff

I'm not at all for a teacher's strike, it hurts the whole community. But there is something to what Mr. Call said if you look at the supply and demand curves.

I was talking to one of Lakewood's brightest and best alums the other day. She was sharing with me the plight of students that have graduated and simply can't get a job as a teacher up north. She graduated with honors from college and was a varsity athlete in college as well. She has her teaching certificates in math - one of the ones that she heard was a needed area.

With Lakewood downsizing, the few teachers that retire each year aren't being replaced or only a few of them are. If you want a job as a teacher here, you need to get in line by working as a sub. She was a great Lakewood student and teachers told her that if they were sick they would ask for her to sub for them. But students have to pay off their student loans so they can't afford to wait and hope they get to sub only a few times a month, which is what she was experiencing. And if you take another job, that employer isn't always willing to cooperate when you want to sub.

I suggested she look in the south were the population was booming, Charlotte, NC was the example we used. Unfortunately teachers there make only a small fraction of what teachers up north make, so it is difficult. Unfortunately after a few years of working outside of teaching, she is resigned to making a career in the business world. She made it sound like her situation was the norm and not an exception at all.

Lynn

Unfortunately teachers there make only a small fraction of what teachers up north make, so it is difficult. Unfortunately after a few years of working outside of teaching, she is resigned to making a career in the business world

Which is exactly the point......rather than moving, taking a small fraction of the pay and doing what she wanted to do and trained to do, she's changing career direction. If you substitute Lakewood for Charlotte, how many new teachers are we apt to attract?

Jeff

Lynn Farris wrote: Unfortunately after a few years of working outside of teaching, she is resigned to making a career in the business world. She made it sound like her situation was the norm and not an exception at all.

I guess my response would be that, if she is indeed one of the best and brightest, she won't be all that "resigned" in a few years, when she's pulling down $60,000 and her teacher friends are making $37,000. While teaching may have been her calling, she will ultimately do better financially in another line of work.

You're a parent like I am. That MA is going to come with a final price tag of what, $75,000? Maybe you're footing the bill, maybe not. But do you want your kid to put six years in school, plus the financial investment (hers or yours), and say, "gee, honey, when you're 40 you can be making 50 grand a year...two thirds of what a Ford assembly line worker makes."?

The trade off with teachers has always been this. You trade a fat W-2 for more security, benefits, time off, and maybe early retirement. Now, I agree about supply and demand, and I agree about not letting the numbers get out of whack. I also know that there should be some commitment to the actual task of teaching, as opposing to just going for the bucks.

But if you start changing the back end of the deal TOO much, you're going to need to make it up in the salary department, or else you're not going to lose teachers to Charlotte or Beachwood, you're going to lose them to MBNA or even Best Buy. The trick is finding that point of equilibrium.