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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:18 pm
by john crino
Jeff Endress wrote:John

On the snob thing.....
any productive business (unless its a check cashing store) beats an empty storefront.

Jeff


I am all for ANY business coming to Lakewood. My point was I wish it was something else with an exclamation point after it not just DOLLAR STORE IS COMING!!.

(Should I have used my fake name for this post?)

Snobbery 2.0

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:50 pm
by Mark Crnolatas
Snobbery is all relative. I once did an investigation for a client, not far from Lkwd. The case was to make sure my client's girlfriend was being faithful to him.

He is a privacy junkie, and an unknown in the "movers and shakers of the U.S.," yet his financial status is somewhere in the top 100 in the country. The movers and shakers in the country know him though. He owns houses, and buildings all over the country, (among other things) and his family originates from around here. He's a self made man. I've seen him a few times since that case, and one of those times, was in the dollar store by K-mart on Lorain/W.150th. He was looking at some baskets.

Maybe to hang some plants in one of his 747's?

It's all relative.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:51 pm
by beladubby
Jeff Endress wrote:John

On the snob thing.....

River (where you just might find a snob or two....or someone who turns up their nose at Lakewood) has a brand spankin' new Dollar Store. Right next to Ford's Clothier and Minotti's. I don't see it as a slap. Would I rather have LL Bean? Sure. But any productive business (unless its a check cashing store) beats an empty storefront.

Jeff


That's funny. I was just saying someone should open a check cashing place on Madison, somewhere between the two dollar stores. Really.

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:21 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
John/bela

Please post using your real name.

You missed your chance there are three already.

One on Detroit on wesy end, one at Marc's Plaza, and on at 13321 Madison if you live in the building.


.

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:06 pm
by Charyn Varkonyi
I dont view a dollar store as a sign of impending economic doom. They are certainly welcome visitors to many communities, both affluent and poor. The issue with a dollar store, Marc's, or any dicount chain is not that theyare selling items at low cost, but whether or not they present themselves as a clean, safe, welcoming environment for shoppers.

For example - there is a Dollar Store that I visit in PA that is very clean, bright, well organized, etc. I have no feeling that it is in a poor community or that it is attracting hoodlums and vagrants, ir pushing property values down.

On the other hand I visit Marc's - right smack in the middle of our 'downtwon' and the parking lot is full of trash, the store is cramped and filthy, etc. I have a general feeling of malaise as a result.

I take ten of the Dollar stores with responsible owners and pride of community over a single poorly run Marc's any day.

JMHO.

Peace,
~Charyn

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:27 pm
by Kenneth Warren
John:

If you lived in New York, you would probably remember that Leona Helmsley went to jail because she failed to revere the little people.

Snobs pay a karmic price for the view from the top.

The Master said, “The city on a hill cannot be hid.â€Â￾

Hence there are psychological, sociological and spiritual perspectives attendant to the Dollar Tree growing at the edge of Emerald Canyon. As seekers of economic development for our city, we will always be vulnerable, anxious and easily tormented.

In consumer culture everybody is invited to hang out our character flaws and consume new trappings for our rich and inflated egos. We go snob by way of the one-up/one down marketing and positioning of messages, objects and signs in the shopping experience.

In consumer culture the increasingly refined semiotic articulation of the goods rather than the Good makes us feel arrogant and haughty. Snobs.

But snobs invite trouble. Our egos are easily pricked. We become captives to our self-conscious dislocation.

Hence the chaos of Marcs speaks materially not only to the primordial chaos we fear in the increasingly inflated state of our consuming ego. The chaos of Marcs also speaks to the expanding materials interests of the property owner, that is, to the capitalist will to grow richer by constructing more inflated trappings for egos in other places such as Westlake.

So you are on the money with the Snob bit. The inflation and expansion of the ego are at stake in the subtext of economic development outcomes.

Hence the Dollar Tree provides, happily for me, a metaphorical start in conversation to liberate ourselves and the community spirit from the material attachments that encode the class hierarchy.

There is opportunity to deflate the ego and recalibrate our attachment to things that matter, and to love our neighbors, even as we battle the chaos of Marcs.

In short, we can actualize what we need to actualize inside and outside the Dollar Tree.

Kenneth Warren

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:31 pm
by dl meckes
Kenneth Warren wrote:...Hence the chaos of Marcs speaks materially not only to the primordial chaos we fear in the increasingly inflated state of our consuming ego. The chaos of Marcs also speaks to the expanding materials interests of the property owner, that is, to the capitalist will to grow richer by constructing more inflated trappings for egos in other places such as Westlake...

Kenneth Warren

Mighty nice metaphor.

However, Marc's is literally dirty and disorganized. A potential fire hazard. Escape could be impossible.

But disorganized messes are symbolic of our lives - too many stimuli and little chance to really focus. How do we find our way out?

None but the most powerful hunter gatherers can recognize the prizes and bring them home, flush with victory.

Many let others determine that which holds value.

The true hunter gatherers define value through their own filters, evaluating hundreds of bits of information as they press forward. :wink:

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:59 pm
by john crino
One last time.
Welcome Dollar Store! Welcome to Lakewood!
I shop at the Dollar store on Madison. It's a practical place. It's clean. etc.
I welcome any new business to the city.
I think most on this board know my point I was making about the "excitement" around the coming of the Dollar Tree and it has nothing to do with snobbery.
Sorry I brought up that word.
Go Lakewood!

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:52 am
by Jim Dustin
The “discounterâ€Â￾ stores like most national chains, conduct demographic research on the per capita incomes for a radius to the proposed store. That is factored against the relative expense of the store operation, taxes, lease, infrastructure, distribution routes and accessibility (ingress/egress). This research is often ongoing as a store clerk may ask for your zip code at checkout for instance.

I believe these kinds of stores serve several types of buyers including destination shopping, i.e. someone needing a bunch of inexpensive frames for certificates, or containers, or whatever specific item ahead of time. In that type of case, where the buyer has easy mobility by car, it sounds like Marcs could have competition.

In my opinion, the most important thing for a new retail business, is to present itself professionally (neat, clean). From a City perspective, there are only a few ways to enforce presentation. On the exterior is architectural unity (new buildings) and signage codes. On the interior it’s primarily health (food handling, sanitation) and safety (fire hazards, building structure).

Signage is a big deal. The nature of branding can telegraph a look and feel for the store and also either support or repel the sensibilities of the prospective customer. Look at McDonalds or Walgreens. They manage (for the most part) to create a unified look that supports a demographic ranging from low to high-income customers. Other retail outlets that are not as disciplined suffer on the higher end of income because the perception (or reality) of cleanliness and presentation is lacking.

It could at some level be related to snobbery, but I believe it is a far less conscious experience. I remember a wonderful exercise in Communication Arts (a trade magazine for graphic design) in the eighties. A photographer went to the seedier side of a major city and shot the exteriors of the likes of exotic dancer bars, pawn shops and check cashing joints. Then through photo composition (this was before Photoshop), created tasteful signage and architecturally unified presentations in the same space (imagine the words “nude dancersâ€Â￾ in crisp black Helvetica staged on generous white space – and yes, in lower case type). It was both hilarious and very telling. The result actually changed the perception of what kind of management to expect and experience to have – even of the more prurient type of establishment.

So, I hope that Lakewood ordinances have strong graphical standards for signage. A bright fluorescent pink Dollar sign down on Sloane would not exactly tell the right story. But if they do it tastefully, it should draw customers from all income brackets and thrive very nicely. As for litter, it’s a terrible nuisance when the owner doesn’t police their own property. It might be an interesting ordinance to create for the betterment of the city though. And for those areas not on private property, utilize the community service of people who have gotten in trouble with the law to go around and pick up trash on a regular basis. In Florida, we still have work gangs on the highways cleaning up trash- and it always warms my heart to see them contributing and giving something back ;)

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:54 am
by Bryan Schwegler
My only issue is that I think there needs to be a better mix of high-end and low-end retail in Lakewood. Yes, it's great we're getting another business in Lakewood but honestly I would prefer something a little nicer.

You can play it off as snobbery if you like or elitism or call it whatever you want but I also like to shop at some of the Crocker Park stores or out in Avon or Beachwood.

Cigarette Marts, Dollar Stores, and Check Cashing places will not revive Lakewood. There needs to be a healthy mix of retail which unfortunately doesn't exist right now. In the end we can all cheer the Dollar Store and pretend Lakewood is reviving but I can promise that low-end retail will not save Lakewood. It is not the economic stimulus that will bring us back to solid fiscal ground.

Snobbery has nothing to do with this. If Lakewood does not attract retail or amenities that would cater to upper middle class or upper class people and continues to increase the draw of retail targeted at lower income people we will end up with a huge problem in the long run.

Like it or not, there needs to be some kind of rational balance.

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:13 am
by Joan Roberts
I think we may be mixing up the concepts of Family Dollar/Dollar General stores with the single-price "dollar stores" like Deals$ and the Dollar Tree.
The former really are low-end discounters targeting a working-class clientele,Marc's with less ambience.
As Mr. Warren has mentioned, Dollar Tree-type stores are popping up in neighborhoods and shopping areas of all types. Their positioning is as much fun as it is value.
I was in Cuyahoga Falls last week, and there is a Deal$ in the same plaza as a Bed, Bath, and Beyond, Home Depot, and Borders. The Dollar Tree in
River is next to a mens store that sells $600 suits.
At the risk of sounding like a snob myself, a Dollar General store, based on the research they do for site selection, isn't an indication of an affluent, upwardly-mobile (for whatever that's worth) neighborhood. The one-price dollar stores are a totally different animal.

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:30 pm
by Jeff Endress
Just for the record.....

I don't think anybody "complained" when Downtown Lakewood had a Niesner's five and dime...

Jeff

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:25 pm
by Stephen Calhoun
My goodness.

In the end we can all cheer the Dollar Store and pretend Lakewood is reviving but I can promise that low-end retail will not save Lakewood. It is not the economic stimulus that will bring us back to solid fiscal ground.

Snobbery has nothing to do with this. If Lakewood does not attract retail or amenities that would cater to upper middle class or upper class people and continues to increase the draw of retail targeted at lower income people we will end up with a huge problem in the long run.

Like it or not, there needs to be some kind of rational balance.


There are many buried assumptions here, and, implicitly, there is also a 'chicken-and-egg' type of problem contained in this riff.

One daring way to unpack economic development is to come at it sideways and, in effect, come at it not as if what are, at the end of the day, merely 'economic persons' entangled in the flux of provision and consumption.

If this sociological approach is necessarily a bit oblique, it also gently gathers in data and analysis about how easily it is made possible in a wholly economic analysis to bi-furcate Lakewood into persons who go after life, in a sense, sub-optimally, and, other persons who fall into the lumpen optimal "upper middle class or upper class people".

Of course the obvious assumption hidden in this last prescription is that there is, then, a hypotheses chaining together simple posits,

richer is better than poorer
upper is better than lower
revival is best when it is oriented around richer, and upper

Methinks this implies also: prune some of the lemons rather than make lemonade with the lemons you have.

Hmmmm... Do we throw out the lemons that got Lakewood here?

***

This leads to incredibly tough questions the monkey has been posing to himself.

North/South divide in Lakewood?

Much day in and day out melting of classes in Lakewood? Where?

Quantification of how income is spent qualified by class and/or cluster?

But then what about deeper ways of knowing what else is part of the proposition of a Dollar this or that? People are not their purchases.

***

Fantasy of Lakewood evolving to become more like culturally creative, leftist, third place, intellectual, cognitively complex, hip, green, activist,

[fill in blank of known exemplar suburb] ________________________ ?

(Did I FORGET to mention diverse too?

***

In some ways its a zero-sum game. there's the taint (in my digger pluralistic radical headspace,) in some kinds of class-focused biases which elevate what used to be called, 'gentrification'.

Personally, I don't see it unfolding. People who intergenerationally 'get' Lakewood, who closely identify with the knotty and rough and tumble (but safe!) ambience, emerge out of a different affectual ecology than those for whom Lakewood is merely the place in which they live and the location that serves as the current 'table' to catch only their most current bet on a little more stability, security, ands future predictability.

This, alas, is the rad sociologists perspective. But, Lakewood also is the bundle of different dreams about the future. It's different between: knowing what all the dreams are, and, what the elite dreams are; i.e. dreams of the elite be they discerned as matters of social class or richness (or 'thickness') of identity.

(...thinking here too that identity forms a kind of odd 'transference' and that the various mirages form a kind of counter-transference.)

***

More simply, (phew!) maybe the platform for stability is every and any kind of smart match between socios and 'economos' which creates a little less anxiety, per force stabilizes, and, embraces the lower and lower middle classes rather than supposes something like a bus ticket would be, for Lakewood, part of the solution.

Never-the-less, the peeps with the gold do like to rule. The point of the city that knows itself better than any other is to invert this; the gold within the people rule.

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:43 pm
by Mike Deneen
If this store is half as popular as its discussion thread, it will be a major moneymaker for many years to come.

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:41 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Stephen Calhoun wrote:
North/South divide in Lakewood?




Stephen

As I Lakewoodite with much history I would love to give you a brief rundown to the changing borders within borders.

In the 50s, 60s and 70s it was very much divided into three. North of the tracks, South of the tracks and Birdtown. This was the very easy to see defining borders that played with the psyche of all Lakewoodites. How does one get to the other side of the tracks. in the 80s we started to see East/West borders pop up. East of Newman, Now East of Waterbury, No east of Lewis, no East of Parkwood, No east of Bunts, etc. I always noticed the eco-border was always one or two streets east of where the person describing it lived.

Today it is easy. The line that divides Lake Road has become the "Williams Sonoma Line" much like the Mason Dixon Line. Of course even this very thin area North of the Williams Sonoma Line is subdivided. Last summer I was laughing with a friend that had moved to the promise land of no sidewalks, Edgewater Dr. after decades of working to make it he had. Delivering the goods to his family. Finally his children would be secure in knowing Dad was the great provider. Only to hear a neighbor mention he was on the wrong side of Edgewater!!!!!!!!!!!!