LHS Among Best Schools in Nation!

[Jim O'Bryan]

Also, can the sarcasm, it doesn't contribute anything at all and again, you're not really in a position to assess what I did or didn't get out of high school, are you?

Thealexa

Well actually I am. I knew you in High School, and remember very well the day you were
accepted to college.

I never heard you mention a junior college, or other prep school. So I have to figure that
LHS at least helped you to that level, or you wouldn't have been there.

I always see these things as a two way street. I have watched many a person pound a
crew in with a hammer, never reaching for the screw driver. Is it the screw driver's fault
the carpenter didn't gt the most out of his tools?

You comment that LHS did nothing, was pure hyperbole, and struck me as very short
sighted and perhaps a little bitter.

.

[Thealexa Becker]

Also, can the sarcasm, it doesn't contribute anything at all and again, you're not really in a position to assess what I did or didn't get out of high school, are you?

Thealexa

Well actually I am. I knew you in High School, and remember very well the day you were
accepted to college.

I never heard you mention a junior college, or other prep school. So I have to figure that
LHS at least helped you to that level, or you wouldn't have been there.

I always see these things as a two way street. I have watched many a person pound a
crew in with a hammer, never reaching for the screw driver. Is it the screw driver's fault
the carpenter didn't gt the most out of his tools?

You comment that LHS did nothing, was pure hyperbole, and struck me as very short
sighted and perhaps a little bitter.

.

Jim,

Yet again, another response that is more of a personal commentary on me. I'm going to end this now by saying you sort of knew me in high school, about as well as any other person I interacted occasionally with, which isn't well. And if you DID know me SO well, then you wouldn't me arguing with me about what I got out of high school. But since you are completely missing my point, I can only assume you are just making sweeping generalizations in order to derail my point and stem criticism of the infallible school system.

Gary,

The quality of LHS education is good, great if you want to go on to Ohio schools or professional programs. But, again, you didn't really address LHS in a national context and since this was a "national" ranking, I think it is only fair to look at that. LHS could use improvement in preparation for plain old colleges nationwide. And it isn't just LHS, lots of other schools really could as well.

However, it seems as though the only argument against my point is that "you get out of it what you put into it". The issue with that argument is that it completely removes responsibility for improvement from the school system and places all the responsibility on the customer (the student, in this case me).

So, I reiterate, if you were really and truly interested in improving, you would stop these attempts to blame me for why I think LHS could improve and listen to why I am saying it. It's honestly getting quite frustrating to try and have a conversation with anyone on here when all I get back is that there has to be something wrong with me. That's not a stellar debate tactic and just highlights how unwilling to have a productive conversation most of you are.

[Gary Rice]

So that we're clear on this, I made no remarks directly concerning anyone.

My remarks were intended as general observations.

I do feel emphatically that the greater responsibility, in fact, a huge responsibility for education, rests directly with the student. Generally speaking, I've seen far too many students make far too many excuses for their own personal shortcomings in pursuing their educational experiences.

That said, there are of course, many other factors that comprise a high school experience: Teachers, texts, resources, peer pressure, home and environmental factors, class size, etc... all of which may either adversely or positively contribute to educational outcomes.

As has been pointed out, schools need to always strive for improvements, and there are almost always some waiting to be found.

Still, bottom line, it will be the student who will either rise to the challenges of the educational environment, or not.

I would suggest this- right here and now:

If anyone would care to offer any specific concrete observations as to what, exactly, our schools could be doing to improve, then let that be said here.

The national evidence offered thus far seems to be that we're doing pretty well.

[Thealexa Becker]

So that we're clear on this, I made no remarks directly concerning anyone.

My remarks were intended as general observations.

I do feel emphatically that the greater responsibility, in fact, a huge responsibility for education, rests directly with the student. Generally speaking, I've seen far too many students make far too many excuses for their own personal shortcomings in pursuing their educational experiences.

That said, there are of course, many other factors that comprise a high school experience: Teachers, texts, resources, peer pressure, home and environmental factors, class size, etc... all of which may either adversely or positively contribute to educational outcomes.

As has been pointed out, schools need to always strive for improvements, and there are almost always some waiting to be found.

Still, bottom line, it will be the student who will either rise to the challenges of the educational environment, or not.

I would suggest this- right here and now:

If anyone would care to offer any specific concrete observations as to what, exactly, our schools could be doing to improve, then let that be said here.

The national evidence offered thus far seems to be that we're doing pretty well.

Gary,

We are not talking about the same type of student. I am talking about students who likely excel in school and are not being challenged enough by the school system or supported in the application process for colleges, especially those out of state or ones that are more competitive. You are talking about slackers. Maybe that is where some of the dissonance in this discussion is coming from.

But to give you examples of things that could have been better when I was a senior:

Why are there so few staff at LHS who work with students on college application processes? In my senior year there were many complaints that students did not have access to the necessary faculty because there were too few of them.

Why are there not more AP class offerings? In my junior year they cut AP French. No idea if they brought it back, but many were against the cut.

Why is there not more outreach to a wider variety of colleges? It seemed to me that most of the recruiting we had easy access to was for Ohio schools, which does not accommodate the students who wish to go to school not in Ohio.

I know for a fact that the school I attended was trying hard to recruit at LHS and did not really ever hear back, likely because of the too few staff issue.

Why is there not a standardized test prep course offered? I know they had it my junior year, but I heard they were cutting it, I hope they didn't.

Why is the scheduling of high school classes such that it is difficult to take as many subjects as some students would like? I remember it was always a struggle for me to cut my lunch period to take extra classes.

Why are students not encouraged to go to CSU or Case to take classes if they go beyond what LHS offers? I know of only one student who did this, when honestly, there were more in my class would could have and should have done this also.

These are just a few of the things I've taken issue with. Notice I am not singling out a specific individual, these are institutional issues. However, I concede that if you are happy with LHS nurturing students for state schools and pre-professional programs, half of these probably aren't super relevant. But again, that goes back to what is your goal for the high school and that is a matter of personal philosophy.

[Bill Call]

But what I am continually baffled by is why no one on this Deck likes hearing legitimate criticism. I didn't say LHS was a bad school, I said it needs work, and yet all anyone hears is that I criticized the school system. It's not like I slapped the Pope people.

By asking for improvement your are implying that Lakewood Schools are not perfect. The general attitude (unspoken) is that we need to keep on doing what we are doing but spend more money doing it.

The most recent levy was passed with a large margin based in part on the belief that the money would be used for "programs". The reality is that the five year forecast anticipates a $6 million per year increase in wages and benefits. That's $18 million more in a three year period for wages and benefits compared to the previous three year period. How would you spend the money?

P.S. I'm still a little peeved that $6 million of the money raised in the previous levy was used for retirement bonuses. None of the levy literature mentioned that just as none of the levy literature supporting the most recent levy mentions $18 million in increases in wages and benefits.

There are at least to problems with spending that kind of money in that manner:

1. It does nothing to enhance education.
2. Since most school board employees live outside the district those dollars undermine the economic health of the City of Lakewood.

[Matthew Lee]

I know for a fact that the school I attended was trying hard to recruit at LHS and did not really ever hear back, likely because of the too few staff issue.

Now I'm really confused. Earlier, you said it was the opinion of the East Coast is that Ohio schools are awful. But now you say that the school you went to tried hard to recruit at LHS?

Why would they recruit hard at LHS if Ohio education is so awful?

Or is it just more hyperbole that the East Coast really doesn't think Ohio education is awful?

It can't be both.

[Thealexa Becker]

I know for a fact that the school I attended was trying hard to recruit at LHS and did not really ever hear back, likely because of the too few staff issue.

Now I'm really confused. Earlier, you said it was the opinion of the East Coast is that Ohio schools are awful. But now you say that the school you went to tried hard to recruit at LHS?

Why would they recruit hard at LHS if Ohio education is so awful?

Or is it just more hyperbole that the East Coast really doesn't think Ohio education is awful?

It can't be both.

You are trying really hard to ignore the point aren't you?

Here's a breakdown:

1) Everyone on the east coast did not go to my alma mater. Many of the comments I was referring to did not come from people at my alma mater, although some did.
2) My alma mater has an alum club in Cleveland.
3) That alum club tries to recruit at my school and is disappointed more people don't apply because they want to send more people from Cleveland to prove Cleveland doesn't stink.
4) LHS could use work on college prep and making more students competitive nationally

Clear enough?

Although, I wonder if you really have anything to add to the actual discussion at hand (improving the college prep for LHS) since you haven't said anything except a variant of "nuh uh! you're wrong!".

[Grace O'Malley]

That alum club tries to recruit at my school and is disappointed more people don't apply because they want to send more people from Cleveland to prove Cleveland doesn't stink.

Instead of proving that Cleveland stinks, perhaps the low interest in the college is that it is for women only. You've already excluded half the student bodies, I mean body.

[Thealexa Becker]

That alum club tries to recruit at my school and is disappointed more people don't apply because they want to send more people from Cleveland to prove Cleveland doesn't stink.

Instead of proving that Cleveland stinks, perhaps the low interest in the college is that it is for women only. You've already excluded half the student bodies, I mean body.

To be honest, I wouldn't know anything about my school recruiting at LHS since I didn't learn about them through LHS (I really only know what alum have told me). In fact, most places I applied I didn't learn about through LHS.

Unfortunately, your point once again is not really relevant to the discussion at hand. My alma mater is an isolated example that I was using to clarify a minutia point for Matthew.

Moving on:

Does anyone on this thread want to address anything I have brought up in my previous response to Gary?

My guess would be no...

[Matthew Lee]

Does anyone on this thread want to address anything I have brought up in my previous response to Gary?

My guess would be no...

Nice guess. I love your confidence, but you would be wrong.

Why are there so few staff at LHS who work with students on college application processes? In my senior year there were many complaints that students did not have access to the necessary faculty because there were too few of them.

Is five full time staff really that few? Please tell us how many there should be:

http://lakewoodcityschools.org/content_ ... =1&cid=534

Why are there not more AP class offerings? In my junior year they cut AP French. No idea if they brought it back, but many were against the cut.

Again, what is the appropriate number? Unfortunately, AP French is still not offered but there are a number of courses still offered and, based on my East Coast (Massachusetts) high school, this is more than I had at my high school, including U.S. History AP in 9th grade, which is super early compared to other high schools:

http://www.lakewoodcityschools.org/docs ... 2013-1.pdf

Course Grade
Art History – Advanced Placement 11-12
Calculus (AB) – Advanced Placement 11-12
Calculus (BC) – Advanced Placement 12
Chemistry – Advanced Placement 10-12
English Language & Composition 11
English Lit&Comp – Advanced Placement 12
European History – Advanced Placement 11-12
Music Theory – Advanced Placement 10-12
Physics – Advanced Placement 11-12
Spanish Language – Advanced Placement 12
Statistics – Advanced Placement 10-12
U.S. Gov.&Politics – Advanced Placement 12
U.S. History – Advanced Placement 9&10

Why is there not more outreach to a wider variety of colleges? It seemed to me that most of the recruiting we had easy access to was for Ohio schools, which does not accommodate the students who wish to go to school not in Ohio.

Have you seen the list of colleges that were here in the past year? You can click on the links on the left hand side of this link and you will find that many are not in Ohio.

Colgate was here this year. So was Hofstra. Could it be better? Yes, I think it could. Is there easier access to Ohio schools? Of course. Just like going to high school in Illinois gives easier access to Illinois schools. And going to high school in California gives easier access to California schools.

I know for a fact that the school I attended was trying hard to recruit at LHS and did not really ever hear back, likely because of the too few staff issue.

Have you raised this to the school district? I imagine you went to a good school and would think LHS would want them to recruit there if possible. I have no answer for this one.

Why is there not a standardized test prep course offered? I know they had it my junior year, but I heard they were cutting it, I hope they didn't.

There still is a standardizes test prep course offered, to the best of my knowledge. I could be wrong, though.

Why is the scheduling of high school classes such that it is difficult to take as many subjects as some students would like? I remember it was always a struggle for me to cut my lunch period to take extra classes.

This isn't just LHS. This is every high school, unfortunately. I agree with you on this one. I wish there was a way to take more subjects in the time allocated.

Why are students not encouraged to go to CSU or Case to take classes if they go beyond what LHS offers? I know of only one student who did this, when honestly, there were more in my class would could have and should have done this also.

I'm sure you have been following the University of Akron and LHS partnership. Basically, what you want above is already taking place with some courses between U of A and LHS.

Thealexa, don't get me wrong. There are many things I would like to change about LHS as well. I don't think they are perfect by any stretch of imagination. But, and I say this with the knowledge of knowing many school districts in Illinois, Massachusetts, California, New York and Pennsylvania, LHS does a very good job given the demographics of the city and the funds given to it.

[Gary Rice]

I always enjoy reading well-considered constructive discussions about education, particularly as they might apply to specific areas where the Lakewood Schools could do better.

I do appreciate this particular discussion. Point-counter-point regarding specifics can sometimes provide new ideas regarding future directionality for our schools.

Of course, the principal concern always comes down to money.

There's just not been enough money available to do everything that needs done.

In Cuyahoga County, Lakewood probably sits (financially) about in the middle of the pack, and overall school performance so often unfortunately seems to directly correlate to what a community is willing (or able) to shell out for their schools, along with, of course, how much a community, (including the parents) would be willing to support their schools in other ways.

It's no secret, particularly here in Ohio, but in other states as well, that public school funding has been a volatile issue for many years. Courts have determined Ohio's public school funding situation to have been unconstitutional several times. There are other factors in play, as well. There is a huge and well-funded political bloc that would like to privatize public education. There are others who honestly view public education with suspicion for philosophical or other reasons. Then you have the impact of Federal mandates, (often under-funded) testing controversies, textbook updating...the list goes on and on- with many dynamics that are in one way or another affecting the public education debate.

Then you have the current strong push for national standards that is often resisted by an ever-present desire for local or state controls.

With respect to employee salaries and benefits, those two areas are indeed oftentimes the biggest part of a school district's budget, and that's why they come under review every time a new contract comes along. Some have argued that if only unions and benefit packages would just go away, then there would be more money available for programs. The trouble with that sort of thinking would be that in the real world, salaries and benefits in Ohio are highly competitive and do vary considerably from district to district; so attracting the best teachers every year requires that a district's salary and benefit package be somewhat competitive with other nearby districts in the area.

To those who argue for greater privatization of the public schools, I can only ask why anyone would think that a profit-based enterprise would be cheaper than a non-profit operation? The private advocates would argue that they would pay the staff less, but where that argument falls apart would be with the hiring of top-quality staff who would otherwise be seeking greener pastures elsewhere.

Where a public school teacher happens to live, by the way, cannot even enter into the equation, because like any other person, they are free to live anywhere they choose to.

I believe that Lakewood High School and our district has done an excellent job with the resources that they have available, while at the same time, juggling all of the above dynamics;

...and the favorable recognition that was presented in the initial posting to this thread clearly bears this out.

Back to the banjo...

[Colleen Wing]

I already PM'd Thealexa about the well thought out nature and articulate commentary on ths issue, the issue being the"Silver" rating...which went from gee, it is nice to be noticed, to...see I told you we are awesome and everything is great, now if we could only get a little more money blah, blah, bill call is a hater, blah, blah. I also advised her that the schools in Lakewood are another of the sacred cows that it is a losing battle to mention your personal experience which may differ from those of others...God forbid.

This ranking is the equivalent of my mom's "#1 Mom" coffee mug. Although I feel my mom is #1 she may rank #1200 nationally...it only gets silly when my mom puts it on her resume.

[J Hrlec]

I already PM'd Thealexa about the well thought out nature and articulate commentary on ths issue, the issue being the"Silver" rating...which went from gee, it is nice to be noticed, to...see I told you we are awesome and everything is great, now if we could only get a little more money blah, blah, bill call is a hater, blah, blah. I also advised her that the schools in Lakewood are another of the sacred cows that it is a losing battle to mention your personal experience which may differ from those of others...God forbid.

This ranking is the equivalent of my mom's "#1 Mom" coffee mug. Although I feel my mom is #1 she may rank #1200 nationally...it only gets silly when my mom puts it on her resume.

/thumbsup

[Thealexa Becker]

Does anyone on this thread want to address anything I have brought up in my previous response to Gary?

My guess would be no...

Nice guess. I love your confidence, but you would be wrong.

Took you long enough. Guess you ran out of minutia.

Is five full time staff really that few? Please tell us how many there should be:

http://lakewoodcityschools.org/content_ ... =1&cid=534

Yes, that is too few given that you have over 400 graduates. That was the same number as when I was there and there is not the availability present that many of us would have liked. I do not blame the staff, but there should be tracking of students on the college track and there should be more staff.

Again, what is the appropriate number? Unfortunately, AP French is still not offered but there are a number of courses still offered and, based on my East Coast (Massachusetts) high school, this is more than I had at my high school, including U.S. History AP in 9th grade, which is super early compared to other high schools:

http://www.lakewoodcityschools.org/docs ... 2013-1.pdf

I took many of these, but I couldn't take some of them because the scheduling wouldn't allow it, which is another problem. Also, Calc AB/BC counts as only one since it's the same class at different levels and the two English classes only take one AP exam, not two, so it's technically one class. French should be back and there is a Latin exam. There are also multiple physics exams that could be offered, we only offer one. And AP Bio should be a standard. And while it was a good class, I don't know why US History is two years, we could do World History in that extra year, we have good enough history teachers.

Why not offer Economics? Psychology? Comp Sci? German? Comparative Gov?

There are all great subjects to have exposure to. There was really no reason that I had my first real exposure to Econ in college and not in high school. Same for psych. You'd put students at least a semester ahead in any college.

Have you seen the list of colleges that were here in the past year? You can click on the links on the left hand side of this link and you will find that many are not in Ohio.

Colgate was here this year. So was Hofstra. Could it be better? Yes, I think it could. Is there easier access to Ohio schools? Of course. Just like going to high school in Illinois gives easier access to Illinois schools. And going to high school in California gives easier access to California schools.

I don't see a link so I guess I will have to go on your word. But the fact that you claim some of these places are "too far" is just an excuse. Those schools have tons of money in recruiting budgets and they have people all over.

Have you raised this to the school district? I imagine you went to a good school and would think LHS would want them to recruit there if possible. I have no answer for this one.

There is not answer because, again, the reason there is lower recruiting is that LHS has too few resources to devote to national recruiting, which I would think is important for a "nationally ranked" school.

But you know, my school does (or did not sure if they still do) give out a book award to an LHS junior.

There still is a standardizes test prep course offered, to the best of my knowledge. I could be wrong, though.

Do you know for sure? Because we had to fight to get it offered my junior year.

This isn't just LHS. This is every high school, unfortunately. I agree with you on this one. I wish there was a way to take more subjects in the time allocated.

There IS a way, and it entails them being less rigid about students deleting lunch period from their schedule and being more cognizant of placing AP classes.

I'm sure you have been following the University of Akron and LHS partnership. Basically, what you want above is already taking place with some courses between U of A and LHS.

To my knowledge this was just for Spanish. I mean for ANYTHING. And why do we have to partner with U of A when CSU has been here for years. Why is there not a program in place that makes it simple for any student who has advanced beyond what LHS can offer to just enroll at CSU with little hassle? Or U of A?

I'm sure some kind of partnership where students could do an entire year at CSU would decrease the cost of college for lots of students and reduce their loan weight. But I guess college loan debt isn't LHS' problem...

But to your final point, I don't think LHS does a "very good job". I think they do an "ok" job. They can do much better.

For instance, one of my best friends, who is in my class year, got literally NO help from LHS when applying for college. I, another high school senior, had to help her put together her applications for college. Even worse, she wanted to apply to a prestigious out of state school and was told, for no reason and by someone on the staff who knew nothing about her record, that she shouldn't do it because she wouldn't get in. I would bet money she would have. But they just told her to look at Ohio schools because that is all they thought she was good enough for.

She was a first generation college student, and she had not idea how to do 1) FAFSA 2) get rec letters 3) fill out application paperwork 4) choose between acceptance offers. Had she gotten the advising and support you claim is so amazing at LHS, she would not have been in the position she was. If there were an early college start at say, CSU, I bet she would have jumped on that and shaved a year off of tuition and saved lots of time. I hardly call that great college prep.

Should that happen at a "top high school"? I would think not. So now maybe, you understand why I am making these suggestions and asking these questions.