The Observation Deck

Jim,

You have your concerns, I have mine.

You have commented on mine (see above) as I have commented on yours in the past.

As for good causes, I've served a few in my day.

Make that more than a few...

...and I see no need to enumerate them here. Those who know, know.

You've just composed quite an essay addressing me here. I'll have to reflect on that. I'm sure that others reading this will, as well.

OK, I've reflected.

Can a thread really be "hijacked" in free and open community discourse? Then I would wonder just how much discourse here is really "free"? Either you want postings here or not. There's no control who posts what or when. I've tried to help keep the conversation going on here on the 'Deck for quite awhile.

Maybe I should call you first for your approval before I post anything more?

I feel really badly if anything that I may have posted was personally upsetting to you in the past. At the same time, please know that I've not been exactly delighted with some of your postings either.

Look,I know that friends need to support friends whenever they can. Maybe I should have weighed in with more support on more of the issues that concerned you. I tend to pick my battles carefully, as I just do not have the energy to fight everything that everyone fights. When you get older, you young whippersnapper, you will understand.

At the same time, I've been out on a few limbs on my own a few times here. The rest of this conversation would probably best be handled privately.

Take care of yourself, Jim.

Back to the banjo in spite of it all...

p.s.- back to the thread. I like Jim....but I also like dollar-type stores.

Just one more note though...sometimes a concern that begins as personal in truth, affects hundreds of people. The garbage issue resulted in recognition that people having special needs would be taken care of, so that was one good outcome. As well, my column in the Observer this week calls for greater community involvement in the welcoming and services arena. This community is only better for "me" when it is better for "we".

Gary Rice wrote:Jim,

You have your concerns, I have mine.

You have commented on mine (see above) as I have commented on yours in the past.

Gary

But I have never said your worry is foolish or a waste of time.

I have never tried to talk you our of voicing your concerns or thoughts.

I have not come in and said, Gary, you know, you better just cheer up
there little buckaroo and shut up.



I think that is what takes me back more than you liking Dollar Stores over
classic Victorian Homes and the people that lived in them and invested their live
in this fabulous city. But hey that is just me.

Dollar stores?

Well then Gary you should be really happy.

The City has taken all the money saved from curbside trash collection (not for another 4 years), and our tax dollars and CBG funding and invested the millions in more of them!

Me? I prefer people.

peace


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Jim,

This whole line of discussion has come as quite a shock to me, particularly in a public forum like this one.

This would have been much better handled privately, this I do believe.

I am not sure by what stretch of imagination I am supposed to have done ANY of the above stuff. and I certainly do not prefer dollar-type stores over homes. At the same time, I've not looked into some of the same issues that you have, so I will defer to your observations on any specifics here.

I have certainly wondered with you privately about some of these, and other topics, and how they might best be handled online. I have been concerned with some of the negative tone taken by some on the 'Deck, as well.

Right now, I am just concerned, period.

You claim to prefer people...and peace? Fine, but on whose terms, peace?

And which people?

I sincerely prefer peace, and you certainly know that I do. I think that you know that my public response to you will be measured here as well. I told you long ago that I enjoyed bringing a bit of moderation to the 'Deck, but at the same time, I have opinions to express too. Whether I happen to like dollar-type stores carries with it no hidden agenda, no disdain for housing, no ulterior motives.

What I do not appreciate is being called out here.

If I've ever privately suggested to you that a particular topic might have been better handled differently, it was because I felt that such a course would have been in your best interests, or in the best interests of the Observer Project.

If you have any further remarks of a personal nature to make concerning me, please contact me directly, rather than on this forum.

GR

Gary Rice wrote:Jim,

This whole line of discussion has come as quite a shock to me, particularly in a public forum like this one.

This would have been much better handled privately, this I do believe.

I am not sure by what stretch of imagination I am supposed to have done ANY of the above stuff. and I certainly do not prefer dollar-type stores over homes. At the same time, I've not looked into some of the same issues that you have, so I will defer to your observations on any specifics here.

I have certainly wondered with you privately about some of these, and other topics, and how they might best be handled online. I have been concerned with some of the negative tone taken by some on the 'Deck, as well.

Right now, I am just concerned, period.

You claim to prefer people...and peace? Fine, but on whose terms, peace?

And which people?

I sincerely prefer peace, and you certainly know that I do. I think that you know that my public response to you will be measured here as well. I told you long ago that I enjoyed bringing a bit of moderation to the 'Deck, but at the same time, I have opinions to express too. Whether I happen to like dollar-type stores carries with it no hidden agenda, no disdain for housing, no ulterior motives.

What I do not appreciate is being called out here.

If I've ever privately suggested to you that a particular topic might have been better handled differently, it was because I felt that such a course would have been in your best interests, or in the best interests of the Observer Project.

If you have any further remarks of a personal nature to make concerning me, please contact me directly, rather than on this forum.

GR

Gary

You are the one that walked down the personal path.

This often happens in online and real discussions.

I post about Lorain working to stop, what they and many cities correctly understand as a
sign of failure, dollars stores in Downtown, and or too many. A sure sign of a failing area
in a failing economy. Go back into the archives and check Kenneth Warren's discussion on
dollar stores when Lakewood got their first two. In it Ken discusses the various dollar
stores and according to their annual reports and investment strategies discuss who they
are aiming their retail outlet at. It also speaks briefly on how other businesses use them
and other thing as a sign of the financial health of a community.

Into that discussion was "I wouldn't worry about it Jimmy...

I mean, the way things are, and all...."

Gary, I point out that the Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on wayfinding was being
wasted as they couldn't even keep the sign straight. I get a "Jimmy I wouldn't worry..."
I point out that the parks are being closed based on a lie, and not just a lie but laziness and
by council people that should be highlighted as negligent and non-caring. Even when it is
pointed out that the lie is surrounded by Hundreds of thousands of missing dollars and time
City Hall could care about that Half a million. "I wouldn't worry about it Jimmy..."

I point out that a small group have hijacked the city, with high school peer pressure, and
a planned that was ill-concieved the first time, but now it is driven by vendetta, not common
sense, not what is good for the community but simply, "How dare they stop us..." and I am
told, "I wouldn't worry about it Jimmy..."

Betsy, goes to a complete fraud of a committee asking what is best for children, the schools,
and the community. Over the course of the year, SAFTEY matters, only to have that
thrown out when it underlines saving Grant. COST is what matters, only to have that
thrown out when Grant comes up $12 million cheaper, LOCATION matters, when a mother
of two points out that location points to a central school, LOCATION does not matter...
And I read, "Betsy, I wouldn't worry..."

Now we have committed Over $100 million to our "Downtown District" and for this money
we are promised a new center that will be the gateway to our recovery, and provide HIGH
END RETAIL, and taxes that will make the city whole for decades to come, and we get
Dollar Stores. "Jimmy I wouldn't worry..."

Over all of this, I have seen Gary "worry once" and it was way over the top, when the city
asked you to carry your garbage to the curb, to help underwrite the move from residential And boy did Gary Rice complain, and complain, and complain and complain.
So what would one take from the personnel comment, "Jimmy you shouldn't worry..." but
I am foolish in my concerns, or the concerns of others in the city, and Gary fights the good
fight?

Gary

Many of the founders of this project do not jump in not because they are not worried about
the direction of the city, but because of peer pressure, and threats of one kind or another
over their heads. When you get to see behind the curtain, and see and understand that the
library director was basically run out of town by peer pressure and mindless hatred because
he was the smart guy, you start to evaluate what you say in public. Speak up and watch
your kids get pushed aside in H20 Summer Camp? Watch your smart kid miss advance
classes but one or two points? Get your house cited ever other week for minor problems,
that makes your life hell? How about banding together to work to drive a legal Lakewood
business out of business at all costs, even if it means working and paying big box stores
to come in and help run them out? I have seen School Board members threatened even
with death threats, until they no longer ran for office?

All of this is happening and has happened.

Gary, when am I supposed to not worry?

I am watching a bunch of underachieving overachievers snicker and run Lakewood like
it is their city, now everyone's city. I am watching a small group of people look at Lakewood
as a way to keep their taxes down, even if it means everything south of Clifton becomes a
dollar store.
I am watching a a small group of people trying to prove a point with a plan that is at least
20 years old, foolish and outdated, just to prove they were right and could do it. Even though
as Ken once pointed out, they have never really had any successes in 20 years.

Gary, when am I supposed to not worry?

Some in this city are playing tea party, with no tea in the cups.

When am I supposed to not worry?

Gary, this have given much fodder for discussion, I will spin it off into another two or
three threads.

Gary, peace is how I often sign off. I did not mean I prefer peace to dollar stores.

However I would rather have the apartment back, and the residents, over the dollar stores.

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Jimmy...

I get it already.

You win.

Go ahead and worry.

Seriously, you are certainly well within your rights to have very real and valid concerns about Lakewood, as do I.

In the future, I do not plan to address your particular concerns personally to you on the 'Deck, but will rather try to make my remarks more general in nature. The written word never seems to work as well in a personal interchange as does the spoken word.

As for any more problems between the two of us however?

I wouldn't worry about it Jimmy.

Back to the banjo.

Gary Rice wrote:As for any more problems between the two of us however?

I wouldn't worry about it Jimmy.

Back to the banjo.

Gary

I know we are good, we are adults, we can talk, and not always agree.

But then you are one of many to warn me about retribution of others.

You do play a wonderful banjo, and saw, and guitar, and, and and

And for that we are very lucky in this city, or anywhere you do with it.

Thank you

.

Thank you too Jim.

...and true, I'm not Pete Seeger, but... Pete's not Gary Rice either.

Better get back to that banjo again, while there's still time...

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Gary

***

But then you are one of many to warn me about retribution of others.

***

Thank you

Gary,

What is Jimmy talking about?

Matt

Jim O'Bryan wrote:I post about Lorain working to stop, what they and many cities correctly understand as a
sign of failure, dollars stores in Downtown, and or too many. A sure sign of a failing area
in a failing economy. Go back into the archives and check Kenneth Warren's discussion on
dollar stores when Lakewood got their first two. In it Ken discusses the various dollar
stores and according to their annual reports and investment strategies discuss who they
are aiming their retail outlet at. It also speaks briefly on how other businesses use them
and other thing as a sign of the financial health of a community.

I just spent the last week in the Pacific Northwest and I believe that I mentioned that I used to live there. I really missed it. At the same time, I looked around with a more critical eye at what was around me... I picked Lakewood to live in for myriad reasons, one of which was that it reminded me of all of the good things I loved about Portland, OR- the houses with character, the density, the proximity to services, the overall feel.

I just wanted to share this pic. This is a Dollar Tree in downtown Portland. Like Lakewood (and Cleveland), PDX is full of various pockets of neighborhoods, developments- retail and residential, and it works. This is only one of a few of these stores I saw in the various areas, where they are mixed in with chain stores or restaurants, local stores or restaurants, or like this one.... a store below a mixed use residential building not far from the downtown 'core.' I would hardly call Portland a failing city. Lorain? Perhaps. But honestly, it takes all kinds of development to serve a diverse population. While I am not thrilled with all of the current development on the boards in this city at present, this served as a reminder that it takes all kinds.

Matt:

You would need to ask Jimmy.

Back to the banjo...

Matthew John Markling wrote:

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Gary

***

But then you are one of many to warn me about retribution of others.

***

Thank you

Gary,

What is Jimmy talking about?

Matt

Gary Rice wrote:Matt:

You would need to ask Jimmy.

Back to the banjo...

Jimmy,

Why is Gary warning you about retribution of others?

Matt

Matt:

If you will look at Jim's post, he is making a statement that I, among many, have discussed various topics with him. I do not however, ever personally recall warning Jim about any specific "retributions" that he might face from anyone, but I have often suggested to him in a general sense that positive stuff on the 'Deck would be better than other kinds of stuff.

Back to the banjo.

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