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Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:33 pm
by J Hrlec
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Civic discourse is good


Yes I agree.

It is a shame that "facts" are often wrong, whether on the LO Observer Deck, other forums, or in the government. However, it happens and has been happening throughout history and it is our job to sort it out. I believe anything coming out of those sources has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:This was back before "hyper local news" was branded. All of the other websites around allowed for faux names, and that is absolutely worthless for looking for verifiable truths. Yet as often is the case where there is smoke there is fire.


Still not quite sure how this helps or hinders because I am not sure how city facts rely on knowing the poster, but you have it on the Deck so you might as well market it.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:This project ... it was put together by civic leaders ... that had grown tired of the shenanigans, and needed another assessment tool. Please note I did not say the only or last assessment tool.


Agreed, there are many good Lakewood info sources out there.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Nope, we aren't news but I would like to think we have helped move the bar for civic Civic Discourse up.


I agree, the LO and other Lakewood related websites have helped move up the bar for general civic discourse amongst bopth residents and non-residents

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:17 pm
by kate e parker
i keep seeing "the brand" come up in the discussions on the deck. wtf does "the brand" even mean?

as a resident of lakewood for fort...uh, let's just say a long time, i just figured that lakewood was a super cool place to live. easy to navigate. diverse. full of everything that anyone could need. hell, i could sustain my lifestyle without ever leaving the city.

so many options for everything. even in the winter. super cool.

even with the "draconian laws". even with dollar stores. even with outdoor patios that get in my way. even with the parks closing early (another reason why this city is super cool is the many parks and gardens that i can enjoy every morning...*special shout out to cove park).

see the forest for the trees.

brands are something for cattle, not lakewood. i see "brand" and i hear "pigeonhole" in my head.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:14 pm
by Thealexa Becker
kate e parker wrote:
as a resident of lakewood for fort...uh, let's just say a long time, i just figured that lakewood was a super cool place to live. easy to navigate. diverse. full of everything that anyone could need. hell, i could sustain my lifestyle without ever leaving the city.


But where would you get women's clothes or books or any of the other number of things that most people have to leave the city to shop for?

I know I leave Lakewood regularly to go get the things I can't get in Lakewood. Your statement seems like an exaggeration.

Mr. Juris,

What ordinance was updated? I'm just curious because it seems rational to me that there would have been an existing ordinance about yard sales, presuming that is what you were referring to.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:33 am
by kate e parker
Your statement seems like an exaggeration


you just can't help yourself can you?

i havent had to buy a book since i was smart enough to get a library card. and as far as women's clothes go i do just fine in and around the city. see, i'm sort of a second hand kind of gal and i do very well here through garage and church sales and such. i guess i will concede that point, though, for the ladies and men out there that prefer to shop new.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:11 am
by Thealexa Becker
kate e parker wrote:
Your statement seems like an exaggeration


you just can't help yourself can you?

i havent had to buy a book since i was smart enough to get a library card. and as far as women's clothes go i do just fine in and around the city. see, i'm sort of a second hand kind of gal and i do very well here through garage and church sales and such. i guess i will concede that point, though, for the ladies and men out there that prefer to shop new.


If by "help yourself" you actually mean "buy ladies business attire for work in Lakewood", then no, I cannot help myself. Second hand is nice and all, provided you don't need new clothes.

I will concede the point about the books. I have a Nook. But that was just an example because my father complains about it all the time.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:56 am
by Jim O'Bryan
Thealexa Becker wrote:Mr. Juris,

What ordinance was updated? I'm just curious because it seems rational to me that there would have been an existing ordinance about yard sales, presuming that is what you were referring to.


Thealexa

What Councilman Juris meant by his post was, once again I come to the discussion empty handed but with barbs
and jabs for a residents. I do not need to give you people any reasoning for anything.

There are existing laws on the books for garage sales and they have worked for decades, but for some reason,
and there is always a reason Kevin Butler felt the need to make it really tough on people making ends meet.

REASONS And How Rules Are Made - lets look at them.

Dog Park Barking -
It ends up the reason Rocky River went to court over Lakewood
Dog Park is one man's wife was so bothered by the dog barking that she made her
husband's life hell with her complaining. He then got his whole street involved, when he had
three people on the street that said they could kind of hear the dogs, and would actually
would put their name on something he went and forced, through the squeaky wheel
method to get Rocky River to waste thousands of dollars on a frivolous lawsuit. (The truth
was, cars going by the man's house were louder than the dogs in the park)

Car Control - For years residents on Riverside were hoping for a lower speed limit, as once every 5 months we
have a terrible accident, usually but not always associated with some form of impairment. Well one of them
happened in front of the Planning Director's house, this is back when the word planning actually appeared in the
title, well next day Lakewood crews were out changing traffic patterns, striping the street putting up cones, etc.
Since that time we still average about the same number of accidents, and no one can explain the striping. Ironically the ex-planning director has had two accidents at his house
and one resulted in death since his striping job.

Regionalism - Our last mayor was against regionalism, he often spoke about it, this mayor claims to be against
regionalism, and has often spoken against it. Well the last mayor becomes the County Executive and is the
leader of the region and guess what, He is now a firm believer of regionalism, and his hand chosen mayor is
now too. (This phenomenon is also known in some circles as "smelling the seat." As in a person speak that they
want to look into city managers while they are on council, and the second they start looking like they have a
chance for being mayor (smelling the seat) they decide that "we are lucky right now and do not need a city
manager, but when they are ready to retire will once again suggest it to the city.)

Closing Parks/Taking Away Residents Legal Rights To Assemble In Public Spaces -
A worker says to his boss after spending nearly an hour scraping graffiti off kids slides, "Boy we
really waste a lot of time on cleaning graffiti, we need more people, more money or close the park." His boss
who has been sending workers out of the city between the hours of 9-5 to help a friend says, "Boy you are right
I can't spare anyone else, we are busy as all get out." He goes to council, and suggest it where it is turned over
to a committee of three. One of the three wants to investigate it, and find out "Why should we close a park in
the middle of the city if we do not have to." One of the other two has a family and is underpaid at council and
over worked in his real job and never takes the time to look. The other is just plain lazy with an ego the size
of Texas, and is known for doing what he is told, and loves signing stuff, so he never walks in the parks, and
actually says to someone, "We were told what to do, I do not have to waste time on this." to paraphrase, and votes to close it,
it goes to council, that figures (hopefully) that this committee investigated it, when told one member wants more
time, they sigh, and think "I am not paid enough for this," and vote to close it.

Yard Sales - I am figuring Kevin, or maybe the mayor, there is a person in the Mayor's neighborhood that does
have a constant yard sale. He drives around the city before trash pickup grabs bikes and stuff, and places them
in his yard operating a legal garage sale, every week with signage. Unwilling to single out just the bothersome
person, and tired of looking at the sale, feeling one man's treasure is another man's eyesore, they spend time
that could better be used for other things coming up with a ridiculous policy, that takes the actions of a handful
out on the entire city, then using their leverage and "we are all on the same team" philosophy push it through
council, and in one month we loose use of our parks, and the ability to recycle our used goods in a way that has
been around, well as long as we were able to go into parks until 11 pm.

I am not saying none of these people were not allowed to have those reasons. But I do get a little miffed when
a city spends time and effort to go out of their way to punish residents for no reason, faux reasons, reasons
they are not going to share, or councilman lie about studies and the work they did that never existed.

Speaking of Traffic, if you remember one of the reasons given by the city for taken
traffic lights down on Manor Park the scene now of at least two accidents, one directly
blamed on loss of stop light, was they could not afford to replace those two lights, finds us
now with at least one new light at Spring Garden and Detroit, which has never had traffic
problems with lights at Webb and Larchmont. The only real traffic is because of Dunken
Donuts and that is because their drive thru is on a side street not meant to handle traffic.
So were were misled to about not being able to afford them.

Thealexa, I hope this helps you understand when you look at rules and regulations where they come from.
Here is a list of Loony Laws and how they came to be. Lakewood is no different.
http://www.loonylaws.com/
LoonyLaws.com is your guide to finding outrageous city ordinances and silly state statutes. What is it with these loony laws? If they aren't being enforced why are they still on the books? If they might be enforced how bizarre would we be living under these loony laws? We have collected some of the more jaw-dropping legal mumbo jumbo from various sources -- print and online.

.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:18 pm
by Shawn Juris
Corey, Happy to help. Keep me posted and I'll check my schedule. So long as it doesn't interfere with Jim's conspiracy that I'm trying to destroy the city, then you can count me in.

Thealexa, http://onelakewood.com/pdf/CouncilDocket/DOC6-18-12.pdf page 9 refers to what was on the books already regarding garage sales and what has been proposed. Same can be said of parks honestly. They closed at a certain hour before and that time was revised based on usage and factors that had changed since their adoption. Naturally, much splashier headline to lean on hyperbole that Council is taking away rights.

Jim, Given that you can't even observe what has happened without obscuring it, I would suggest that you leave the mindreading to Kreskin. By the way how much did you have to photoshop that picture on Detroit to create that illusion. Picture tells a thousand words and what that one tells is how willing you are to distort the truth. Keep on screwing up that mission statement, no one can muddle civic intelligence quite like you.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:01 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Shawn Juris wrote:Jim, Given that you can't even observe what has happened without obscuring it, I would suggest that you leave the mindreading to Kreskin. By the way how much did you have to photoshop that picture on Detroit to create that illusion. Picture tells a thousand words and what that one tells is how willing you are to distort the truth. Keep on screwing up that mission statement, no one can muddle civic intelligence quite like you.


Shawn

You continue to come in to attack and say the silliest ass things, but you never come with once ounce of facts
or proof to the many things you have said and sighted as actual?

The only piece of photoshop in that photo is dropping in one "wayfinding sign" period. Shawn McDermott said
the same thing when we were Steve Davis (look in baby you can drive my car thread) he stopped the car
when I took that photo, ZERO photoshop. Yet again a councilman flying fast and loose with facts, but I suppose
that should be expected from the anointed one. You did the same amount of research on that you do on
everything. NONE!

No mind reading, no tricks, just conversations with people that tell the truth to constituents and residents, and
your unwillingness to back it up, what more do I need? YAWN

.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:55 pm
by Shawn Juris
Sure it is. If you think that this is real, then we have much bigger concerns than whether or not you agree with me on some issue about a garage sale.
Tell me what light colored brick building is on the south side of Detroit at the corner of St Charles?
And why would there be a pedestrian button with a telephone pole between the button and the intersection?
And why would any Public Works department ever place not 2 but 6 No Parking signs and 15 Minute Parking signs within what seems to be a 20 foot span.
Let alone have 5 telephone poles there.
And 4 traffic lights within the frame? That takes some serious skill to shoot that.
There must be some optical illusion at play. I'm sure that you'll have a field day with this one, but I'm having a hard time telling what I'm looking at here.
And what's with the 11 gooseneck lights in the upper left hand corner? Seriously does anyone recall there being that many lights in what appears to be north of Lakewood Hospital?
Now here's what it looks like as of the last google photo. If it doesn't work, I'm sure that we can all find it or just stand at the corner of St Charles and look around.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=st+charl ... 5,,0,14.13

I seem to remember walking out to the corner of St Charles shortly after this first run and did not find this photo to be true then. It certainly isn't true now. Just like most of your propaganda Jim. Keep it up, it's entertaining. Like playing what's wrong with this picture.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:48 pm
by Thealexa Becker
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Regionalism - Our last mayor was against regionalism, he often spoke about it, this mayor claims to be against
regionalism, and has often spoken against it. Well the last mayor becomes the County Executive and is the
leader of the region and guess what, He is now a firm believer of regionalism, and his hand chosen mayor is
now too. (This phenomenon is also known in some circles as "smelling the seat." As in a person speak that they
want to look into city managers while they are on council, and the second they start looking like they have a
chance for being mayor (smelling the seat) they decide that "we are lucky right now and do not need a city
manager, but when they are ready to retire will once again suggest it to the city.)


You and I will have to agree to disagree, but I don't think regionalism is bad since without Cleveland as the anchor, the suburbs aren't going to do well on their own.

Closing Parks/Taking Away Residents Legal Rights To Assemble In Public Spaces -
A worker says to his boss after spending nearly an hour scraping graffiti off kids slides, "Boy we
really waste a lot of time on cleaning graffiti, we need more people, more money or close the park." His boss
who has been sending workers out of the city between the hours of 9-5 to help a friend says, "Boy you are right
I can't spare anyone else, we are busy as all get out." He goes to council, and suggest it where it is turned over
to a committee of three. One of the three wants to investigate it, and find out "Why should we close a park in
the middle of the city if we do not have to." One of the other two has a family and is underpaid at council and
over worked in his real job and never takes the time to look. The other is just plain lazy with an ego the size
of Texas, and is known for doing what he is told, and loves signing stuff, so he never walks in the parks, and
actually says to someone, "We were told what to do, I do not have to waste time on this." to paraphrase, and votes to close it,
it goes to council, that figures (hopefully) that this committee investigated it, when told one member wants more
time, they sigh, and think "I am not paid enough for this," and vote to close it.


One thing I noticed is your flair for exaggeration. You see, a lawyer would call restriction of the right to assembly a violation of the First Amendment. Now I don't want to give you ideas for another rant, but you know, what you wrote here just relates to closing parks and is only loosely associated with assembly. So perhaps less melodrama more specificity?

Thealexa, I hope this helps you understand when you look at rules and regulations where they come from.
Here is a list of Loony Laws and how they came to be.


Well now that you called them "loony" I look at them totally objectively, just like you have.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Shawn

You continue to come in to attack and say the silliest ass things, but you never come with once ounce of facts
or proof to the many things you have said and sighted as actual?


This week's headline: Pot calls kettle black. City in shock.

You did the same amount of research on that you do on
everything. NONE!


What I am about to say should apply to everyone.

I think I finally figured out how I want to clarify my problem with you, Jim, and facts. You give "facts" and say that you have the information to back them up, but I have no way of verifying any of it. And I don't think I'm the only one on the Deck who has a problem with this.

In any type of research in any field, the key to having a valid argument is if someone else can replicate your "facts", but since so much of what you have to say seems to be to be things you overheard from other people who you wont name, that's not very useful.

So, to clarify, when I ask you where you got you facts, I want dates, records, names, ordinances, locations of said information, DATA, not just your word. As my boss told me, "trust but verify". And trust only goes so far if you can never verify.

Facts are not opinions, facts are facts. It's an opinion until you can prove it.

No mind reading, no tricks, just conversations with people that tell the truth to constituents and residents, and
your unwillingness to back it up, what more do I need? YAWN

.

As mentioned above, verifiable facts.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:17 pm
by Christopher Bindel
Thealexa Becker wrote:What I am about to say should apply to everyone.

I think I finally figured out how I want to clarify my problem with you, Jim, and facts. You give "facts" and say that you have the information to back them up, but I have no way of verifying any of it. And I don't think I'm the only one on the Deck who has a problem with this.

In any type of research in any field, the key to having a valid argument is if someone else can replicate your "facts", but since so much of what you have to say seems to be to be things you overheard from other people who you wont name, that's not very useful.

So, to clarify, when I ask you where you got you facts, I want dates, records, names, ordinances, locations of said information, DATA, not just your word. As my boss told me, "trust but verify". And trust only goes so far if you can never verify.

Facts are not opinions, facts are facts. It's an opinion until you can prove it.


AMEN!!!!!!

Facts are facts, everything else is hearsay.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:39 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Shawn

I am not talking about optical illusions you are.

I am talking about elected officials either not doing their job.

I am talking about abuse of power and potential theft.

You are the only one going on about nonsense.

Did you go into that park after the committee was convened to assess if it was a real
problem? Or did you just pass it off as what Joe Beno asked for? How many residents did
you ask for an opinion?

Did you ever ask Joe if there was anything he could have done differently with his time, or
why it suddenly became a hassle? While the committee is out did you ask Kevin Butler why
it was no imperative to change a law that was just change a year ago? What had changed?
Or do you not care about the residents, just like you were happy that a brew pub could
come to St. James church as you stated?

Did you do the job you were kind of elected for, or did you do what you were told?

.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:03 pm
by Jim O'Bryan
Thealexa Becker wrote:
Jim O'Bryan wrote:Regionalism - Our last mayor was against regionalism, he often spoke about it, this mayor claims to be against
regionalism, and has often spoken against it. Well the last mayor becomes the County Executive and is the
leader of the region and guess what, He is now a firm believer of regionalism, and his hand chosen mayor is
now too. (This phenomenon is also known in some circles as "smelling the seat." As in a person speak that they
want to look into city managers while they are on council, and the second they start looking like they have a
chance for being mayor (smelling the seat) they decide that "we are lucky right now and do not need a city
manager, but when they are ready to retire will once again suggest it to the city.)


You and I will have to agree to disagree, but I don't think regionalism is bad since without Cleveland as the anchor, the suburbs aren't going to do well on their own.


Thealexa

This was not a debate about the joys of regionalism. I understand that you are anxious to
tie yourself to the anchor called Cleveland. Some of us appreciate the fact that the
community and city has been rated as the best in the region. But maybe you are right
lower the value, and the level and we are equal. Seems odd for a Republican, but.. you're
right. This is about public officials saying "I am not for regionalism" during and election
then after being elected greasing the skids and throwing the door open to regionalism.

It has nothing to do with regionalism, it does have to do with integrity.

Thealexa Becker wrote:
Closing Parks/Taking Away Residents Legal Rights To Assemble In Public Spaces -
A worker says to his boss after spending nearly an hour scraping graffiti off kids slides, "Boy we
really waste a lot of time on cleaning graffiti, we need more people, more money or close the park." His boss
who has been sending workers out of the city between the hours of 9-5 to help a friend says, "Boy you are right
I can't spare anyone else, we are busy as all get out." He goes to council, and suggest it where it is turned over
to a committee of three. One of the three wants to investigate it, and find out "Why should we close a park in
the middle of the city if we do not have to." One of the other two has a family and is underpaid at council and
over worked in his real job and never takes the time to look. The other is just plain lazy with an ego the size
of Texas, and is known for doing what he is told, and loves signing stuff, so he never walks in the parks, and
actually says to someone, "We were told what to do, I do not have to waste time on this." to paraphrase, and votes to close it,
it goes to council, that figures (hopefully) that this committee investigated it, when told one member wants more
time, they sigh, and think "I am not paid enough for this," and vote to close it.


One thing I noticed is your flair for exaggeration. You see, a lawyer would call restriction of the right to assembly a violation of the First Amendment. Now I don't want to give you ideas for another rant, but you know, what you wrote here just relates to closing parks and is only loosely associated with assembly. So perhaps less melodrama more specificity?


Thealexa

I am not a lawyer, but when you have a right for 100+ years, well the parks were created
in the 40s I believe and then for now reason they stop you for going in, especially if you
are one of those people, I would say it falls more to right to use and assemble there,
perhaps my use is wrong but the message is not.

Thealexa Becker wrote:
Thealexa, I hope this helps you understand when you look at rules and regulations where they come from.
Here is a list of Loony Laws and how they came to be.


Well now that you called them "loony" I look at them totally objectively, just like you have.[/quote]

Thealexa

I placed that at the end as proof all laws are not sense in common sense and many come
directly from an experience one person has, so the community pays. It was not to call
these laws loony, it was a method to prove the folly of many law makers.

What is the big mystery from me? I am telling you facts, you have not seen the proof, but
I assure they are facts. I am not quoting studies, nor have I said I did. The councilman did.
I am not causing the loss of park time, the councilman is. I am not stopping something
like the already heavy regulated garage sales, city hall is. I am just amazed that you are
more worried about my proof then city hall's reason. This is as silly as Shawn demanding
to see my book when a 501C3 in Lakewood refused to produce theirs. It is like Bizzarro
World in Superman comics. I am sure you are aware of that.

Give me a call stop by the office, and I am more than willing to show you the proof. If it
is not worthy of you calling it proof, then you can come on the Deck and say, Jim has no
proof. Be a big hero, catch me lying. Make Shawn's millennium.

Chris

I do not sit at meetings and make notes, I am out on the street tracking down stories and
facts. I am not simply passing on things I am told, I am out busting my ass on some of
this. How many times have you been threatened during a council meeting? Well I have
been threatened so many times, it now borders on ridiculous.

.

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:11 am
by Peter Grossetti
I view the "photo in a question" in the same manner I view an editorial cartoon:as an exaggerated view of reality, touched by artistic license, in order make a point. (Were Jimmy Carter's teeth really that big? President Obama's ears really that big?)

Re: Coming Fast And Furious

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:48 am
by Peter Grossetti
Thealexa Becker wrote:Unfortunately, the difficulty with this medium of communication is that it does not always allow for a balanced discussion.


Thealexa - I would assert that this venue most definately DOES allow for a balanced discussion. There is no censorship; no membership fee; no secret club handshake to learn. The problem is that a patheticaly small number of folks take advantage of the opportunity to participate. (I am pleased that you do!)