The Observation Deck

I guess next time my genetic tendency to be sarcastic rises, I will do better to shove it back down. I am in awe of the absolute absurdity of it all. It was not the first post that caused all this posting. Ryan, it is you using religion as an excuse for being homophobic. There it is, I am not afraid to call it what it is. If you were saying God hates blacks, Irish ,etc I would call you out on that. Homophobia is a dangerous thing. There are way too many hate crimes in America. I remember Matthew Sheppard. Maybe it is time to take a long look and try to gain understanding. It is not for you to judge.

It is interesting you use the word homophobic. I do not fear gay people. I don't fear their movement. I really don't fear much actually.

I absolutely do not agree with the gay movement, and I think that it is very dangerous and it makes it easier for uninformed youth to chose that lifestyle over seeking help.

If anyone has fear and hate it appears to be the gay movement, they are afraid of churches that preach the Bible and they are afraid of being put down. Why would they fight so hard for public acceptance?

Just so everyone knows Matthew Sheppard was killed by a couple of freaks that were non religious, they just hated gays. It was horrible, but the media made it look like gays were always the victims, it is great how the media doesn't spend near as much time on cases where there are rapes and murders by gays.

Also Joe, I have not told people not to judge, not once, but that is all I hear, yet you are all judging me, I sure find that fascinating.

Added - In regard to the pigs don't know pigs stink it was just meaning that when anyone spends all their time around a certain mentality they may never know they are wrong. I try to spend as much time either talking or reading on the "other side". I didn't mean it against anyone in particular. I don't know I stink a lot

Ryan, it is not for me to judge. All kinds of people rape and murder. I go get tired of all the references to God. We also have freedom from religion. My only point is argue or disagree we all are supposed to have the same rights. The "gay" agenda that the right is always spouting out against is merely a group of people asking for their rights to be recognized. There is so much discrimination. We as a people need to all be offered equal access. Being homosexual does not make you less of an American, however if you are you are not granted the rights. If two people are in love. Let them marry. They should have the option. How can we call this a free country when this is going on? It is kind of like the Jim Crow laws.
It is so easy to use a excuse to continue to dodge the issue. Agree or not none of us are free while others are oppressed. Live and let live.
Just of the record the amount of hate crimes against Christians in America is very low. Muslims, Jews, Homosexuals, LGBTs, Asians, Blacks, are all victims of hate crimes everyday. If the Romans were in charge and were throwing the Christians to the lions, I would stand up for them as well. I think discrimination based on morality is an arcane way of thinking. We need to see that we are all in this together. one race the human race. Live long and prosper

Ryan,

I have tried to read each of your posts with an open mind.

When I attended McKinley Elementary School one of the basic tenets echoed throughout those years was the golden rule; simple, yes, but it has proved to be an effective guideline for 52 years so far.

Just how exactly is espousing your flagrant disdain for Gay Pride beneficial to anyone or to Lakewood?

I would hope that any person who runs (or has run) for political office in Lakewood would embrace and celebrate the fabric of our spectacularly unique community.
Heidi

Having speech and hearing impediments while growing up as a child was difficult for me. It was even moreso a concern when I wanted to become a teacher. I had to work doubly hard to open minds and change attitudes concerning people who had preconceived notions as to what I might or might not be able to do. I would hope that things are better for challenged young people in part, because of what I, and so many others, had to endure years ago.

On occasion, I give community talks on a variety of topics; from Native Americans...also, on behalf of exceptional needs children... as well as the history of the Holocaust.

The overriding theme that seems to transpire in each of these talks, is the need for dialogue and acceptance of others, over posturing, position-taking, and putting dogmatic principles above people.

As far as so-called biblical laws about this or that are concerned, are there not numerous times that Jesus went against those, showing that the Law of Love was what was to be followed?

Each group of people indeed, has their stories of ill-treatment. We need at least try to listen and learn, so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

I noticed that this topic has inspired over 150 postings.

Passionate postings.

At least we are interacting, and not fighting, however.

Any time that any group of people feels that their rights are violated, it's been my impression that soon after, other groups do, as well.

I'm glad, as Lakewoodites, that we can share our candid thoughts and learn from each other here. This can be a good thing.

I'm not sure if this issue has an easy answer that will satisfy all parties. I would simply suggest that we all watch what we write. It is so easy to post and regret later.

Ryan Salo wrote:If anyone has fear and hate it appears to be the gay movement, they are afraid of churches that preach the Bible and they are afraid of being put down. Why would they fight so hard for public acceptance?

All of the churches that preach the bible are not the same.

Why would anyone want to fight for their civil and human rights?

Is "RomanCatholiphobic" a word?

I understand the religious communities' desire to sway the opinion of a homosexual person(regardless of whether or not I agree with it), but I don't understand the desire of the gay community to gain acceptance in certain religions.

Faith doesn't require popular acceptance. (that's both a positive and a negative)

And I'm still waiting to hear anyone's non religiously based argument of gay marriage being a detriment to society - such that it should be outlawed by our government.

As for a "gay pride day" does anyone really care? Does this actually affect anyone? Is anyone going to go "hey, you know what, I was on the fence, but now that I've seen that nice parade, I think I've finally seen the light!"

I don't know, Brett - some of those parades are pretty darned fun!

But all parades aren't really for the onlookers... I've never seen a St. Patrick's Day parade and decided to turn Irish.

Just for the record, Chicago has a great pride parade. It is the most fun I have ever had in Chicago.

Brett,

I have come across many non religious arguments. Here is one from Bill Bennett.

"If the law recognizes homosexual marriages as the legal equivalent of heterosexual marriages, it will have enormous repercussions in many areas. Consider just two: sex education in the schools and adoption. The sex education curriculum of public schools would have to teach that heterosexual and homosexual marriage are equivalent. Heather Has Two Mommies would no longer be regarded as an anomaly; it would more likely become a staple of a sex education curriculum. Parents who want their children to be taught (for both moral and utilitarian reasons) the privileged status of heterosexual marriage will be portrayed as intolerant bigots; they will necessarily be at odds with the new law of matrimony and its derivative curriculum.

Homosexual couples will also have equal claim with heterosexual couples in adopting children, forcing us (in law at least) to deny what we know to be true: that it is far better for a child to be raised by a mother and a father than by, say, two male homosexuals. "

You can also go to

www.narth.com

for a lot more non religious information. Also read this - they are supposed to be non-religious, but they are sponsored by a bunch of churches, but the data is interesting in the middle.

http://www.unitedfamilies.org/marriageS ... tation.pdf

Hope this helps at least give another view.

And yet it seems that, despite the widespread acknowledgement of and participation in Black History Month, regular history curriculae have not been derailed. Teachers continue to teach history, students continue to learn about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and the landmark events that Americans hold up as defining moments in our history.

Perhaps you see it different, Ryan: Has black history month ruined the teaching of "regular" history?

Earlier you noted that the celebrations I noted were not "genetic dispositions that cause us to do something," which seems to imply that you believe being gay is the result of a genetic disposition that causes people to do something.

Regardless, being black is certainly a genetic disposition that causes people to be black. Have you noticed, since the schools started participating in black history month, an increase in the number of people who are black?

well first, could you specify the basis for asserting any such "privileged status of heterosexual marriage"? How do you argue "privilege" in this case without it stemming from a religious foundation - which would bring us back to square one.

second, as for adoption, even if having a mother and father is the best way to raise a kid (and that's a big, overgeneralized IF), does that rule out everything else. Are you suggesting that a child is better left in a foster home rather than suffer under the care of a homosexual individual or couple?

Your arguments seem to be as solid as saying: being rich is far better than being poor, therefor we should make being poor illegal and socially unacceptable.

Ryan:

Always interesting reading what Bill Bennett has to think. But, I think Bret's (note, 1 "t") issue was:

And I'm still waiting to hear anyone's non religiously based argument of gay marriage being a detriment to society - such that it should be outlawed by our government

Bennett's comments bootstraps the issue. If you don't first assume that gay marriage is a danger to society, then allowing a gay couple to adopt should be of no consequence. It is only after having first made the implicit determination of that societal evil that there should be any concern over a gay couple adopting.

I think what Bret is looking for (if I might be so bold) is some analysis that by "adopting" a gay life style, that eventually there will be a complete loss of human habitation on Earth, due to the lack of reproduction, ala the Shakers.....or something not so transparently circular...

Jeff

Bret,

I take it you didn't read the links. I did not write what Bill said but I assume he meant privileged in the sense that it is best for kids, which has been proven time and time again. I think his points were geared more toward the best for kids rather than best for parents. (obviously there are always exceptions)

michael

I do not think it is genetic, I was just arguing your statement. Please don't even hint that I have a problem with blacks. I would assume that you can see the plain difference of race and sexual orientation. The links and www.narth.com site discuss the choices and life pressures that lead people to gender confusion.

If funny that in well over 150 posts no one has answered the question that Ryan has straight out asked and I insinuated If homosexuality is genetic then what it is the purpose of a parade or a pride week to celebrate homosexuality as a lifestyle? Secondly to answer the question of non-religious argument against gay marriages. I quote from the 10th edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary " marriage: the state of being married; the mutual relation of husband and wife; the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family." I am in favor of civil unions for anyone who wishes to share rights of survivorship, power of attorney or such with anyone they choose but i don't believe we change the meaning of words just to make some people feel better about themselves.