The Observation Deck

You didn't answer my question Sharon. Its not a difficult one. What did you mean by "benefit to all people"?

Personally I've worked on and been successful with the FMLA and the Civil Rights amendement of 1990.

I've placed the first women on road crews with Muny Light, East Ohio Gas, The Illuminating Company. Helped get policewomen and Fire fighter women on the forces and much more along these lines - most of these women were on those dreaded entitlement programs and now are either retired or getting to retire. Worked with the trade unions to get women into all the apprenticeship programs. Helped fund and establish training programs for women looking at non-trad jobs. The things in this paragraph were done when you were just a twinkle in your mama's eye. And at that time (30 years ago) women were very rarely in these jobs. Oh and I worked to help entree the members of the Minority Trades council into the unions.

You? What have you done to make the world a better place.

I didn't ask what you had done. Note: I'm not trying to minimize your work.
You're still not answering the question. I'm trying to get a view into your beliefs. I could make assumptions, but if you'd be clear about it, I wouldn't have to.

Right now, if I'm forced to make an assumption, your assertion that you "believe in things that benefit all people" combined with being a "radical leftie" leads me to places I scarcely want to thing about, because they aren't American ideals.

What have I done? My list is paltry by comparison.
I used to volunteer at the high school. I give money to the church. I believe I go above and beyond at my job. I recycle. I ride my electric scooter whenever the weather allows.

But I also believe that it is up to the individual to do what they can, not up to the state to mandate what the individual must (or must not) do.

Some people don't have the sense that the goddess gave a slug, so it has to be mandated, never assume that every person is as capable as you are.

My beliefs should have shown from the work I dedicated myself to. To make the world a better place when I leave it. To make it safer and more beautiful for my kids, nephew, nieces, your kids, ad infinitum.

I believe that we are all responsible for each other's well being when someone isn't up to the task. I believe in raising people up and seeing that everyone has a fair playing field.

I believe that if you give women a chance to be able to provide for their families, then they will have time to join in to make the world a better place.

I believe we should all have a seat at the table. I believe in doing the next right thing and causing no harm. I believe that you help lift people up that have been beaten down. I believe in action not words.

I believed enough to rasie 3 kids on my own while working for non-profits. I could have made a lot more money but things don't matter people do. I can look my kids in the eyes and say "I love you so much, I did it for you". And now they each do things also.

sharon kinsella wrote:Some people don't have the sense that the goddess gave a slug, so it has to be mandated, never assume that every person is as capable as you are.

Come on Sharon, don't pull any punches. Some people are just too stupid to live, so the government has to step in.
Good and evil, right and wrong were invented for the ordinary, average man...the inferior man, because he needs them.

sharon kinsella wrote:My beliefs should have shown from the work I dedicated myself to. To make the world a better place when I leave it. To make it safer and more beautiful for my kids, nephew, nieces, your kids, ad infinitum.

$13 trillion in debt.
The largest government in American history.
The most people on government assistance.

What a wonderful legacy for you (collectively) to leave to the next generation. As one of that generation, let me step up and say thank you.

sharon kinsella wrote:I believe that we are all responsible for each other's well being when someone isn't up to the task. I believe in raising people up and seeing that everyone has a fair playing field.

I want to agree with the spirit of what you say, but not the rest. It is important to help those less fortunate...

Matthew 25: 35-40 wrote:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

I don't see any reference to the government or Rome or taxes anywhere in that passage. Mandated charity is not charity.

William J. H. Boetcker wrote:You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.

sharon kinsella wrote:I believe that if you give women a chance to be able to provide for their families, then they will have time to join in to make the world a better place.

You'll get no argument from me. Women have a massively important place in the family.

Thank you for sharing. I can see that our sentiments are not so dissimilar. However, where our opinions differ seem to be in the government's role.

You seem to favor the government having a strong hand. Those that seem unable to provide for themselves must be provided for at the forced expense of others.
In a system like that, inactivity and mediocrity is encouraged. Why work when someone else can pick up the check? Why be successful when the government is just going to take a bigger chunk of your money? Eventually, the system dries up when the successful decide its easier to not be so successful.

I favor a government that stands back. Let private interests take the lead. We are a generous and compassionate people. Look at your own experiences. Were you not generous with your time on the Americans with Disabilities Act? But, don't treat the symptoms, cure the disease. Don't give people food stamps or government housing. Give them purpose. There's nothing so satisfying as working hard, accomplishing something and reaping the benefits of a job well done. Allow people to become successful and you strengthen the country as never before.

I favor a government that stands back. Let private interests take the lead.

Oh Yeah, grate plan!! BP, Massee Energy Those guys are really good at not killing people and destroying stuff.

Here you go Roy. There is already a place for you...

http://www.hewnandhammered.com/.a/6a00d ... 970c-800wi

it is okay. it is alright.

Government has already taken the lead for most of U.S. history. distributing cheap bountiful land to millions of settlers. so they can play at being pioneers. get away from the guilds and set out on their own before the seven year apprenticeship is up. Even become railroad barons.

The automobile oligarchs set our highway policy. the shopping mall tycoons set our highway exit ramp policies.

Private industry does call the shots. the fast food chains set our Earl Butz paradigm agricultural policies. the big Retailers and shopping mall developers set our trade policies. most industry and farming is obsolete. but you get a nice toy with your happy meal. Roy, if you peddle enough mortgages, you can buy the Cleveland Cavaliers and then successfully lobby for a casino monopoly. The Taxpayers will even build you an arena.

the historical evidence is that economic "growth" was stronger in years of higher progressive tax rates. the Reaganites have raised Regressive taxes.

The conservative economics professors like to lambast minimum wage as an engine of inflation. By that logic these wider tax cuts(nevermind how) would cause even greater inflation.

don't worry Roy. you haven't lost any opportunities or been cheated out of anything by government. If it were not so, you'd be speaking Shawnee or working for currency with Queen Elizabeth on it.

Roy - please don't quote words from the Bible. I don't believe that the words of men are infallible. I don't believe in the imaginary being that some of you do.

I don't believe in capitalism and the patriarchy, they are all destructive as far as I am concerned.

Raise people up that need a hand.

People need to be forced because so many are selfish. A society is judged by the way it treats it's weakest members.

Trickle down is a joke. Raising up is the only way I believe in.

sharon kinsella wrote:I don't believe in capitalism and the patriarchy, they are all destructive as far as I am concerned.

So, instead you'd rather turn to communism...
Hitler (before you even try to...Nationalist Socialist Party) murdered how many Jews? 11-17 million?
Stalin starved up to 10 million Ukrainians in the Holomodor.
Mao Zedong starved unknown millions.

sharon kinsella wrote:People need to be forced because so many are selfish.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: "Now, what we’re doing, I want to be clear, we’re not trying to push financial reform because we begrudge success that's fairly earned. I mean, I do think at a certain point you've made enough money."

sharon kinsella wrote:Trickle down is a joke. Raising up is the only way I believe in.

How many people can a poor man employ?

sharon kinsella wrote:People need to be forced because so many are selfish.

That was the opinion of Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

The Great Butchers of world history thought it their right to force people to do what is best. That is why they burned jews, witches, fags and heritics, kuhlaks. Your attitude is common among liberals. Liberals have more in common with fascists than they like to admit.


From your friend Stalin:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistor ... stalin.htm

From your friend the People of Turkey:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photointro.html

From a whole bunch of people who agree with you that people need to be forced:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide4.htm

Roy,
You do realize that Hitler was not a communist, right? On the ideological spectrum, communism is to the left, Nazism is to the extreme right, not even close to each other. Nazis are closer to the modern extreme conservative nationalist or tea partiers than to communists ( or by your false logic Democrats and Obama).

Hitler hated communists.

Just wanted to throw some historical accuracy in there.

Bill,
The great butchers of the world come from all political persuasions and ideologies. They're not all communists and Democrats

Bryan Schwegler wrote:Roy,
You do realize that Hitler was not a communist, right? On the ideological spectrum, communism is to the left, Nazism is to the extreme right, not even close to each other. Nazis are closer to the modern extreme conservative nationalist or tea partiers than to communists ( or by your false logic Democrats and Obama).

Hitler hated communists.

Just wanted to throw some historical accuracy in there.

Bill,
The great butchers of the world come from all political persuasions and ideologies. They're not all communists and Democrats

On the contrary, Bryan, the Nazi party is NOT on the "far right".

1. In Germany, Communists and Nazis fought for power. They frequently labeled each other as opposites. Since communism is considered left, many people automatically assume that means nazis are on the right. Despite this...
...in the German election of 1933, the Communist Party was ordered by its leaders to vote for the Nazis -- with the explanation that they could later fight the Nazis for power, but first they had to help destroy their common enemy: capitalism and its parliamentary form of government ("'Extremism,' or The Art of Smearing", September 1964, in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, pg. 180).

2. The German name for what we call the Nazi party is Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Its more literal translation is the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Socialist AND Workers in the name.

3. Check this out:
Nazi party platform adopted at Munich, February 24, 1920;Der Nationalsozialismus Dokumente 1933-1945, edited by Walther Hofer, Frankfurt am Main: Fischer Bucherei, 1957, pp. 29-31

We ask that the government undertake the obligation above all of providing citizens with adequate opportunities for employment and earning a living.

The activities of the individual must not be allowed to clash with the interests of the community, but must take place within its confines and for the good of all. Therefore, we demand:...an end to the power of the financial interests.

We demand profit sharing in big business.

We demand a broad extension of care for the aged.

We demand...the greatest possible consideration of small business in the purchases of the national, state and municipal governments.

In order to make possible to every capable and industrious [citizen] the attainment of higher education and thus the achievement of a post of leadership, the government must provide an all-around enlargement of our entire system of public education...We demand the education at government expense of gifted children of poor parents...

The government must undertake the improvement of public health -- by the greatest possible support for all clubs concerned with the physical education of youth.

[We] combat the...materialistic spirit within and without us, and are convinced that a permanent recovery of our people can only proceed from within on the foundation of The Common Good Before the Individual Good.

Now, in the Constitution of the USSR:

Article 40: Citizens of the USSR have the right to work (that is, to guaranteed employment and pay in accordance wit the quantity and quality of their work, and not below the state-established minimum), including the right to choose their trade or profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities, training and education, with due account of the needs of society.

Article 42. Citizens of the USSR have the right to health protection.

Article 43. Citizens of the USSR have the right to maintenance in old age, in sickness, and in the event of complete or partial disability or loss of the breadwinner.

Article 45. Citizens of the USSR have the right to education.

I color-coded it for you...

Nazism might be considered the right in a European-style government, where totalitarian rule has been prevalent for centuries, but this isn't Europe (yet).

http://www.brookesnews.com/091910hayeknazis.html- written in 1933
http://mises.org/daily/1937
http://www.lawrence.edu/sorg/objectivism/socfasc.html

Roy, You are being silly again...

We are not and will never be Nazi's or Commies...

Even if we have a right to healthcare.

the United States was founded by the greatest property redistribution in history. at the points of guns. it is alright. it was for the good of the people. our people.

European socialism was a reaction to American endowments.
Europe will never be as socialist in words as America was in Deeds.

Every country that was a colony of spain or france went on to be weak or poor because they were founded along the feudal lines of France and Spain.

Most of the class distinctions and professional guild hoops of europe fell away in the immensity and abundance and distance of America and the relative egalitarianism of protestants. you have no idea how much easier we had it.

That being said, there's no reason for President Obama to be negotiating with Arizona. (what kind of name is Arizona? it doesn't sound english. New Cornwall or New Liverpool is a better name for a state). Arizona is just enforcing federal law. just like states have latitude for enforcing drug laws. The Feds can expand the opportunities for Mexicans to become legal residents. or they cannot. that is all.

Roy, again you're still off. Nazism is a political system that is an extreme right-wing philosophy. Capitalism is an economic system not a political system.

You can misquote and take out of context all the excepts you wish, but it still doesn't change the facts.

Nazis have more in common with the neo-cons and Arizonan xenophobes than it does the ultra-liberal left.

For the record, I don't like either side, but I'm not going to let historical inaccuracy stand. I'm a historian at heart.