The Observation Deck

Stephen Eisel wrote:Jim, I cannot do a thing to influence actions of the past. I can however do something about actions that are about to take place.

The boat is sinking and we cannot take on any more water...

My question was did you think we could afford the war?

Did you think that Trillion was OK?

When the best minds in the army are encouraged to leave because we are willing to
pay 5 times more for no accountability, and we pay it! that was OK?

It is OK to kill 200,000+ civilians, because of a slip up? Never mind the cost.

But this next trillion, that is supposed to help you and me this one
has to be stopped? The single payer plan, the work of Satan himself?

You pick the damndest times to get stones.


I am starting to think the world doesn't hate us, or fear us. They think of us as
that loud drunk hillbilly at the end of the bar looking crazy and saying, "You think
you are better than me?" You know the unpredictable one. Takes little Timmy's medicine
money and buys whiskey and viagra! Takes Betty Sue's, school book money and
buys guns. Then wonders why his kids are sick and stupid. Turns and sneers
then beats on someone or some thing nearby.

.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Stephen Eisel wrote:Jim, I cannot do a thing to influence actions of the past. I can however do something about actions that are about to take place.

The boat is sinking and we cannot take on any more water...

My question was did you think we could afford the war?

Did you think that Trillion was OK?

When the best minds in the army we encouraged to leave because of 5 times the pay
as a private army, that was OK?

It is OK to kill 200,000+ civilians, because of a slip up?

But this next trillion, that is uspposed to help you and me this one has to be stopped?

You pick the damndest times to get stones.


.

The US cannot keep on charging the credit card. It is not the job of the Government to take care of its citizens from the cradle until the grave. The Government cannot take control of the healtcare industry.. Did we not learn anything from the Fannie and Freddie? There has got to be a better solution for providing healthcare to the uninsured and under insured..

Stephen Eisel wrote:The US cannot keep on charging the credit card. It is not the job of the Government to take care of its citizens from the cradle until the grave. The Government cannot take control of the healtcare industry.. Did we not learn anything from the Fannie and Freddie? There has got to be a better solution for providing healthcare to the uninsured and under insured..

Why?

Read that.

We cannot afford to take care of our health concerns(bankupting the country)

But we can afford to turn rocks into little rocks? We can afford to fight a war that only exists
to use up weapons. Was started on a lie.

So we learn from Freddie and Fannie what?

It is worst trying to help Americans, than buning money for nothing?

I think one of us is missing something.

We are both talking of history and learning.

I think one of us wants to study all of it so we do not repeat it.

You want to study this democratic faults and issues.

Stephen, this is why this "I am an I" thing is nearly laughable. Because you voted for
Hillary, over Obama does not make you an I. It makes you the rascal you always are.


.

We cannot afford to take care of our health concerns(bankupting the country)

But we can afford to turn rocks into little rocks? We can afford to fight a war that only exists
to use up weapons. Was started on a lie.

No, I am saying that there must be a better way to provide healthcare to the uninsured and under insured short of the US Government taking over the entire healthcare system. I do not believe that the Government has done its due diligence on this subject. That does not mean that I want the Government spending all of its money on wars. If the Government (FDA) is really concerned about our health then why do they let food manufacturers use MSG, BPA, high fructose corn syrup, and allow for some foods to have traces of Mercury in them? I realize that this is just a small part of the picture. But, my spidy senses tell me that this healthcare bill is more about a power grab then it is about helping people.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:

Stephen Eisel wrote:The US cannot keep on charging the credit card. It is not the job of the Government to take care of its citizens from the cradle until the grave. The Government cannot take control of the healtcare industry.. Did we not learn anything from the Fannie and Freddie? There has got to be a better solution for providing healthcare to the uninsured and under insured..

Why?

Read that.

We cannot afford to take care of our health concerns(bankupting the country)

But we can afford to turn rocks into little rocks? We can afford to fight a war that only exists
to use up weapons. Was started on a lie.

So we learn from Freddie and Fannie what?

It is worst trying to help Americans, than buning money for nothing?

I think one of us is missing something.

We are both talking of history and learning.

I think one of us wants to study all of it so we do not repeat it.

You want to study this democratic faults and issues.

Stephen, this is why this "I am an I" thing is nearly laughable. Because you voted for
Hillary, over Obama does not make you an I. It makes you the rascal you always are.


.

Constitutionally, it is the government's job to "provide for the common defense" but the last time I checked (which was about 10 seconds ago) the word "health" was not used in the Constitution and "Care" is only used once...in describing the duties of the president (Article 2, Section 3).

I challenged Sharon on this point before and she decided it was better to imply I had no soul...let me ask you the same thing I asked her.
"Show me how medical insurance/medical care is a constitutional right as described in the first post (Link)."

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Global warming. I believe that about 99.9% of all scientists now believe in global warming.
The major disagreement with some, about 18% last time I read is if it is human caused,
and can be corrected by human intervention.

Did you miss Climategate? The planet has been cooling and warming then cooling since inception. Only the last 10,000 years (if I remember one of those graphs correctly) has the earth been at a somewhat steady temperature. 99.9% of scientists don’t know what causes the warming and cooling other than to say the earth has always done that.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:NCLB, the question is do we teach our kids to hit a preconceived test known before the exam,
or do we teach kids to live in the ever changing world? I am not sure the, we only do this
test or no test concept ever you are throwing out, but it seems pretty extreme. But we might
live in different worlds. Mine is many colors and shades of gray. 16.8 billion is what they
say. It would seem that yours is more black and white, yes or no, up or down.

Teaching kids to pass a test is ludicrous. Those teachers should be fired and license revoked.

Not sure how you would teach kids to live in an ever changing world. I would teach kids real world skills such as how to balance your checking account and other basic finance skills, including how to use credit cards instead of them using you.
I don’t see the world as black and white. Not even black and white is really black and white. Throwing out tests in favor of grading on intentions was a bit of sarcasm. I guess I should make that a little clearer next time. Maybe the Deck needs a sarcasm ‘smilie’?

Jim O'Bryan wrote:I can see many ways that schools have failed or will fail. One is I am of the belief that critical
thought should be taught as early as possible. Teach kids to ask the tough questions, and
really ponder the answers. Others think that kids do not need critical thought until later
in life. After all how early do you want to be asked the tough questions from children? I
also believe that there should be a way to teach physics earlier to children as all science
is ruled by physics so why teach that last? But that is here nor there is this discusssion.

Tough questions are only tough if you are afraid of how it will be held against you in some manner down the road.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Not knowing your experiences I can only speak of mine. Some of the teachers that taught
me the most, gave the least amount of tests. Others, tested often, and had very little
lasting impact on me. However I believe that testing is a good way for teachers to check
progress, perhaps teachers should be tested, and paid for results with kids. Like what
they know and how many move on in school and life. Not sure what it would do for America
but it seems a guage is needed. From what I am hearing NCLB is not the gauge.

The most useful class I ever had was typing. Not a day goes by that I don’t use what I learned. The test for that was black and white, words per minute.

Teachers should be subject to performance evaluations, like most of workers. Reward good performance with good raises and weed out the not so good. Not sure how to objectively evaluate students across a number of subjects if you don't test.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Noe let me preface this by I rarely if ever ask what a person party affiliation is or if the are
liberal of conservative. I have general found that most people in my 16.8 billion color world
are a combination of thoughts, and deeds. There are some exceptions I suppose. It would
seem that you are a conservative R, Ryan Salo a conservative R, Ryan Demro has announced
"Blackwell Republican." I tend to think of myself as a Libertarian, with a huge streak of
social consciousness, that almost forbids me from walking away from those that need help.
Not the abusers of welfare, but those that are down on their luck, or simply unable to fend
for themselves.

I would go even farther to say that I am amazed by anyone that feels the current political
system is really working for anyone outside of the very wealthy and big business. In other
words those that can afford to buy influence.I was watching Ron Paul the other day, and
he once again nailed it saying that those on the inside at Washington, can plainly see it
is one party, with different figureheads, to add to the illusion of choice. I see Obama, as
an extension of Bush's policy with a little more soul, nothing more. As I said to Stephen
no one that works for US should be exempt from answering questions, and accountability.
You idea of once every four years, gives way to much leeway for big mistakes, and bad
management.

You rarely ever ask because you just make an assumption of one’s party affiliation. I am not a registered Republican. I am conservative so naturally I would identify more with Rs than Ds. Not all Rs are evil and not all Ds are either. However, both parties are guilty of spiraling this great country of ours down the drain.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:I hate yet to see a president in my lifetime, that has not screwed up badly. I have not seen
a two term president that has not screwed up really badly. Proving the old adage, "Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."

Presidents screw up but that doesn’t mean they are corrupt.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Time for America to get back on track, and serve the citizens.

Amen.

Roy wrote:

I challenged Sharon on this point before and she decided it was better to imply I had no soul...let me ask you the same thing I asked her.
"Show me how medical insurance/medical care is a constitutional right as described in the first post (Link)."

Just curious Roy. You do work at the library, no?

Do you receive medical coverage as part of your compensation package? You do have health insurance, right?

What if employers no longer offered insurance coverage? If you did not receive coverage through your employer, what would be your next step?

You're young, under 30, would you choose to go without insurance? Would you purchase your own plan? At what price would you choose to forgo coverage and take your chances?

Just curious.

Oh, and since you are young and presumably healthy, do you think your perspective on health care coverage might be clouded by your relatively young age and lack of experience in serious health issues?

Just asking.

Roy Pitchford wrote:I challenged Sharon on this point before and she decided it was better to imply I had no soul...let me ask you the same thing I asked her.
"Show me how medical insurance/medical care is a constitutional right as described in the first post (Link)."

Roy

Oh my god, do you have no soul?

Seriously, I have to believe that at some point, we have to be protected from those destroying
our way of life. It would seem that as the banks and credit card companies are, so is the
health and medical business. While I am not sure that we needed the governnent to step
in decades ago, it would seem that something must be done. There is no logicial sense
that Americans pay more for medicine, than those 500 yards over a border. It makes no
logical sense, that two people walk into an emergency room, and pay thousands of
dollars of differences for the same care. I am not for government intruding into our lives
but someone has got to get this straight it is destroying the fabric of the country.

Roy like Eisel, you pick the damndest times to quote the Constitution. Where in the
Constitution did it give us the right to attack Iraq, either time?

Charlie

Damn

Will give this a try.

Charlie Page wrote:

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Global warming. I believe that about 99.9% of all scientists now believe in global warming.
The major disagreement with some, about 18% last time I read is if it is human caused,
and can be corrected by human intervention.

Did you miss Climategate? The planet has been cooling and warming then cooling since inception. Only the last 10,000 years (if I remember one of those graphs correctly) has the earth been at a somewhat steady temperature. 99.9% of scientists don’t know what causes the warming and cooling other than to say the earth has always done that..

First I generally see anything called "gate" as a way to marginalize the evil that was known
as Richard Nixon. Maybe one of the finest "international" minds ever, but just so wrong in
so many other ways, the term "gate" should never be used again.

Charlie, the majority of scientific thought is that it is happening. The preponderance of that
thought pool is that humans have speed up the cycle you are referring to. No matter ALL
agree that the cycle will drastically change life on this planet as we know it. At that point
it only makes common sense to study it and see if we can have an impact in changing the
cycle. Makes sense.

AS an old man with no kids, I really have no fight in this discussion. But I do believe that
Tom Friedman is right in "Hot, Flat, and Crowded" it provides America a chance to redevelop
our manufacturing and technology base, and as such should be grasped.

Please note, I am sure your house is way more greener than mine.

Charlie Page wrote:

Jim O'Bryan wrote:NCLB, the question is do we teach our kids to hit a preconceived test known before the exam,
or do we teach kids to live in the ever changing world? I am not sure the, we only do this
test or no test concept ever you are throwing out, but it seems pretty extreme. But we might
live in different worlds. Mine is many colors and shades of gray. 16.8 billion is what they
say. It would seem that yours is more black and white, yes or no, up or down.

We agree teaching kids to pass a test is ludicrous. Those teachers should be fired and license revoked.

Not sure how you would teach kids to live in an ever changing world. I would teach kids real world skills such as how to balance your checking account and other basic finance skills, including how to use credit cards instead of them using you.
I don’t see the world as black and white. Not even black and white is really black and white. Throwing out tests in favor of grading on intentions was a bit of sarcasm. I guess I should make that a little clearer next time. Maybe the Deck needs a sarcasm ‘smilie’?

Charlie go back and read my post. How do you train kids for an ever changing world? I
believe it is called critical thinking. Teaching kids this at an early age would do wonders
for everyone, and everything. Of course we live in a society where there is no emphasis
placed on critical thought. Hence the warning on a can of peanuts that the can may contain
peanuts. Test the teachers, look at their results, move the bad ones into management as
has been the case for decades.

Charlie Page wrote:Presidents screw up but that doesn’t mean they are corrupt.

No but we that would be us Americans, really need to know who screwed up, and who is
corrupt. We really need to hold all of them accountable, and we really, really need to know
how it all happened. The screw ups, and the corruption. I am not convinced that GWB
was corrupt. But those feeding him information and ideas, well that is another thing. Of
course when we go back and look at the very first days of GWB in office it would point
more towards corruption. One of the first things he did was seal 41s paperwork for another
50 years, and double the time his was kept secret. To me that shows premeditation.

I find it odd that you want to hold teachers more accountable than presidents!

As we go back to the start of this discussion, "gate" most people still do not understand
what happened there, so it is glossed over. I have no problem with the pardon, have no desire
to see presidents in the big house. But we really need to understand what went on and why?
Otherwise we get "Climategate." 30,000 Americans died because of Richard Nixon needing
to get elected. If we are going to kill 200,000 innocent Iraqis for not killing 2,000 Americans
what should our actions be to understand the murder of 30,000 Americans? Or for that
matter the first 30,000?

I am not looking to hang the presidents, but I believe they should all be accountable, and
their mistakes must all be studied and understood by this country.

Now back to the assumptions, We all make generalizations. It becomes ungodly cumbersome
to say, we'll all of the Rs, and some of the Conservative who back the Rs, and ... So we
all generalize, and we all should get over that as a real issue. The fact remains, you claim
to be a Conservative, and I take you at your word, and from what I know about you I
believe that to be true. So how on earth can the last 8 years be glossed over, while we
now focus, on the nightmare at hand.

The comments should all be from my fellow conservatives and libertarians. This is some broken
stuff and it desperately needs to be fixed. Our posturing should not change because of who is
in office that week?

My point in this with Stephen, and maybe Roy and you is. If we are going to make mistakes
why not make them in a way that actually benefits all Americans? Instead of a small
handful of contractors. If you were unwilling to hold 43 accountable for jacking up the
debt for turning big rocks into little roack and genocide, then why get upset and cry
now, that it might actually shore up the American people. (For the record I have health care)

The war in Iraq was illegal, the war in Afghanistan is wrong The fight against Al-Quida is
a good one, but should be understood, and done in a way that is much more cost effective
than it is now. The effort to bring banks and health care in line with reality is a good one.
In my humble opinion.

FWIW


.

Charlie Page wrote:Quote from Bill's link:

This is in the spirit of liberalism. They are basically saying "we all can't be smart so lets make everyone equally less smart". Only in California Why wait until high school to provide remedial schooling?

The main reason liberals don't like NCLB is that it creates accountability. Liberals don't like accountability. They'd much rather be measured on intentions not results.

This is in the spirit of national pride and competition. continual grade deflation for the sake of collective ego inflation.

NCLB doesn't create accountability. It creates more hoops to jump through. and greater incentive to lie about success: Texas is notorious for this.

NCLB just creates an impetus for spending more money on a bunch of computer junk. software, hardware, networks. it all takes contractors. Even Neil Bush got in on it.

The only real accountability would be flunking teenagers out of school. or putting them on probation. send them to the fields or quarries or mills or canneries for a summer. they'll appreciate the value of education. or they will drop out and work.

NCLB is an apologia for all these free trade deals. George placates with words about the "jobs of the future". whatever cannot be outsourced is marginalized to work for illegal immigrants. The voters can't know that the work we outsource and the work we subsidize with illegal immigrant labor is the true value creation. So there is BS talk about "standards" for education. Bush can understand this: despite being one of the first MBA presidents, he has had to go through life knowing he is less intelligent, less strong, less brave, less successful, and less moral than his parents, grandparents, and great grandparents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR3eUjD6y6o

[quote="Grace O'Malley"]Roy wrote:
[quote]I challenged Sharon on this point before and she decided it was better to imply I had no soul...let me ask you the same thing I asked her.
"Show me how medical insurance/medical care is a constitutional right as described in the first post (Link)."[/quote]

Just curious Roy. You do work at the library, no?

Do you receive medical coverage as part of your compensation package? You do have health insurance, right?

What if employers no longer offered insurance coverage? If you did not receive coverage through your employer, what would be your next step?

You're young, under 30, would you choose to go without insurance? Would you purchase your own plan? At what price would you choose to forgo coverage and take your chances?

Just curious.

Oh, and since you are young and presumably healthy, do you think your perspective on health care coverage might be clouded by your relatively young age and lack of experience in serious health issues?

Just asking.[/quote]

Why are you so frightened by the idea of someone taking responsibility for their own life?

Medical insurance is just one of a raft of perks that employers use to attract employees. Not all employers offer it, just as not all employers offer legal insurance or 30 days of vacation. When one looks for a job, shouldn't one be free to place one's own value on those perks? Or are you some kind of prospective commissar that wants to make those choices for us?

That's the point Will, you are free to reject that coverage if you prefer, yet I don't see too many people doing so.

Particularly those who are against any reform in health care.

But I didn't expect you to get it.

Grace O'Malley wrote:That's the point Will, you are free to reject that coverage if you prefer, yet I don't see too many people doing so.

Particularly those who are against any reform in health care.

But I didn't expect you to get it.

key word free LOL

Grace O'Malley wrote:Just curious Roy. You do work at the library, no?

Yes, I do.

Grace O'Malley wrote:Do you receive medical coverage as part of your compensation package? You do have health insurance, right?

Full-time employees do, yes. I believe that part-timer's can pay in to get on the plan as well.

Grace O'Malley wrote:What if employers no longer offered insurance coverage? If you did not receive coverage through your employer, what would be your next step?

You're young, under 30, would you choose to go without insurance? Would you purchase your own plan? At what price would you choose to forgo coverage and take your chances?


Just curious.

Shop around, look for a plan that fits with what I can afford given my salary. I would say its doubtful I would choose to go without, but, if I did choose not to get coverage, isn't that my choice to make? If I then get gravely ill or injured, shouldn't I then deal with the consequences of my inaction?
It is my responsibility to do what I must to survive. It is my choice to help others.
It is not the government's responsibility to provide for me, to force me to provide for myself or to force me to provide for others.

Grace O'Malley wrote:Oh, and since you are young and presumably healthy, do you think your perspective on health care coverage might be clouded by your relatively young age and lack of experience in serious health issues?

Just asking.

That sounds like a loaded question, but you know what, I'll answer anyways.

Sure, my perspective could be cloudy. Since I've graduated college in 2002 and left my parent's insurance, I've had one doctor's visit and needed one prescription.

However, my resistance to the current health care legislation has much less to do with my experience with health care and more to do with how it relates to our rights and freedom.

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Seriously, I have to believe that at some point, we have to be protected from those destroying our way of life. It would seem that as the banks and credit card companies are, so is the health and medical business. While I am not sure that we needed the governnent to step in decades ago, it would seem that something must be done. There is no logicial sense that Americans pay more for medicine, than those 500 yards over a border. It makes no logical sense, that two people walk into an emergency room, and pay thousands of dollars of differences for the same care. I am not for government intruding into our lives but someone has got to get this straight it is destroying the fabric of the country.

You want cheaper health care? Look at what Tim Liston wrote. I'll quote part of it:

My family has a high-deductible insurance plan coupled with an HSA. Last fall my oldest daughter hurt her hip and the orthopedist recommend an MRI. Since I'm spending my own money, I shopped around. I was able to get the MRI for $250. I'm not telling you where (or how).

I bet you I can get five stitches for under $200. Not sure about the broken arm.

Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?

Jim O'Bryan wrote:Roy like Eisel, you pick the damndest times to quote the Constitution. Where in the
Constitution did it give us the right to attack Iraq, either time?

The Constitution gives Congress the right to declare war, Article 1 Section 8. In the case of both there does not appear to be a formal declaration, rather there was an "Authorization of the Use of Military Force", but both were still fully authorized by the Congress.
Such declarations are not unusual, even in the early days of the United States. The Quasi-War under John Adams, the First Barbary War under Jefferson and the Second Barbary War under Madison were declared the same way.
Note: Jefferson and Madison, two men very key in the writing of our Constitution. If these wars, and wars like them, were unconstitutional, don't you think they would have stepped in?

The second Iraq War has been unpopular from the start, I know.
Hmmm, Congress NOT following the wishes of the people they were elected by. I can't imagine where I've heard that before.

Now, let me say this again and say it clearly: I do not oppose reform. I oppose this plan for reform.

[quote="Grace O'Malley"]That's the point Will, you are free to reject that coverage if you prefer, yet I don't see too many people doing so.

Particularly those who are against any reform in health care.

But I didn't expect you to get it.[/quote]

So your solution to my freedom is to take it away?

My children chose to reject coverage under college health plans, or their summer jobs (in those rare instances where it was offered) because they had coverage under my plan. I chose to refuse coverage under Medicare and another health plan because it duplicated coverage I already had. And I have no problem with someone who chooses a health savings account and/or high deductible coverage; its their life, and the only way it affects me is that you entitlement firsters have mandated abandonment of any reliance on individual charity and replaced it with an extortionate government plan, which promises to grow more and more burdensome. I'm not opposed to hospitalization insurance, but I am opposed to the proposal for a once-size-fits-all policy being imposed on us by the government. Medicare and Medicaid are already out of control because the beneficiaries are all spending someone else's money; if it was their own money, they would shop around for less expensive services, and decline some of the freebies (Do 90-year old men get Viagra? What do they do with it?) Why is it that the elderly who demand more services get absolutely nothing from their children, whose idea of helping out a parent consists of helping them fill out an application and conceal their assets? If you think our community spirit is declining, I think that the cause is our having done so much to destroy the family unit.

You shouldn't have expected anyone to get it because you haven't done a very good job of making it make sense.

I do not oppose reform. I oppose this plan for reform

Roy, they can only see in black and white. Chartreuse is not visible in their sight spectrum