The Observation Deck

Roy, I was replying to this statement of yours:

However, what of Charlie's statements was applicable to the right?

And the answer is: all of it. It's not a malady exclusive to liberals. Left and right both ignore or try to explain away embarrassments and scandal when it reflects negatively on them, and magnify and exaggerate the failings of their political foes. It's the way of the world. That's why at least two parties are needed, and why well-read individuals sample media written by the left and the right (as the concept of a disinterested, independent media that holds both ends to the same standards seems to be a chimera

We don't really need to have a multipage thread where individual moral and ethical failings of members representing each party are enumerated, do we? No side would 'win' because there's an endless font of bad behavior in any direction you look. Would that really solve anything?

Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe were reported to have visited 5 previous Acorn offices and been thrown out of them. you're bound to find an office with lower-quality people.

it is like Burger King. Sometimes you go to a burger king, and the staff are all terrible and nasty. but I keep going to other Burger Kings. They have a strong Brand. I know that beef production, potatoes, and animal feed crops are heavily subsidized, and that illegal immigrants do a lot of the work in the fields and feedlots and slaughter houses. But I am an American, and I deserve a whopper junior and freedom fry for 2 dollars.

Acorn does some good work. they help people avoid signing up for the springboard ARM mortgages. it was hard in recent times to not be approached by mortgage brokers and lenders from all over who will spot you the funds for a house. when folks are selling junk and looking good doing it, the customers line up. the process was divided up into roles. everyone got their commissions. mortgage broker. realtor. lender. loan servicing bank. then sell the loans to the geniuses on Wall Street who shuffle them up into high-earning assets. the yield on the bonds was set to hit 18 percent. It was a sure thing! And the investment banks is now a publicly traded corporation! that means you can bid up the stocks even faster than their bonds. If you are the right kind of genius you can make 100 million dollars on Wall-Street trading these mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps!

Here are how many abortions Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe have prevented: zero. the surest way to prevent abortions is to raise girls to be strong and smart enough to not fall for the first boneheads who hit on them. Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe have prevented as many abortions as Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush combined. That is why Fox News will be responsible for more abortions in the future: Fox News lowers intelligence and emotional stability.

Jim DeVito wrote:Charlie, You just described the right during the last presidency. Nobody is better or smarter or more worthy than the other. In the end we all just take turns being butt heads

The whole presidency? Come on Jim. This selective outrage happens way more on the left than right. Most people don’t see it because it’s not carried in the mainstream media. You’re not going to find stories calling for an investigation of ACORN in the Huffington Post either. And when it’s reported here, people duck away or say it’s a few bad apples.

What I really despise is when the opposing party feels the need to jump on their white horse immediately after something butt headish is done. They demand an apology or resignation of the offender all the while acting like they are really genuinely appalled at what happened. It’s really sad but somewhat amusing.

sharon kinsella wrote:When Charlie page is making liberal bashing statements and standing up for the stalwart right wingers, he's speaking for the right.

Liberal bashing statements? I guess the truth hurts.

I don’t believe anything I said should be interpreted as standing up for the right. Merely an observation that this Deck is stacked with liberals, mainstream media ignores unflattering acts on the left along with most liberals.

ryan costa wrote:Acorn does some good work. they help people avoid signing up for the springboard ARM mortgages. it was hard in recent times to not be approached by mortgage brokers and lenders from all over who will spot you the funds for a house. when folks are selling junk and looking good doing it, the customers line up. the process was divided up into roles. everyone got their commissions. mortgage broker. realtor. lender. loan servicing bank. then sell the loans to the geniuses on Wall Street who shuffle them up into high-earning assets. the yield on the bonds was set to hit 18 percent. It was a sure thing! And the investment banks is now a publicly traded corporation! that means you can bid up the stocks even faster than their bonds. If you are the right kind of genius you can make 100 million dollars on Wall-Street trading these mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps!

So we could have avoided the whole housing/credit crisis and resulting economic downturn if there was more ACORN?

Charlie Page wrote:So we could have avoided the whole housing/credit crisis and resulting economic downturn if there was more ACORN?

If there were less Reagan and Greenspan and Rand and Friedman, yes.

it was Jesus Christ who overturned the tables of the Money Traders. Today we do have the instruments of the Wall Street technocrats, fox news, glenn beck, sunday morning televangelism.

There is no America in the bible. But there is Johnny Appleseed in America. He pioneered a currency backed by apple orchards and honest free labor. This is in contrast to the slave labor and globalist leanings of the southern states.

Jim DeVito wrote:I am sorry Roy I just don't see what the story is. There is a left leaning origination with a few bad apples that have the ear of the president.

"A rotten apple spoils the barrel."
How many bad apples do you want to hear about?

We've got the 2 women in Baltimore, 2 in Washington DC (all 4 fired thus far), 2 in Brooklyn (the city DA is now investigating ACORN) and a man and woman in San Bernadino.

ACORN is under investigation in at least 14 different states for voter fraud and there's the 30+ people convicted so far.

The Census has severed their ties with ACORN.
The Senate voted 83-7 to pull Federal HUD funds from ACORN.

Brian Pedaci wrote:Roy, I was replying to this statement of yours:

However, what of Charlie's statements was applicable to the right?

And the answer is: all of it. It's not a malady exclusive to liberals.

Point taken.

ryan costa wrote:Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe were reported to have visited 5 previous Acorn offices and been thrown out of them. you're bound to find an office with lower-quality people.

it is like Burger King. Sometimes you go to a burger king, and the staff are all terrible and nasty. but I keep going to other Burger Kings. They have a strong Brand. I know that beef production, potatoes, and animal feed crops are heavily subsidized, and that illegal immigrants do a lot of the work in the fields and feedlots and slaughter houses. But I am an American, and I deserve a whopper junior and freedom fry for 2 dollars.

Acorn does some good work. they help people avoid signing up for the springboard ARM mortgages. it was hard in recent times to not be approached by mortgage brokers and lenders from all over who will spot you the funds for a house. when folks are selling junk and looking good doing it, the customers line up. the process was divided up into roles. everyone got their commissions. mortgage broker. realtor. lender. loan servicing bank. then sell the loans to the geniuses on Wall Street who shuffle them up into high-earning assets. the yield on the bonds was set to hit 18 percent. It was a sure thing! And the investment banks is now a publicly traded corporation! that means you can bid up the stocks even faster than their bonds. If you are the right kind of genius you can make 100 million dollars on Wall-Street trading these mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps!

Here are how many abortions Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe have prevented: zero. the surest way to prevent abortions is to raise girls to be strong and smart enough to not fall for the first boneheads who hit on them. Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe have prevented as many abortions as Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush combined. That is why Fox News will be responsible for more abortions in the future: Fox News lowers intelligence and emotional stability.

ryan costa wrote:

Charlie Page wrote:So we could have avoided the whole housing/credit crisis and resulting economic downturn if there was more ACORN?

If there were less Reagan and Greenspan and Rand and Friedman, yes.

it was Jesus Christ who overturned the tables of the Money Traders. Today we do have the instruments of the Wall Street technocrats, fox news, glenn beck, sunday morning televangelism.

There is no America in the bible. But there is Johnny Appleseed in America. He pioneered a currency backed by apple orchards and honest free labor. This is in contrast to the slave labor and globalist leanings of the southern states.

Ryan, with all due respect, where do you pull this stuff from? Do you have a magic hat or something? We are talking about ACORN and somehow you start trying to tie in abortion, Johnny Appleseed, farm subsidies and illegal immigration.

ryan costa wrote:it was Jesus Christ who overturned the tables of the Money Traders.

Are you suggesting that Obama is Jesus/the messiah?

Roy Pitchford wrote:
Ryan, with all due respect, where do you pull this stuff from? Do you have a magic hat or something? We are talking about ACORN and somehow you start trying to tie in abortion, Johnny Appleseed, farm subsidies and illegal immigration.

ryan costa wrote:it was Jesus Christ who overturned the tables of the Money Traders.

Are you suggesting that Obama is Jesus/the messiah?

Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe played the prostitute and the pimp in the video posted. They are also known for trying to pay organizations to provide abortion services for minorities. this raises the ire of people pre-occupied with voting for candidates who claim to be something called "pro-life".

Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe are vanguards of the reactionary neo-con movement. something about getting rid of "big government". or something. Tea Parties. That is why the subsidies and illegal immigrant labor that fuel some of our biggest corporations and fast food franchise "brands" seem relevant. Who is against big government and illegal aliens? Illegal Aliens are okay if you can make money off of them.


The folks who made the most money from making bad housing loans and trading abstract financial instruments cobbled together from mortgages and side-bets against them...logically exercised the greatest influence in shaping laws that enabled that. Some government officials in Cleveland tried to stop or curt-tail these lending practices. the big lenders went to the state and encouraged the state to not allow Cleveland to do this.

The geniuses who made the most money in the mortgage-backed security meltdown and credit default swap meltdown were loaded. they were in the highest tax brackets. They needed enough votes to lower the top tax rates. They claimed the taxes were diminishing their incentive to "work harder". These geniuses are the money changers. stocks and mortgage backed securities and california electricity futures and mutual fund shares and credit default swaps are just a higher tier of money.

Although the Reagan Administration raised most american's taxes he is still heralded as a champion of common people. The Tea Partyers are looking for another Ronald Reagan.

Across the bible belt and other areas the voters are shepherded into the voting bloc. The shepherds were televangelists and fox news boobs. Scum like Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe. They claimed the democrat candidates wanted bigger government, wanted teenagers having sex and abortions, were against "Freedom", wanted to raise their taxes, wanted the terrists to win, wanted everyone to be gay.

I never suggested President Obama is like Jesus.

all the evidence is that trash like Hannah Giles and James O'keefe are doing the work opposite of Jesus. Hannah Giles and James O'Keefe have no value. They are bad people. They are villains. As Steve Allen would say, they bring out the Dumbth in people.

ryan costa wrote:

Charlie Page wrote:So we could have avoided the whole housing/credit crisis and resulting economic downturn if there was more ACORN?

If there were less Reagan and Greenspan and Rand and Friedman, yes.

it was Jesus Christ who overturned the tables of the Money Traders. Today we do have the instruments of the Wall Street technocrats, fox news, glenn beck, sunday morning televangelism.

There is no America in the bible. But there is Johnny Appleseed in America. He pioneered a currency backed by apple orchards and honest free labor. This is in contrast to the slave labor and globalist leanings of the southern states.

I was wondering when you were going to play the Reagan card. Seems like everything bad you always trace back to him. It’s like playing six degrees of separation. Instead of Kevin Bacon, it’s Reagan and instead of people it’s increased taxes, ACORN and the housing crisis.

Jesus overturned their tables because they were doing business in the temple courts, not because of what they were selling. What’s that have to do with Wall Street, fox, Glenn Beck, etc?

Charlie Page wrote:I was wondering when you were going to play the Reagan card. Seems like everything bad you always trace back to him. It’s like playing six degrees of separation. Instead of Kevin Bacon, it’s Reagan and instead of people it’s increased taxes, ACORN and the housing crisis.

Jesus overturned their tables because they were doing business in the temple courts, not because of what they were selling. What’s that have to do with Wall Street, fox, Glenn Beck, etc?

The business in the temple courts was changing coins. they were charging a sinful exchange rate favoring the jewish and tyrian coins. only those coins could then be redeemed for religious ceremonies and the endorsement of the clerics. It was worse than the Peter Frampton concert where they expected people to buy seven tokens for seven dollars to pay for a single beer costing 7 tokens.


Reagan's policies were those of sin: raise taxes on the working class and poor. lower taxes for megamillionaire wall street scoundrels, corporate raiders, michael milken, American liquidators, outsourcers. hyper-subsidize sprawl.

The televangelists and Glenn Beck and Fox News and Rush Limbaugh con faithful people into voting for the interests of the sinners listed above. If you are like me, you have older relatives who lost much of their retirement funds to the wall-street NeoCon chicanery. Maybe also you have older relatives whose jobs were outsourced, or whose neighborhoods were marginalized in the wake of hyper-subsidized sprawl.

ACORN is a large organization employing many marginal people in marginal areas. Hannah Giles(the prostitute), and James O'Keefe(the pimp) went to great lengths to bring out the worst in people. Human nature being what it is, people from all socioeconomic walks of life will generally do the wrong thing when an enthusiastic dastard like Hannah Giles, James O'Keefe, Kenneth Lay, or Ronald Reagan tries talking them into it.

Much political bloc forming is made of pitting Science against the Genesis section of the Old Testament. Those herded into the Genesis bloc - or some new paganism called 'creation science' - are then gulled into voting for social darwinism economic policies. the junkfood is cheap for a while. tv will rot your brain. infotainment is cheaper than ever. we are the nation of oil addicts and epidemic obesity. there is no competing with russia or china or japan. Our currency ran on momentum...liquidated over a few decades of neocon chicanery.

Charlie Page wrote:Jesus overturned their tables because they were doing business in the temple courts, not because of what they were selling. What’s that have to do with Wall Street, fox, Glenn Beck, etc?

ryan costa wrote:The business in the temple courts was changing coins. they were charging a sinful exchange rate favoring the jewish and tyrian coins. only those coins could then be redeemed for religious ceremonies and the endorsement of the clerics. It was worse than the Peter Frampton concert where they expected people to buy seven tokens for seven dollars to pay for a single beer costing 7 tokens.

I still don't get your argument. Its called the free-market.

I remember when I used to collect baseball cards. I'd get my hands on the latest Beckett magazine and be happy with the value of my collection. Then, my mom would kill my buzz: "They are only worth what someone is willing to pay you for them."
How very true.
If you are really thirsty, a beer will be worth $7 to you. Maybe its worth $10. Or, maybe the quenching of your thirst is only worth $5 and you'll find something else you can do to deal with it.

ryan costa wrote:ACORN is a large organization employing many marginal people in marginal areas.

Exactly. Thank you.
Don't you think that's a problem? Shouldn't our tax dollars be going somewhere with better than marginal people?

ryan costa wrote:Hannah Giles(the prostitute), and James O'Keefe(the pimp) went to great lengths to bring out the worst in people.

I disagree. I think the "worst" in those people came out far too easy, pointing to them being, as you said, "marginal people".

ryan costa wrote:Human nature being what it is, people from all socioeconomic walks of life will generally do the wrong thing...

If that's what you think, Ryan, I pity you. I can't imagine what could have happened for you to feel that way.

Senate Republicans claim Acorn got about 50 million dollars in federal funding between 1994 and 2008. Most of those years featured a Republican dominated Congress and/or a Republican President. 50 million over 14 years is a miniscule portion of what could be considered "Waste". Pentagon weapons development programs and contracts often go billions of dollars overbudget.

It is all well and good to reduce the size of Acorn and cut off their funding. There's no point in disbanding it though. We don't disband televangelism or catholicism or college football teams every time spectacular impropriety occurs. A few people from every socioeconomic class will be bad apples: usually the higher up on the ladder they are the more spectacular catastrophes they engineer while gaining fortunes.

In America we worship a perception of the Frontier Spirit, or something. The frontier, from the western edges of the 13 colonies onward. Each settlement was built on political insiders and other elites doing their best to invoke federal or state approval for charters, licenses, grants, funding, acreage, and a preferential price.

Since modernity struck, voters have most consistently voted to subsidize sprawl and highways. Big developers can even get tax abatements and funding to build new shopping centers and office buildings: the ones built 20 years ago got dirty. The dixiecrats can move to the suburbs and become Republicans. blue collar laborers and technicians can move to the suburbs and become republicans. and vote for Reagan to raise their payroll taxes. they needed bigger houses and yards to park the cars and place televisions. wider roads to get to the mall and the big box retailer.

The informal mutual economic dependencies described as the "invisible hand" of the "free market" become obsolete. Those were the informal checks and balances on civility. The Cities are a new frontier. only this time guns are cheaper and everyone has a stereo. Americans worship the Frontier Spirit.

ryan costa wrote:Senate Republicans claim Acorn got about 50 million dollars in federal funding between 1994 and 2008. Most of those years featured a Republican dominated Congress and/or a Republican President. 50 million over 14 years is a miniscule portion of what could be considered "Waste".

You're absolutely right. I don't like that the republicans allowed it either. Also, I don't believe I ever referred to it as 'waste'.

ryan costa wrote:It is all well and good to reduce the size of Acorn and cut off their funding. There's no point in disbanding it though.

I agree, there is no point to disbanding, but it will end up being done anyways. The name ACORN has been tainted and it has been exposed. Its founders will go underground for a while and create a new group to perform the same functions.

50 million over 14 years is about 3 million a year. we can assume much of that went to helping kids practice reading, coaching parents to encourage kids to study, and the like.

Bush's Faith Based Initiative doled out billions of dollars a year. if you turn over enough rocks you will find millions of that going to hotel rooms, booze, people watching porn on computers at bible schools, and things of that nature.

American Catholic Priests have gotten away with worse in recent memory. typically: homosexual child rape. so have the bishops who cover for them. the public hasn't converted to Anglicism. how many of those funds went to the catholic church, or to organizations that had contributed to Jack Abramoff.

When the Catholic Church was an advocate of labor Unions, the working poor, progressive income taxes, and the abolition of war, Democrats enjoyed the catholic vote. When the Catholic Church kept getting caught committing homosexual child rape, Republicans courted their vote. Acorn has a shorter shelf life.

Acorns sins or shortcomings stand for themselves. The conservative pundits try to make Acorn Synonymous with the Democrats or with the President. There is a much stronger case for making sinners like Enron, AIG, Blackwater, and Halliburton synonymous with the Cheney Administration. The injury of the sins of Enron, Blackwater, Halliburton, was much greater to America.


Acorn has done a lot to help homeless veterans register to vote.

Who will help the Homeless Veterans of the Future register to vote?

One time I register to vote at the library: there are all kinds of trashy patrons there watching music video, myspace, and softcore porn on the computers.

One time I register to vote at a suburban BMV: there are trashy people there waiting in line.

ryan costa wrote:Acorns sins or shortcomings stand for themselves. The conservative pundits try to make Acorn Synonymous with the Democrats or with the President.

Maybe because our current president worked for them and said that (paraphrasing) 'even before I'm inaugurated, you will have a place at the table to shape my agenda.'

ryan costa wrote:Acorn has done a lot to help homeless veterans register to vote.

I'm sure they have, but they've also helped the Dallas Cowboys vote in Florida, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and countless other imaginary and duplicated individuals.

ryan costa wrote:One time I register to vote at the library: there are all kinds of trashy patrons there watching music video, myspace, and softcore porn on the computers.

Don't know what library you're going to.

Roy Pitchford wrote:Maybe because our current president worked for them and said that (paraphrasing) 'even before I'm inaugurated, you will have a place at the table to shape my agenda.'

Did you even watch the video you posted? Obama was talking to a group of community organizers that INCLUDED ACORN, not exclusively to them.

The actual quote:

during the transition, we're going to be calling you all in to help us shape the agenda. We're going to be having meetings all across the country with community organizations so that you have input into the agenda...

Community organizations understand best the needs of the people they serve. Why wouldn't a President want to listen to them to set some goals for his administration?
Politicians are subject to the lobbying pressures of the richest people all the time. I'm trying hard to come up with some reason to be outraged that he bothered to listen to lobbyists for the poorest people, and I'm just not coming up with any.

I'm sure they have, but they've also helped the Dallas Cowboys vote in Florida, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and countless other imaginary and duplicated individuals.

Interesting. I remember the issues with voter registration. Do you have any reports of Mickey or Donald actually showing up to vote?

The bottom line is that ACORN appears to be an organization with noble ideals that's too big to efficiently manage itself. They set goals, but offer minimal training or oversight, then act surprised when some people take unethical means to meet those goals. Nothing uncovered has proven a culture of corruption at the top levels of the organization, only at the bottom (and damn if people haven't been trying, every day, for about two years now). I was supremely unimpressed with Bertha Lewis' performance in Chris Wallace's interview where she repeatedly dodged Rep. Issa's request that they show some transparency and accountability that grant money received went towards the intended purpose. It also does not impress me that they have selected former MA AG Scott Harshbarger to run their internal audit. They could more effectively silence their critics by selecting an outside, impartial auditing firm and completely opening their books to show whether or not there are efforts in place to 'firewall' each constituent organization's funds as claimed. But until they do, by choice or subpoena, there is not enough evidence to proclaim them guilty prematurely.